Peter Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 At this point there is no way Rex can be brought back unless we r willing to completely tear apart our expensive and talented defensive players. Time for Arecibo to move on. Just the opposite. Bye Mario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 Correct, there's little argument that under Schwartz the 2015 defense would have been better. But based on past history, it would have fallen very quickly. To me one defense needs world class DLs, the other needs one smart player to set the plays. And island corners, and a great lb and brainy safety and some sort of all world player leader like Lewis/Reed/Scott and..... Let's not pretend Rex needs nothing but an on field coach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 (edited) Correct, there's little argument that under Schwartz the 2015 defense would have been better. But based on past history, it would have fallen very quickly. To me one defense needs world class DLs, the other needs one smart player to set the plays. when Whaley went out and got shady, clay, and Harvin, it looked like they were setting up for a 2-year run. Regardless of who coached, they were going to have cap issues. The optimal choice over that period should've been to keep the D philosophy intact. Are you seriously saying Ryan's D only needs one smart player to make it work? Edited December 24, 2015 by TPS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 i am a total team guy and hate this type of thing. The truth is everyone doesn't have to truly buy in they just have to contribute. Eric Wood has no need to comment on this and this is where being part of a team he needs to realize he just needs to hush. really? with all the comments made, now Wood is out of line, sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 really? with all the comments made, now Wood is out of line, sure. Wood should be smart enough to see the issue - if it is Mario, as it seems. If that is the case and Wood can realize it and he wants to foster team and handling it as a team than he should be mum. He should not have to say anything to anyone about anything. Let Mario Williams ostracize himself without others being involved or pushing him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 Are you seriously saying Ryan's D only needs one smart player to make it work? I'm saying that all this year's defense needed was that one smart player. All top defenses need very good players, but looking at how Rex constructs his defense, once it's in place, it's an easier plug & play model year after year than Schwartz's system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 I'm saying that all this year's defense needed was that one smart player. All top defenses need very good players, but looking at how Rex constructs his defense, once it's in place, it's an easier plug & play model year after year than Schwartz's system. thats a real stretch, one smart player. It didn't look like he did a good job of plug n play after 2010 despite constantly drafting D in R1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manther Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 Normally I would feel the same way as you but Rex is an utter disgrace. We went from having a great defense to one that totally sucks. The drop off was not due to injury. It was due to lies and idiocy. Agreed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 thats a real stretch, one smart player. It didn't look like he did a good job of plug n play after 2010 despite constantly drafting D in R1. His defenses were ranked above #10 only once in 5 seasons after 2010. BTW, his current rank at 21 in Buffalo is only 4 spots lower than Schwartz's career average. Which coach's next defense is likely to deviate to his norm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manther Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 oh l agree. What I don't get is why he dogged it so much. Film don't lie. Other teams will all see that. Of course someone will sign him, but it may impact which team signs him and for how much. He knew he would be gone anyway if he didn't restructure. All he had to do was tell the Bills he didn't want to restructure instead of acting like this.Maybe Mario thought he couldn't get cut unless he sucked this year? Maybe he thought this offseason was a good time for one more big contract? I am confident his agent would want that. Some agents are greedy at the expense of the player. I would think with this oor year Mario could get $25 million guaranteed for 3 or 4 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 His defenses were ranked above #10 only once in 5 seasons after 2010. BTW, his current rank at 21 in Buffalo is only 4 spots lower than Schwartz's career average. Which coach's next defense is likely to deviate to his norm? whats your criteria for ranking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 whats your criteria for ranking? I think I can preempt your next question Schwartz's defenses averaged #17.5 in Yds against in his career - #19 in Pts against Rex - #6 in Yds against in his career - #13 in Pts against In any statistics you look at, Rex is a better defensive coach. He just sucked this year by thinking he could impose his will on the defense. But chances are that his defenses over time will be better than Schwartz's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 I think I can preempt your next question Schwartz's defenses averaged #17.5 in Yds against in his career - #19 in Pts against Rex - #6 in Yds against in his career - #13 in Pts against In any statistics you look at, Rex is a better defensive coach. He just sucked this year by thinking he could impose his will on the defense. But chances are that his defenses over time will be better than Schwartz's. As I think you now, I'm skeptical of points allowed. The 2013 Bills D was 20th in points allowed but 4th overall according to Football Outsiders DVOA system. If you dig into the numbers that year, the Bills offense was at the bottom of the league in length of drives/3rd down pct and consistently put the Bills D in horrible field position--the Bills D had the first or second worst drive start position to deal with in the entire league. But that D was excellent in points per drive allowed, yards per drive allowed, and plays per drive. With that offense, the 2013 D was playing with one arm behind its back on the points allowed front. Anyway, how a team's offense performs has a huge and largely hidden effect on points allowed by the D. And let's not forget that the Bills' 2013 special teams was epically bad, which also affected the D's start position and points allowed total. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in Chicago Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 (edited) In any statistics you look at, Rex is a better defensive coach. He just sucked this year by thinking he could impose his will on the defense. But chances are that his defenses over time will be better than Schwartz's. I am surely not willing to risk yet another season or two to find out. The NFL has repeatedly proven that a single season turnaround is possible (Bowles). Given that the talent this year was not lower than in 2014 (save for maybe Spikes), there is really no reason for the D to have fared as badly as it did. Can you imagine RR saying in his interview that 'my Ds are better over the long run than Schwartz's, but be prepared for pain in the next 1-2 seasons as I instill my brand on the D.'. If he did then whoever hired him is an idiot. And if he did not, then RR needs to be fired for not performing according to what he promised. As I think you now, I'm skeptical of points allowed. The 2013 Bills D was 20th in points allowed but 4th overall according to Football Outsiders DVOA system. If you dig into the numbers that year, the Bills offense was at the bottom of the league in length of drives/3rd down pct and consistently put the Bills D in horrible field position--the Bills D had the first or second worst drive start position to deal with in the entire league. But that D was excellent in points per drive allowed, yards per drive allowed, and plays per drive. With that offense, the 2013 D was playing with one arm behind its back on the points allowed front. Anyway, how a team's offense performs has a huge and largely hidden effect on points allowed by the D. And let's not forget that the Bills' 2013 special teams was epically bad, which also affected the D's start position and points allowed total. I agree with the general thought that the 2013 was repeatedly put in bad field positions and did not have the opportunity to dominate. But I would also say that the run D was not very good. I would still take that D over this year's, but all said and done, the 2014 D is what would have gotten us to the playoffs this year. Mario took his money and stopped playing. That is on Mario. He stopped playing this year. He excelled after his huge contract and prior to this year. Lets not pretend otherwise. You likely keep him this year but are looking at needing to spend a top 60 pick on DE to keep it up longer term. Depends on the coaches for 2016. I think Mario cannot work any more with the current D staff. If the coaches stay, Mario should be traded. Restructure Mario and you'd be fine. Cut McK. Draft another LB and we'd be cooking again. With no changes to the coaching ? Edited December 25, 2015 by Fan in Chicago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 I am surely not willing to risk yet another season or two to find out. The NFL has repeatedly proven that a single season turnaround is possible (Bowles). Given that the talent this year was not lower than in 2014 (save for maybe Spikes), there is really no reason for the D to have fared as badly as it did. Can you imagine RR saying in his interview that 'my Ds are better over the long run than Schwartz's, but be prepared for pain in the next 1-2 seasons as I instill my brand on the D.'. If he did then whoever hired him is an idiot. And if he did not, then RR needs to be fired for not performing according to what he promised. I agree with the general thought that the 2013 was repeatedly put in bad field positions and did not have the opportunity to dominate. But I would also say that the run D was not very good. I would still take that D over this year's, but all said and done, the 2014 D is what would have gotten us to the playoffs this year. He stopped playing this year. He excelled after his huge contract and prior to this year. Lets not pretend otherwise. The thing about the 2013 D that was so good was the 57 sacks - an incredible number. Sacks are huge because most of the time they're effectively turnovers -- teams usually have to punt after one occurs. The Bills D was second in yards per drive and 5th in plays per drive, but because they were 30th in field position on drive starts (due to the bad offense--31st in time per drive and 28th in points per drive), they were 20th in the percentage of drives resulting in scores (despite being 9th in turnovers forced per drive). The run D was bad, but the phenomenal pass rush more than covered for it, I think. Opponents' collective passer rating that year was a very low 74.9, and the Bills were in the top 2 or 3 in that category. And it's of course a passing league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 I am surely not willing to risk yet another season or two to find out. The NFL has repeatedly proven that a single season turnaround is possible (Bowles). Given that the talent this year was not lower than in 2014 (save for maybe Spikes), there is really no reason for the D to have fared as badly as it did. Can you imagine RR saying in his interview that 'my Ds are better over the long run than Schwartz's, but be prepared for pain in the next 1-2 seasons as I instill my brand on the D.'. If he did then whoever hired him is an idiot. And if he did not, then RR needs to be fired for not performing according to what he promised. I agree with the general thought that the 2013 was repeatedly put in bad field positions and did not have the opportunity to dominate. But I would also say that the run D was not very good. I would still take that D over this year's, but all said and done, the 2014 D is what would have gotten us to the playoffs this year. He stopped playing this year. He excelled after his huge contract and prior to this year. Lets not pretend otherwise. Depends on the coaches for 2016. I think Mario cannot work any more with the current D staff. If the coaches stay, Mario should be traded. With no changes to the coaching ? My post on the top 60 pick was in reply to keeping Schwartz I believe. Someone was calling his scheme unsustainable due to personnel cost. You'd spend a high pick and phase out either Mario or Kyle after next year depending on if value was DT or DE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 Changing the argument? The argument is which coach & scheme would best set the team for a perpetually strong defense and winning program. Rex has had perpetual strong defenses. Not perpetual winning programs. Because of reasons stated above. My argument is that Jim could have maintained stronger defensive performances if he got the assets allocated to his defenses like Rex did. Also, Jim Schwartz took over the worst team in NFL history as an HC. Rex took over a 9-7 roster. Let's not pretend like they had equal circumstances. Im jumping into this convo late.....so if I am missing the point I apologize......but that is exactly what we did in Buffalo as well...through all of our financial resources draft picks etc into our defense That is probably why the Pegulas thought Rex was a good fit......because we biult this team (not scheme wise) much the same way Rex has had teams in the past. The one thing Rex did right.....he brought in Greg Roman and let him do his thing which resulted in improvement in the offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 My post on the top 60 pick was in reply to keeping Schwartz I believe. Someone was calling his scheme unsustainable due to personnel cost. You'd spend a high pick and phase out either Mario or Kyle after next year depending on if value was DT or DE. I'm saying it's not as sustainable as Rex's system based on historical fact that Schwartz's teams weren't able to sustain their success year after year. You may argue that it would have been different in Buffalo in 2016 and 2017, but Schwartz's resume says otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 Im jumping into this convo late.....so if I am missing the point I apologize......but that is exactly what we did in Buffalo as well...through all of our financial resources draft picks etc into our defense That is probably why the Pegulas thought Rex was a good fit......because we biult this team (not scheme wise) much the same way Rex has had teams in the past. The one thing Rex did right.....he brought in Greg Roman and let him do his thing which resulted in improvement in the offense. We've drafted offensive players with our last 3 first round picks, so not really. Also, the Pegulas thinking "we have a good defense with talent so Rex is a good fit" is exactly why their decision was stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 We've drafted offensive players with our last 3 first round picks, so not really. Also, the Pegulas thinking "we have a good defense with talent so Rex is a good fit" is exactly why their decision was stupid. I guess your trying to count Sammy Watkins as 2 first round picks in this formula? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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