dave mcbride Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 I didn't know that. I didn't see the game and just barely remember the incident. I just watched the replay after I googled it on YouTube. So I take back that it was unintentional if that is what he was doing. He didn't really try to trip him from the replay just alter the return. If he did do it intentional and altered the play, I would say he deserved a one game suspension and I know the rule is that Jones would have been awarded a TD. But he didn't alter the play so I guess the 100,000 fine was about right. Did he admit he was watching the jumbotron? I couldn't tell that's what he was doing I just looked and saw his back turned. Definitively a crappy thing to do that could have been way worse. Ha. I responded to that both above and below. I didn't know it was intentional. Yes that's a terrible thing to do and he should have been suspended if it affected the game one bit. It didn't so the fine was about right I guess. If he would have even cost jones one yard I think a one game suspension was in order. http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000289505/Jones-dodges-Tomlin-on-big-kick Jones would definitely have scored on that play if not for that. Tomlin's act cost the Ravens a TD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Not even in the same ball park. One is a premeditated act involving multiple people that occurred over multiple games, if not multiple years in an effort to deliberately circumvent league rules for the sole purpose of gaining an unfair advantage. The other was a one time in-game infraction against the rules, akin to a deliberate face mask penalty or Deacon Jones head slap. One is cheating, one is a dirty player. Don't worry, Tommy Boy has his experience taking cheap shots as well: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Jones would definitely have scored on that play if not for that. Tomlin's act cost the Ravens a TD. Nonsense. He didnt even change his run. I watched it a bunch of times, and we know he didn't because Cris Colinsworth said he did. The defender was right on him. It doesn't matter in our conversation though, because if I saw it like you do, and he did change his return, then Tomlin should have been suspended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) Nonsense. He didnt even change his run. I watched it a bunch of times, and we know he didn't because Cris Colinsworth said he did. The defender was right on him. It doesn't matter in our conversation though, because if I saw it like you do, and he did change his return, then Tomlin should have been suspended. Of course he did. He cut back inside (which is FREAKING OBVIOUS, Dog), and that small cutback forced him to lose a step and allow a slower player (Cortez Allen) to catch up to him. Jacoby Jones was actually GAINING on the defender behind him right up until Tomlin forced him back in slightly. The first thing Jones did when tackled was get up and point back to Tomlin because he knew that he had cost him a TD. To reiterate, it's FREAKING OBVIOUS. Watch this but pay attention at the :15 mark, where he has to cut it back inside. Edited August 14, 2015 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Of course he did. He cut back inside (which is FREAKING OBVIOUS, Dog), and that small cutback forced him to lose a step and allow a slower player (Cortez Allen) to catch up to him. Jacoby Jones was actually GAINING on the defender behind him right up until Tomlin forced him back in slightly. The first thing Jones did when tackled was get up and point back to Tomlin because he knew that he had cost him a TD. To reiterate, it's FREAKING OBVIOUS. Watch this but pay attention at the :15 mark, where he has to cut it back inside. I watched it over and over. He came an inch or two away from running out of bounds before he even got to Tomlin and then felt the guy behind him. Players all the time feel guys and angle toward the middle. He never breaks stride. Sure he saw Tomlin and I don't know what was in his head. I can't say for sure obviously. And I saw him pointing of course but of course that is what a guy is going to do. From my POV, and I have no skin in this game whatsoever on this play. Tomlin did a crappy thing and should have been suspended if it altered the play. I see Jones nearly going OB before he got to Tomlin and never breaking stride and the defender was going to catch him. People see plays differently all the time. You could be right. But again, the answer to your question is just for that, which was intolerable if it affected the play and game, should get a guy suspended a game for IMO. There is no excuse for it. It's not gamesmanship. It's cheating and altering play and intolerable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 I watched it over and over. He came an inch or two away from running out of bounds before he even got to Tomlin and then felt the guy behind him. Players all the time feel guys and angle toward the middle. He never breaks stride. Sure he saw Tomlin and I don't know what was in his head. I can't say for sure obviously. And I saw him pointing of course but of course that is what a guy is going to do. From my POV, and I have no skin in this game whatsoever on this play. Tomlin did a crappy thing and should have been suspended if it altered the play. I see Jones nearly going OB before he got to Tomlin and never breaking stride and the defender was going to catch him. People see plays differently all the time. You could be right. But again, the answer to your question is just for that, which was intolerable if it affected the play and game, should get a guy suspended a game for IMO. There is no excuse for it. It's not gamesmanship. It's cheating and altering play and intolerable. Fair points. Whatever we think would have happened, I think both of us are in basic agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Ohhhhhhh that makes so much more sense now. He's been criticized constantly within the sports law community for filing Clarett's suit in Manhattan, where he lost badly on appeal. There is no doubt that the 8th Circuit's antitrust law is much more favorable to plaintiffs, and that was the main claim in Clarrett's suit. Maybe he's just using this to save face? Some thoughts from Florio: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/13/a-lose-lose-outcome-in-brady-case-remains-possible/. Your thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Some thoughts from Florio: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/13/a-lose-lose-outcome-in-brady-case-remains-possible/. Your thoughts? For K9, it confirms the nflpa only has the report, not the raw interviews etc.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Some thoughts from Florio: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/13/a-lose-lose-outcome-in-brady-case-remains-possible/. Your thoughts? Judge Berman could do all of those things. As an aside, I was thinking about Jastresmki or McNally. There is no doubt that they did not do what they did without Brady's blessing. The Judge even remarked on this. Nevertheless, I think that it is going to be VERY hard to get either one of those guys to appear without subpoena power. That might be one reason they are no longer employed by the Pats. When they were employed by the Pats, the NFL had at least "some" leverage - and even that leverage did not get the Pats lawyers to agree to produce them again after Wells' team discovered the texts. Also, both of those guys live in New England surrounded by Pats' fans. Pats' fans are on an all out crusade defending Brady -- in front of courthouses, on the internet, and especially on PFT (where their comments do not appear to be removed unlike those of us that have a contrary opinion). I wonder whether Jastresmki or McNally are/would be concerned about retaliation from other Pats' fans if they were to testify as to Brady's involvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Judge Berman could do all of those things. As an aside, I was thinking about Jastresmki or McNally. There is no doubt that they did not do what they did without Brady's blessing. The Judge even remarked on this. Nevertheless, I think that it is going to be VERY hard to get either one of those guys to appear without subpoena power. That might be one reason they are no longer employed by the Pats. When they were employed by the Pats, the NFL had at least "some" leverage - and even that leverage did not get the Pats lawyers to agree to produce them again after Wells' team discovered the texts. Also, both of those guys live in New England surrounded by Pats' fans. Pats' fans are on an all out crusade defending Brady -- in front of courthouses, on the internet, and especially on PFT (where their comments do not appear to be removed unlike those of us that have a contrary opinion). I wonder whether Jastresmki or McNally are/would be concerned about retaliation from other Pats' fans if they were to testify as to Brady's involvement. Absolutely they would be in danger. Not only that, but even if McNally hated Brady, he probably loves the Patriots like we love the Bills. He would not want to be known as the guy who ruined Brady's career. No way IMO these guys talk. Unless under oath in a courtroom with threat of jail, which will never happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Some thoughts from Florio: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/13/a-lose-lose-outcome-in-brady-case-remains-possible/. Your thoughts? Chris Mortonson stated on a radio interview yesterday that this judge has a history in arbitratiion cases of ruling for the arbitrator. He nearly unanimously (66 out of 68) ruled in favor of those authorized to make an in-house determination (outside of the formal legal system). The judge is strenuously trying to get the parties to work out an agreement. If they can't then his inclination (as evidenced by his record) indicates that Brady has a higher legal hurdle to overcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) Chris Mortonson stated on a radio interview yesterday that this judge has a history in arbitratiion cases of ruling for the arbitrator. He nearly unanimously (66 out of 68) ruled in favor of those authorized to make an in-house determination (outside of the formal legal system). The judge is strenuously trying to get the parties to work out an agreement. If they can't then his inclination (as evidenced by his record) indicates that Brady has a higher legal hurdle to overcome. Interesting. Where did Mortonsen get his info from, I wonder? EDIT: If Mortonsen said that about Berman alone, it's not accurate: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:TsLCSrqAS9IJ:www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/patriots/2015/08/06/deflategate-judge-tom-brady-new-england-patriots/31256089/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk Following Brady’s June 23 appeal hearing, the players association offered to accept a fine for non-cooperation but no suspension. The NFL did not respond. Should the decision be left to Berman — who has committed to ruling by Sept. 4 — the NFL has on its side an overwhelming history of courts upholding arbitration decisions. In a 2013 article in New York Dispute Resolution Lawyer, three attorneys reviewed arbitration cases in the Southern District from 2005-11. In the 68 labor and employment awards they studied, only two were denied confirmation. God, this looks remarkably like this thread! http://forums.colts.com/topic/39306-deflategate-central-one-thread-merged-moderated/page-59 Edited August 14, 2015 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Bills Fan Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 There are times I think Brady is going to win and other times I think the NFL will Man this seems to be going back and forward CBF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Interesting. Where did Mortonsen get his info from, I wonder? He talked to a number of people who follow the legal scene in that jurisdiction. The judge's history is not out of the ordinary. In arbitration cases or cases coming out of management/labor agreements the courts usually give deference to the results of the established process. Mortonson made the point that it would be wrong to read too much into the judge's pointed questions to both sides. That is more of a prod to get the parties to settle. Ultimately his focus will be on the process rather than the facts of the case. As I said in the prior post Brady has the higher hurdle to overcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Interesting. Where did Mortonsen get his info from, I wonder? EDIT: If Mortonsen said that about Berman alone, it's not accurate: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:TsLCSrqAS9IJ:www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/patriots/2015/08/06/deflategate-judge-tom-brady-new-england-patriots/31256089/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk Following Brady’s June 23 appeal hearing, the players association offered to accept a fine for non-cooperation but no suspension. The NFL did not respond. Should the decision be left to Berman — who has committed to ruling by Sept. 4 — the NFL has on its side an overwhelming history of courts upholding arbitration decisions. In a 2013 article in New York Dispute Resolution Lawyer, three attorneys reviewed arbitration cases in the Southern District from 2005-11. In the 68 labor and employment awards they studied, only two were denied confirmation. God, this looks remarkably like this thread! http://forums.colts.com/topic/39306-deflategate-central-one-thread-merged-moderated/page-59 Thank you for the above link. The bottom line is what legal issue(s) is the judge going to emphasize. There are some people who think the arguments are clear and one sided. It's not. You know which side I am standing one. But I still believe that Brady has the higher hurdle. One legal analyst who teaches sports law, Michael McCann is teaching a course centering on this case and the legal issues associated with it. http://www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/legal-analyst-it-was-a-good-day-for-new-england-patriots-tom-brady Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Brady might have bigger troubles http://www.aol.com/article/2015/08/13/tom-brady-and-gisele-bundchen-keep-quiet-amid-split-rumors/21222586/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl10%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D-225073631 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Brady might have bigger troubles http://www.aol.com/article/2015/08/13/tom-brady-and-gisele-bundchen-keep-quiet-amid-split-rumors/21222586/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl10%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D-225073631 Ah, the world of celeb gossip, where the slightest of arguments between a couple immediately gets interpreted as a prelude to a nasty divorce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Brady might have bigger troubles http://www.aol.com/article/2015/08/13/tom-brady-and-gisele-bundchen-keep-quiet-amid-split-rumors/21222586/?icid=maing-grid7|main5|dl10|sec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D-225073631 How could she possibly believe his denials of adultery or any other wrongdoing after LosingWeightGate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) Ah, the world of celeb gossip, where the slightest of arguments between a couple immediately gets interpreted as a prelude to a nasty divorce.Yes but he did fly with Ben Affleck and his new nanny/slut to Vegas for who-knows-what? Edited August 14, 2015 by PromoTheRobot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 If Tom cannot trust Ben Afleck's nanny, who can he trust? What is this world coming to when you cannot trust the nanny to keep quiet when you take her on a private jet to Vegas?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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