Chef Jim Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 I'm fine with either term being used. I'm not sure how many people see 'free education' and don't understand that its paid for by taxes. As far as why your taxes shouldn't go towards children being educated, because you don't plan to have children. That heads down a slippery slope. My own personal opinion is that I believe in tax funded services that better the whole of society, even if I don't plan to use them. I believe a certain level of education benefits the whole of society. Children?? College students are children? Well they've proven themselves to be babies recently but they are far from children. Here are my issues with college education being for the good of society and because of that should be paid for by society argument. There are so may different degrees that people can get. Many of them are absolutely worthless and benefit society very little if at all. There are people with worthwhile college degrees that they make useless through there actions or inactions. College is a choice and if people have made a choice to attend they or their families should be responsible for the cost. Look at all the eff ups in this country with either a legitimate or throw away degree that have a lot of skin in the game. Just imagine the results if they had no skin in the game. Sucking billions of dollars out of the pockets of citizens for college will be a terrible investment IMO. And if I need to pay for your child's community college or vocational school because you can't afford or cant figure out how to pay for it just tells me you should not of had children in the first place So what to do? Make college affordable not free. The problem has been the incredible rise in college costs over the past several years. College has become a for profit industry and they like many other industries have become greedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Children?? College students are children? Well they've proven themselves to be babies recently but they are far from children. Here are my issues with college education being for the good of society and because of that should be paid for by society argument. There are so may different degrees that people can get. Many of them are absolutely worthless and benefit society very little if at all. There are people with worthwhile college degrees that they make useless through there actions or inactions. College is a choice and if people have made a choice to attend they or their families should be responsible for the cost. Look at all the eff ups in this country with either a legitimate or throw away degree that have a lot of skin in the game. Just imagine the results if they had no skin in the game. Sucking billions of dollars out of the pockets of citizens for college will be a terrible investment IMO. And if I need to pay for your child's community college or vocational school because you can't afford or cant figure out how to pay for it just tells me you should not of had children in the first place So what to do? Make college affordable not free. The problem has been the incredible rise in college costs over the past several years. College has become a for profit industry and they like many other industries have become greedy. Unfortunately yes, children. 18 year olds aren't properly informed or educated to understand the fiscal consequences of taking on various student loans, because keeping them ignorant is profitable, and its directly tied to what you mention later in your post, that college has become a huge for-profit industry. So the question is, how do you make college more affordable? Implement regulations? Tax credits? (generally speaking, I don't think healthcare or education should be for-profit industries, but I know most here disagree with me on that... I'm open minded to solutions that make the cost of participation cheaper, though, since its more likely that both sides of the aisle would come together on that, vs 'socialism') Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Unfortunately yes, children. 18 year olds aren't properly informed or educated to understand the fiscal consequences of taking on various student loans, because keeping them ignorant is profitable, and its directly tied to what you mention later in your post, that college has become a huge for-profit industry. So the question is, how do you make college more affordable? Implement regulations? Tax credits? (generally speaking, I don't think healthcare or education should be for-profit industries, but I know most here disagree with me on that... I'm open minded to solutions that make the cost of participation cheaper, though, since its more likely that both sides of the aisle would come together on that, vs 'socialism') Oh come on man. So 17 and 18 year olds are making decisions on how to pay for their college themselves? If you have a kid who is 17 or 18 and you're leaving it up to them on how to pay for their college you should not only not be allowed to have kids you should be beaten severely about the head. There are tons of things people can do to figure out how to pay for college but I get it. All those other very important things like iPhones, 500 satellite channels, the two new cars every three years, etc, etc are getting in the way of funding your own child's college. I'm not sure how to make college more affordable, it's not my area of expertise but at the end of the day shouldn't that be the battle cry instead of making it "free"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalin Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 The "Giants troll" is in reference to "Very Wide Right" as a screen name for a "Bills" fan. He tolls on the main board too. Somehow he and Tom got into it about 911 and the Pentagon. I skipped over a lot of that inanity like I do so many of the verbal fights between two or three posters. Okay, I get it now. Wide right = Giants. Got it. I remember when he was trolling Tom about the Pentagon & 911. That was inferior trolling as well. Like I said earlier, what is it with kids today? (cue Paul Lynde.......) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Oh come on man. So 17 and 18 year olds are making decisions on how to pay for their college themselves? If you have a kid who is 17 or 18 and you're leaving it up to them on how to pay for their college you should not only not be allowed to have kids you should be beaten severely about the head. There are tons of things people can do to figure out how to pay for college but I get it. All those other very important things like iPhones, 500 satellite channels, the two new cars every three years, etc, etc are getting in the way of funding your own child's college. I'm not sure how to make college more affordable, it's not my area of expertise but at the end of the day shouldn't that be the battle cry instead of making it "free"? I was one of those kids that was left to my own devices on how to pay for school, and what path to take. Not every kid has great parents, unfortunately, and I think you're overestimating the wealth of people if you think they're buying two cars every three years on average. The solution isn't to berate the parents choices 18 years ago, because that doesn't help the kid 'figure it out' in the now. It's why I'm a big advocate of 'real world' education in high school. Things like teaching children how to balance a checkbook, what apr is, what credit cards, school loans, mortgages are. General home-ec, cooking basics, home repair basics, etc. Guidance on choices when it comes to education and employment, instead of simply yelling at children that they NEED to get a Bachelors in ANYTHING, make sure they understand that there are trade school options, that there are jobs that you can get with an Associates, that some majors are worth more than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Miner Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 I was one of those kids that was left to my own devices on how to pay for school, and what path to take. Not every kid has great parents, unfortunately, and I think you're overestimating the wealth of people if you think they're buying two cars every three years on average. The solution isn't to berate the parents choices 18 years ago, because that doesn't help the kid 'figure it out' in the now. It's why I'm a big advocate of 'real world' education in high school. Things like teaching children how to balance a checkbook, what apr is, what credit cards, school loans, mortgages are. General home-ec, cooking basics, home repair basics, etc. Guidance on choices when it comes to education and employment, instead of simply yelling at children that they NEED to get a Bachelors in ANYTHING, make sure they understand that there are trade school options, that there are jobs that you can get with an Associates, that some majors are worth more than others. So replace ****ty parents with public education? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 I was one of those kids that was left to my own devices on how to pay for school, and what path to take. Not every kid has great parents, unfortunately, and I think you're overestimating the wealth of people if you think they're buying two cars every three years on average. The solution isn't to berate the parents choices 18 years ago, because that doesn't help the kid 'figure it out' in the now. It's why I'm a big advocate of 'real world' education in high school. Things like teaching children how to balance a checkbook, what apr is, what credit cards, school loans, mortgages are. General home-ec, cooking basics, home repair basics, etc. Guidance on choices when it comes to education and employment, instead of simply yelling at children that they NEED to get a Bachelors in ANYTHING, make sure they understand that there are trade school options, that there are jobs that you can get with an Associates, that some majors are worth more than others. You nailed it. I wish someone had guided me to go to school for auto mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 I was one of those kids that was left to my own devices on how to pay for school, and what path to take. Not every kid has great parents, unfortunately, and I think you're overestimating the wealth of people if you think they're buying two cars every three years on average. The solution isn't to berate the parents choices 18 years ago, because that doesn't help the kid 'figure it out' in the now. It's why I'm a big advocate of 'real world' education in high school. Things like teaching children how to balance a checkbook, what apr is, what credit cards, school loans, mortgages are. General home-ec, cooking basics, home repair basics, etc. Guidance on choices when it comes to education and employment, instead of simply yelling at children that they NEED to get a Bachelors in ANYTHING, make sure they understand that there are trade school options, that there are jobs that you can get with an Associates, that some majors are worth more than others. This is all fine and dandy however do you still think, after all this prep paid for by the taxpayer, that the taxpayer should also pay for their higher education? I ask because I'm not sure what your stance is on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Since unfair trade polices eliminated millions of manufacturing jobs for high school grads , what's the solution? More Pell and Tap grants for lower income families would be fair IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Unfortunately yes, children. 18 year olds aren't properly informed or educated to understand the fiscal consequences of taking on various student loans, because keeping them ignorant is profitable, and its directly tied to what you mention later in your post, that college has become a huge for-profit industry. So the question is, how do you make college more affordable? Implement regulations? Tax credits? (generally speaking, I don't think healthcare or education should be for-profit industries, but I know most here disagree with me on that... I'm open minded to solutions that make the cost of participation cheaper, though, since its more likely that both sides of the aisle would come together on that, vs 'socialism') bull ****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grinreaper Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Since unfair trade polices eliminated millions of manufacturing jobs for high school grads , what's the solution? More Pell and Tap grants for lower income families would be fair IMO The reason that college is so expensive is the easy availability of student loans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepthefaith Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 The reason that college is so expensive is the easy availability of student loans. That's part of it and there is a significant segment of parents who are willing to pay for their kids to go to the big fancy schools for the education, the "experience" and the bragging rights. The big schools also already admit and give preference and "scholarships" to those that can demonstrate need. The big schools are also competing with each other for the best in facilities, grounds, professors (cough cough) and athletics. The big schools can often boast better recruitment numbers which also drives demand. What's really missing in the Illinois state system are 4 year schools located near the population centers where students can attend and commute and do it for a lot less and also work part-time. The community college system should expand to 4 year programs IMO which would make a bachelors degree far more affordable and available in this state. We have Rasmussen College in the midwest which offers 4 year degrees (some classes online) for about $8K per year in tuition and in areas within an easy commute for many but I don't hear much about this school from people in the area. Since unfair trade polices eliminated millions of manufacturing jobs for high school grads , what's the solution? More Pell and Tap grants for lower income families would be fair IMO Personally I think every family and teenager that works should be able to deduct all education expenses and education savings from their federal and state taxes along with health care savings and costs. Better incentives will drive better behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 That's part of it and there is a significant segment of parents who are willing to pay for their kids to go to the big fancy schools for the education, the "experience" and the bragging rights. The big schools also already admit and give preference and "scholarships" to those that can demonstrate need. The big schools are also competing with each other for the best in facilities, grounds, professors (cough cough) and athletics. The big schools can often boast better recruitment numbers which also drives demand. What's really missing in the Illinois state system are 4 year schools located near the population centers where students can attend and commute and do it for a lot less and also work part-time. The community college system should expand to 4 year programs IMO which would make a bachelors degree far more affordable and available in this state. We have Rasmussen College in the midwest which offers 4 year degrees (some classes online) for about $8K per year in tuition and in areas within an easy commute for many but I don't hear much about this school from people in the area. Personally I think every family and teenager that works should be able to deduct all education expenses and education savings from their federal and state taxes along with health care savings and costs. Better incentives will drive better behavior. I'm not sure about the deduction of the expenses but they should be able to tax deduct their contributions to their college savings plan. Sure earnings are tax free on a 529 but giving the deduction up front is more of an incentive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
....lybob Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 I'd eliminate summer vacations from public schools (two week vacation every season) add an hour a day but eliminate homework, and make high-school 5years - this would add the equivalent of four years of education. create a free online university payoff existing student converting them to a 2% loan offer 2% student loans provide free tuition and text books for careers deemed in need, contingent on maintaining a B average - this would include trades schools Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 I'd eliminate summer vacations from public schools (two week vacation every season) add an hour a day but eliminate homework, and make high-school 5years - this would add the equivalent of four years of education. create a free online university payoff existing student converting them to a 2% loan offer 2% student loans provide free tuition and text books for careers deemed in need, contingent on maintaining a B average - this would include trades schools "...and I want a pony, and a rocket ship, and a lightsaber, and a puppy, and an invisibility cloak..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
....lybob Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 "...and I want a pony, and a rocket ship, and a lightsaber, and a puppy, and an invisibility cloak..." What you should want is titanium gold alloy ankles to replace those chalk ones but you've been very bad so you're getting a bag of wood pellets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 What you should want is titanium gold alloy ankles What do I need those for? My spleen is fine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 I'd eliminate summer vacations from public schools (two week vacation every season) add an hour a day but eliminate homework, and make high-school 5years - this would add the equivalent of four years of education. create a free online university payoff existing student converting them to a 2% loan offer 2% student loans provide free tuition and text books for careers deemed in need, contingent on maintaining a B average - this would include trades schools And what does all this 'free' stuff cost? How do you pay for it? How do you measure success? If you eliminate summer vacation, when are the gatormans supposed to catch up with summer school classes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbillievable Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Personally I think every family and teenager that works should be able to deduct all education expenses and education savings from their federal and state taxes along with health care savings and costs. Better incentives will drive better behavior. That program will be vilified by the liberals for not just lowering taxes, but doing so for mostly white middle-class families. Conservatives will just complain that there are already too many liberal arts majors flooding the fast food industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 You know the best, fastest, easiest way to begin to address the problems with education in this country? Eliminate tenure at all levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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