Would you, right now, trade EJ for Tannehill? Chapter 2

[nucci]

Don't get too excited. He calls everyone a troll. I'm not sure he understands what it means.

[metzelaars_lives]

Here they are (1st 14 games each). But don't tell anyone - it might dispel a lot of myths out there....like a QB can't improve

 

Att Comp Comp% Yds TDs TD% INTs INT% QB rating

Tannehill 396 227 57.3 2709 8 2.02 12 3.03 72.4

Manuel 437 256 58.6 2816 16 3.66 12 2.74 78.5

Those are actually Tannehill's numbers through his first 13 games but point taken (he had 10 TD's through his first 14). Did Ryan Tannehill show up and perform so incredibly poorly in his second offseason and preseason that his team scrambled to go find a washed up veteran to back him up/start? I think one major point here that the "14 games" crowd continues to overlook is that only reason he has only played 14 games is because he sucked so bad last year that the coaching staff (yes the coaching staff that is now in Jacksonville, we get it) wouldn't let him sniff the field even after it became apparent that said washed up veteran sucked too. By contrast, Tannehill took every snap and threw for 24 TD's and almost 4,000 yards in his second year. So if EJ Manuel sucks once again this year and gets yanked after 4 games again in favor of Matt Cassel, do you guys get to tell everyone that EJ Manuel has only played 18 games and then compare his stats to Tannehill through 18 games? And meanwhile, Tannehill is throwing for over 4,000 yards again in his 4th complete season?

Edited March 15, 2015 by metzelaars_lives

[billsfan1959]

 

I wouldn't consider it to be a fair comparison by taking EJ's numbers after 2 full seasons and compare them to Tannehill's after 14 games in his rookie year. Still seems like people are talking like EJ is a rookie still with the whole "he's only played 14 games" stuff. I find it misleading.

 

Why would you try and compare the stats of someone who had an entire off-season to work on his game and improve to someone who was still in their rookie season?

How about their 1st 10 games of their rookie years. Almost identical...

Att Comp Comp% Yds TDs TD% INTs INT% QB rating

Tannehill 280 165 58.9 1979 5 1.79 9 3.21 76

Manuel 279 162 58.6 1822 9 3.23 9 3,23 75

The only other fair comparisons would be their first four games of their second years. You will find the same. The point is that Tannehill has had the opportunity to improve and he has. Manuel has not had the opportunity. Nobody can say if he would improve with the opportunity - but they can't say he would not either.

[billsfan1959]

Those are actually Tannehill's numbers through his first 13 games but point taken (he had 10 TD's through his first 14). Did Ryan Tannehill show up and perform so incredibly poorly in his second offseason and preseason that his team scrambled to go find a washed up veteran to back him up/start? I think one major point here that the "14 games" crowd continues to overlook is that only reason he has only played 14 games is because he sucked so bad last year that the coaching staff (yes the coaching staff that is now in Jacksonville, we get it) wouldn't let him sniff the field even after it became apparent that said washed up veteran sucked too. By contrast, Tannehill took every snap and threw for 24 TD's and almost 4,000 yards in his second year. So if EJ Manuel sucks once again this year and gets yanked after 4 games again in favor of Matt Cassel, do you guys get to tell everyone that EJ Manuel has only played 18 games and then compare his stats to Tannehill through 18 games? And meanwhile, Tannehill is throwing for over 4,000 yards again in his 4th complete season?

The only point that the "14 games crowd" is trying to make is that we do not know, at this point, whether or not Manuel can be a quality NFL QB. "We" do not believe he has had enough of an opportunity. That is it. He may turn out to be good or he may not. Let's just see. You are welcome to whatever opinion you want and you can use whatever factors you choose to base that opinion on. Only time will tell.

[GunnerBill]

How would that be any fairer though Metzelaars? Because you will be talking a guy who has had game time to learn and develop vs a guy that was yanked. I think that is the point here. Whatever you think about EJ he was yanked. It is worth saying that after 3 games of his THIRD season Tannehill was under major pressure had started out the season badly and there were Dolphins fans crying out for Matt Moore. Philbin stuck with Tannehill who got a boost to his confidence by beating the Raiders and his season took off from there.

 

I share your doubts that EJ is the long term answer.... but it is undeniable that our coaching staff bailed on him where in an equivalent situation Miami's staff stood by their guy. That doesn't necessarily mean both couldn't have been the right decision - you sometimes have to look beyond the stats somewhat.... but the EJ supporters are making interesting comparisons in numbers that at least questions Marrone's decision to go to Orton.

[metzelaars_lives]

The only point that the "14 games crowd" is trying to make is that we do not know, at this point, whether or not Manuel can be a quality NFL QB. "We" do not believe he has had enough of an opportunity. That is it. He may turn out to be good or he may not. Let's just see. You are welcome to whatever opinion you want and you can use whatever factors you choose to base that opinion on. Only time will tell.

I have stated numerous times that the verdict is not in yet, I would agree with that. But I think I have seen enough to formulate the opinion that I don't think it's happening for EJ. Most every Bills fan I know feels that way. If he came out this year, won the job, looked great, won games, put up numbers and appeared to be the QB we've been looking for- stranger things have happened. However it's OK for some people to say that the odds of that happening appear unlikely. Is that fair?

How would that be any fairer though Metzelaars? Because you will be talking a guy who has had game time to learn and develop vs a guy that was yanked. I think that is the point here. Whatever you think about EJ he was yanked. It is worth saying that after 3 games of his THIRD season Tannehill was under major pressure had started out the season badly and there were Dolphins fans crying out for Matt Moore. Philbin stuck with Tannehill who got a boost to his confidence by beating the Raiders and his season took off from there.

 

I share your doubts that EJ is the long term answer.... but it is undeniable that our coaching staff bailed on him where in an equivalent situation Miami's staff stood by their guy. That doesn't necessarily mean both couldn't have been the right decision - you sometimes have to look beyond the stats somewhat.... but the EJ supporters are making interesting comparisons in numbers that at least questions Marrone's decision to go to Orton.

I agree with just about everything you say but the one thing I would debate is that there's no way that Tannehill (and I did not watch him play this year when that was going on) looked as bad as Manuel did against San Diego and Houston. No way. Virtually everyone on here agreed moving on from EJ was the right thing to do after that Houston game. And certainly everyone was on board after Orton looked solid against Detroit the following week. And again, it's so important to consider and yet never considered by the "14 ganmes" crowd, that Manuel was absolutely horrid all throughout camp and the preseason. Horrid. Was Tannehill? I don't remember reading that.

Edited March 15, 2015 by metzelaars_lives

[Gugny]

No.

[GunnerBill]

I have stated numerous times that the verdict is not in yet, I would agree with that. But I think I have seen enough to formulate the opinion that I don't think it's happening for EJ. Most every Bills fan I know feels that way. If he came out this year, won the job, looked great, won games, put up numbers and appeared to be the QB we've been looking for- stranger things have happened. However it's OK for some people to say that the odds of that happening appear unlikely. Is that fair?

I agree with just about everything you say but the one thing I would debate is that there's no way that Tannehill (and I did not watch him play this year when that was going on) looked as bad as Manuel did against San Diego and Houston. No way. And again, it's so important to consider and yet never considered by the "14 ganmes" crowd, that Manuel was absolutely horrid all throughout camp and the preseason. Horrid. Was Tannehill? I don't remember reading that.

 

I will direct you to a game I watched at the start of Tannehill's second year - on the road at New Orleans - where he looked every bit as disastrous as EJ against San Diego and Houston. He was completing nothing over 5 yards, checkdown central and turned it over 4 times I think. That is one that stands out in my mind because it was the "late" live game over here in the UK. I know it is hard to compare the two because you are not emotionally involved in every incompletion when it is the Dolphins QB throwing them in the same way you are when it is EJ or Orton or Fitz or whoever.

 

Again, I am not seeking to argue EJ > Tannehill just that your "he only got 14 games because he stunk" is not an answer.... he only got 14 games because the staff bailed on him. You could argue rightly.... but plenty of other young Quarterbacks have stunk just as bad and been retained.

 

EDIT: It might even have been the Sunday Night Football game.

Edited March 15, 2015 by GunnerBill

[gumby]

Not sure if the poll is really accurate.

 

You would have to add to Manuel if you want to get Tannehill.

[1billsfan]

I have stated numerous times that the verdict is not in yet, I would agree with that. But I think I have seen enough to formulate the opinion that I don't think it's happening for EJ. Most every Bills fan I know feels that way. If he came out this year, won the job, looked great, won games, put up numbers and appeared to be the QB we've been looking for- stranger things have happened. However it's OK for some people to say that the odds of that happening appear unlikely. Is that fair?

I agree with just about everything you say but the one thing I would debate is that there's no way that Tannehill (and I did not watch him play this year when that was going on) looked as bad as Manuel did against San Diego and Houston. No way. Virtually everyone on here agreed moving on from EJ was the right thing to do after that Houston game. And certainly everyone was on board after Orton looked solid against Detroit the following week. And again, it's so important to consider and yet never considered by the "14 ganmes" crowd, that Manuel was absolutely horrid all throughout camp and the preseason. Horrid. Was Tannehill? I don't remember reading that.

 

Who cares about practice, how was he against the Bears in Chicago? How was he against the Dolphins the following week? He was 2-0 to start the season and looked steady. Then he had two horrific games. That's what happens with young, raw QBs who are still learning the game. Was it in the teams best interest to let Orton play? Sure it was, because the team felt they had a real opportunity to win this season. But that should not be seen as a negative on Manuel like you seem to love to always harp on. It was the situation that the team had a monster defense and it was not fair to put EJ's development ahead of that team.

 

I happen to think that the main thing holding back Manuel was his complete idiot head coach. Both in practice and on game days. You simply don't ever instruct a young 1st round NFL QB to never turn the ball over. Also, you don't tell QBs with the gift of making plays on the run to stay in the pocket because you might get hurt. You could almost see Manuel overthinking himself on every passing play. Marrone was an idiot. Having said all that, if Manuel can't make it happen with Roman then you and the haters were right. Roman has had success with both Smith and Kaepernick. With Roman coaching him, I think there's a decent chance that Manuel will have a solid season as the Bills starting QB this year (20-24 passing TDs/2-4 rushing TDs). Of course they'd get into the playoffs with that level of QB play and that's where EJ would get to show if he truly does have that franchise QB "it" factor. See if that 4-0 in bowl games transfers to similar NFL playoff success.

[FireChan]

 

Who cares about practice, how was he against the Bears in Chicago? How was he against the Dolphins the following week? He was 2-0 to start the season and looked steady. Then he had two horrific games. That's what happens with young, raw QBs who are still learning the game. Was it in the teams best interest to let Orton play? Sure it was, because the team felt they had a real opportunity to win this season. But that should not be seen as a negative on Manuel like you seem to love to always harp on. It was the situation that the team had a monster defense and it was not fair to put EJ's development ahead of that team.

 

I happen to think that the main thing holding back Manuel was his complete idiot head coach. Both in practice and on game days. You simply don't ever instruct a young 1st round NFL QB to never turn the ball over. Also, you don't tell QBs with the gift of making plays on the run to stay in the pocket because you might get hurt. You could almost see Manuel overthinking himself on every passing play. Marrone was an idiot. Having said all that, if Manuel can't make it happen with Roman then you and the haters were right. Roman has had success with both Smith and Kaepernick. With Roman coaching him, I think there's a decent chance that Manuel will have a solid season as the Bills starting QB this year (20-24 passing TDs/2-4 rushing TDs). Of course they'd get into the playoffs with that level of QB play and that's where EJ would get to show if he truly does have that franchise QB "it" factor. See if that 4-0 in bowl games transfers to similar NFL playoff success.

He was mediocre against the Bears.

 

I think ya'll scapegoat Marrone too much. Where's the rule to not tell young QB's to not turn to ball over? Are they supposed to tell him turnovers are great?

 

Chuck Pagano isn't a great coach, Luck did fine. Norv Turner is brutal, I don't see anyone blaming him for Teddy's mistakes. Tony Sparano, a horrific coach, doesn't get blamed when Carr makes a mistake. Marty for Geno? Where's the defense that he has an idiot coach? I've never heard it.

 

Also, all the WR's mutinied on EJ. That's who cares how he looks in practice. I mean, wasn't Marrone editing the tapes because EJ was getting picked off all the time in practice? Is that Marrone's fault or EJ's fault? Who sees that? His teammates that would rather have Orton playing QB?

 

Are you blaming Marrone for keeping EJ healthy? You know why he only has 14 games right? It's because he got hurt 3 separate times. Now, Marrone says, "don't take chances with your body," and he's a bad coach because of that? EJ has never been a big runner. Not in college, not in the NFL. His injuries are a key reason why he has so few games to evaluate his play. And you want his coach to let him get hurt more. Genius.

Edited March 15, 2015 by FireChan

[1billsfan]

He was mediocre against the Bears.

 

I think ya'll scapegoat Marrone too much. Where's the rule to not tell young QB's to not turn to ball over? Are they supposed to tell him turnovers are great?

 

Chuck Pagano isn't a great coach, Luck did fine. Norv Turner is brutal, I don't see anyone blaming him for Teddy's mistakes. Tony Sparano, a horrific coach, doesn't get blamed when Carr makes a mistake. Marty for Geno? Where's the defense that he has an idiot coach? I've never heard it.

 

Also, all the WR's mutinied on EJ. That's who cares how he looks in practice. I mean, wasn't Marrone editing the tapes because EJ was getting picked off all the time in practice? Is that Marrone's fault or EJ's fault? Who sees that? His teammates that would rather have Orton playing QB?

 

Are you blaming Marrone for keeping EJ healthy? You know why he only has 14 games right? It's because he got hurt 3 separate times. Now, Marrone says, "don't take chances with your body," and he's a bad coach because of that? EJ has never been a big runner. Not in college, not in the NFL. His injuries are a key reason why he has so few games to evaluate his play. And you want his coach to let him get hurt more. Genius.

 

Andrew Luck? Really? I can’t have a serious debate with you if you are going to compare Andrew Luck’s development with EJ Manuel.

[FireChan]

Andrew Luck? Really? I cant have a serious debate with you if you are going to compare Andrew Lucks development with EJ Manuel.

Why don't you respond to any other point I made? And the gist of it was that while coaching can help or hurt, it's not the end all be all. Why don't you blame Sparano for Carr's turnovers or incompletions? Is Carr close to EJ?

[1billsfan]

Why don't you respond to any other point I made? And the gist of it was that while coaching can help or hurt, it's not the end all be all. Why don't you blame Sparano for Carr's turnovers or incompletions? Is Carr close to EJ?

 

I said my peace on it about as plainly as I possible could. Beyond what I said, there is no changing my mind until I'm proven wrong on the matter.

[FireChan]

 

I said my peace on it about as plainly as I possible could. Beyond what I said, there is no changing my mind until I'm proven wrong on the matter.

Sadly, I think the WR's are set in how they feel about EJ.

 

Marrone will be mostly exonerated soon enough, I think.

Edited March 15, 2015 by FireChan

[3rdand12]

I'd trade EJ for a roll of toilet paper. Much more useful

You are setting a bad example for the other moderators with comments like these.

i have warned you.

[Jmsbills]

I live in South Florida and most Dolphin fans would give you Tannehil in a minute. They hate him here and think he stinks.

[Bangarang]

 

How about their 1st 10 games of their rookie years. Almost identical...

Att Comp Comp% Yds TDs TD% INTs INT% QB rating

Tannehill 280 165 58.9 1979 5 1.79 9 3.21 76

Manuel 279 162 58.6 1822 9 3.23 9 3,23 75

The only other fair comparisons would be their first four games of their second years. You will find the same. The point is that Tannehill has had the opportunity to improve and he has. Manuel has not had the opportunity. Nobody can say if he would improve with the opportunity - but they can't say he would not either.

 

Their rookie year numbers are quite similar really. And you're correct, nobody can know if EJ would have improved or not had he not been benched. All we can really do is to wait and see how he looks come training camp. If he wins the starting job then hopefully it's because he's improved his game. If he loses the competition then chances are he won't ever amount to anything in Buffalo.

[3rdand12]

No.

you seem on the fence over the questions.

would you like some more time?

Or perhaps another option. such as D

 

D) all the above

 

or number 5

 

5 ) none of the above.

 

oopsey! time is up!

 

thanks for playing and here is your TBD board game to share with friends and family alike. well its in the mail actually. well actually it s not but thanks for playing.

 

DC TOM C'MON DOWN !

the answer is EJ

Because he is a Bill and we should root for the laundry

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

I don't care about EJ versus Tannehill.

 

I care about EJ versus Cassel versus Taylor.

 

I'm hoping EJ becomes better than Cassel ever was.

Or I'm hoping Cassel has his best year yet.

 

Or I'm hoping Taylor was a diamond buried in a depth chart.

You just summarized the off season in one post...

 

Just something fricken work already!