Peter Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I know poison pills are no longer allowed but I wonder if a team is able to state in the contract that, say, the first two years cannot be renegotiated in any way by either side. I was thinking along similar lines. Is there anything that prevents the Dolphins and Clay from restructuring after they match. Example, let's say we load up the contract in the first two years. The Dolphins then match. I presume that there is nothing that prevents the Dolphins and Clay from restructuring his contract next year to make it more cap friendly when Suh's big cap hit occurs. At that point, what does Clay care - he has his big contract. I could be wrong, but it seems like it is going to be a close call. The Dolphins made it easier on themselves to match. It will be painful, but they could do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 This sucks, I was really getting into the idea of acquiring Clay... my ignorant view of things looks like we got played hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I was thinking along similar lines. Is there anything that prevents the Dolphins and Clay from restructuring after they match. Example, let's say we load up the contract in the first two years. The Dolphins then match. I presume that there is nothing that prevents the Dolphins and Clay from restructuring his contract next year to make it more cap friendly when Suh's big cap hit occurs. At that point, what does Clay care - he has his big contract. I could be wrong, but it seems like it is going to be a close call. The Dolphins made it easier on themselves to match. It will be painful, but they could do it. Really after year 1 it takes clay wanting to be here instead of Miami. He'd have to say no to options they could offer him that would be beneficial (like a restructure). He could, but it seems he isn't unhappy there.... This sucks, I was really getting into the idea of acquiring Clay... my ignorant view of things looks like we got played hard. We might not get him but I'm not sure how we got played (mentioned twice now) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I know poison pills are no longer allowed but I wonder if a team is able to state in the contract that, say, the first two years cannot be renegotiated in any way by either side. I don't think that would be allowed. Miami is setting up Suh's contract to roll the big salary in '16 into a bonus to free up cap space next year. I think Bills can still do it by making the first two years of the guaranteed the salary portion. Miami can probably make a $9 mil cap hit in '15 work, but doubtful anything more than $10 mil. But whatever they do, t will be painful to have that much tied up in a DT and a TE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) Really after year 1 it takes clay wanting to be here instead of Miami. He'd have to say no to options they could offer him that would be beneficial (like a restructure). He could, but it seems he isn't unhappy there.... We might not get him but I'm not sure how we got played (mentioned twice now) Seems like we made a somewhat conservative offer based on the original Suh numbers? Then the Dolphins came away with a crazy low cap hit this year on Suh. Edit: We also released our only decent TE in the process, heh. Edited March 12, 2015 by Dorkington Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 You are assuming he'd say yes to a restructure next year, which is not an automatic. Restructure keeps you around but if he has a good year he'd force their hand and take free agency. This is a tricky situation, bills need to make their offer now, longer they wait the more other free agents get chomped up and they can't afford that if they don't get him. I don't mean this insulting but I'm not sure you know what your saying. The restructure would turn his salary into signing bonus. He'd get the same money (more? Not subject to road game income tax?) and get it in March instead of weekly checks in the fall. Not sure how you think he'd get to free agency next year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockinon Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Wonder who Miami will cut to save cap space? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Seems like we made a somewhat conservative offer based on the original Suh numbers? Then the Dolphins came away with a crazy low cap hit this year on Suh. It always has to be low year 1- they didn't have cap space this year to make it higher... What else did you expect it to be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted March 12, 2015 Author Share Posted March 12, 2015 Seems like we made a somewhat conservative offer based on the original Suh numbers? Then the Dolphins came away with a crazy low cap hit this year on Suh. Edit: We also released our only decent TE in the process, heh. i don't think the Bills have an offer to him yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemac2001 Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Chandler didn't fit the new offense so it didn't surprise me Gragg and gray are more of his style Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What a Tuel Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 All they'd have to do is turn any year two bonus/salary into signing bonus next year and its a breeze. You kill them this year, or you kill them with total dollars/guarantees. Pushing money out of year two couldn't be simpler for them (and preferred, it seems) Good point. Still wouldn't it be a risk that Clay would say no? Then they'd have to cut him or be stuck with the cap hit. signing bonus would probably make him say yes though. You are right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I know poison pills are no longer allowed but I wonder if a team is able to state in the contract that, say, the first two years cannot be renegotiated in any way by either side.That's kind of what I am wondering. I kept thinking of how nice the poison pill would be at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 i don't think the Bills have an offer to him yet Ahhhh, well then nevermind It always has to be low year 1- they didn't have cap space this year to make it higher... What else did you expect it to be? I was under the impression the first year was going to be higher, due to Suh wanting a high amount of guaranteed or something. Like I said, ignorant opinion. ... So do we still have a good shot at Clay or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I don't mean this insulting but I'm not sure you know what your saying. The restructure would turn his salary into signing bonus. He'd get the same money (more? Not subject to road game income tax?) and get it in March instead of weekly checks in the fall. Not sure how you think he'd get to free agency next year? He says no, forces release, gets a larger signing bonus/1st year salary then the year 2 salary. it all comes down to leverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offsides#76FredSmerlas Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Everyone is worried about Miami but I thought I heard that Clay was Cleveland's #1 guy they wanted in free agency. Do we need to worry about them just as much if not more than Miami? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Everyone is worried about Miami but I thought I heard that Clay was Cleveland's #1 guy they wanted in free agency. Do we need to worry about them just as much if not more than Miami?No, because if he signs the Bills offer sheet they are out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Good point. Still wouldn't it be a risk that Clay would say no? Then they'd have to cut him or be stuck with the cap hit. signing bonus would probably make him say yes though. You are right. Unless he wants out, the offer is extremely beneficial to him. I don't think the Miami situation is sour so I doubt he'd make it hard at his own expense, unless we aren't in the loop on something Really it still shouldn't be terribly concerning as nothing actually changed with this signing- suh had to be a low cap hit this year. We've known that all along Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offsides#76FredSmerlas Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 ok, thanks for clearing that up for me Kirby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 ok, thanks for clearing that up for me Kirby.No problem. If he leaves without signing that though we are in some trouble when it comes to Clay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 He says no, forces release, gets a larger signing bonus/1st year salary then the year 2 salary. it all comes down to leverage. Year two will likely be mostly guaranteed no matter what. IF he HATES Miami we have some more tricks available but if he just wants to take care of himself your theory makes little sense honestly just from a nuts and bolts perspective Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uffalo Ills Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Our fallback plan could definitely be Jordan Cameron. He's my first choice anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estro Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the Dolphins really want to retain Clay can't they agree to match the Bills contract no matter what the structure.....and then immediately restructure high base salaries into bonuses and amortize those bonuses over the life of the deal to soften that cap hits in the early years. Or are the Dolphins not allowed to restructure the deal immediately after matching the Bills offer? I'm not sure what the rules are with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LedyardCTbillsfan Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Our fallback plan could definitely be Jordan Cameron. He's my first choice anyway. I think he is too, we can get him for cheaper than Clay more than likely IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBills Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the Dolphins really want to retain Clay can't they agree to match the Bills contract no matter what the structure.....and then immediately restructure high base salaries into bonuses and amortize those bonuses over the life of the deal to soften that cap hits in the early years. Or are the Dolphins not allowed to restructure the deal immediately after matching the Bills offer? I'm not sure what the rules are with that. They can't alter the contract til next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the Dolphins really want to retain Clay can't they agree to match the Bills contract no matter what the structure.....and then immediately restructure high base salaries into bonuses and amortize those bonuses over the life of the deal to soften that cap hits in the early years. Or are the Dolphins not allowed to restructure the deal immediately after matching the Bills offer? I'm not sure what the rules are with that. Can't restructure a deal signed the same year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Year two will likely be mostly guaranteed no matter what. IF he HATES Miami we have some more tricks available but if he just wants to take care of himself your theory makes little sense honestly just from a nuts and bolts perspective If it's guaranteed all the more reason he'd take the money AND free agency! Why do you think Wallace is giving them a hard time? Cause he has the leverage and wants free agency. Phins want him to trade salary for bonus so they can defer the dead cap of cutting him to the future. You are being naive assuming every player will accept a straight restructure. They know it just makes the problem bigger the following year. If clay ends up with a big 2nd year cap number via a buffalo bills offer it matters to the phins cause there is no certainty he would restructure - you can't discount that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Can they include a clause that provides that the contract cannot be modified or restructured by either party until after year 2? Then they front load the first two years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 If it's guaranteed all the more reason he'd take the money AND free agency! Why do you think Wallace is giving them a hard time? Cause he has the leverage and wants free agency. Phins want him to trade salary for bonus so they can defer the dead cap of cutting him to the future. You are being naive assuming every player will accept a straight restructure. They know it just makes the problem bigger the following year. If clay ends up with a big 2nd year cap number via a buffalo bills offer it matters to the phins cause there is no certainty he would restructure - you can't discount that. What problem does it make bigger the next year? That it's again hard to cut him? I think there are very few players out there actively trying to get cut as often as possible to accumulate signing bonuses. Maybe situationally, but a year into a mega deal? No way. He takes the cash and smiles unless he hates Miami. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estro Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 They can't alter the contract til next year. Okay thanks for the clarification, that's what I was hoping. So if the Bills really want Clay they need to make his base this year $14M. His contract breakdown would look something like this: 4 years - $28M, $14M guaranteed '15: $14M base salary ($14M cap hit) '16: $1M base salary & $3M roster bonus, amortized over 3 yrs. ($2M cap hit) '17: $5M base salaey ($6M cap hit) '18: $5M base salary ($6M cap hit) With this structure the Dolphins would need to have enough cap space to squeeze Clay in at his full $14M cap hit, plus $5M for their rookie draft pool, plus any emergency funds you keep heading into a season which is usually at least a few $M. Essentially the Dolphins would need to have in excess of $20M in cap space to match a deal like this. It leaves the Bills vulnerable if Clay were to get hurt or retire from football after the '15 season, but that's not very likely. The Bills are being super proactive: cutting Chandler and restructuring Kyle Williams deal, so it's clear that the '15 cap hit on Clay's offer sheet is going to be heavy. If they need extra breathing room they can always convert some of Mario's base salary. The downside to all of these cuts and restructures is obviously the cap hits in the future only get heavier, which eventually becomes a problem down the line. I will add the 1 wildcard no one has discussed, which is Dannell Ellerbe, LB, Dolphins. It's only a matter of time before he is cut and when he is the Phins pick up an additional $5.65M. If they are determined to keep Clay, they could cut Ellerbe and restructure a couple of contracts and make it work. They would be in absolute dire straits in the future if they decided to do this....but it is the Dolphins, and Stephen Ross, so you never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offsides#76FredSmerlas Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I hope that this all works out or the money might have been better spent on some offensive linemen that got snagged up already. Although it seems like most of them re-signed with their original teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estro Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Can they include a clause that provides that the contract cannot be modified or restructured by either party until after year 2? Then they front load the first two years. That's a good point I hadn't thought of. It would be a smart tactic if allowed. My guess is that type of language wouldn't be allowed in a contract, but I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted March 12, 2015 Author Share Posted March 12, 2015 I hope that this all works out or the money might have been better spent on some offensive linemen that got snagged up already. Although it seems like most of them re-signed with their original teams.it seemed like they are prepared to pay an OL as well. Clay has always been in the plan. As has OL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offsides#76FredSmerlas Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Adam Caplan ✔ @caplannfl #Browns have wanted Clay from day one. Was considered to be their top target for free agency. Transition tag complicated the situation. I guess Clay is not even giving Cleveland an opportunity it sounds like. "GOOD" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffwagonscircled Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Our fallback plan could definitely be Jordan Cameron. He's my first choice anyway. Screw Cameron, if this falls through with Clay then go after Vernon Davis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted March 12, 2015 Author Share Posted March 12, 2015 Screw Cameron, if this falls through with Clay then go after Vernon DavisWould need to trade for him though (unless cut) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Okay thanks for the clarification, that's what I was hoping. So if the Bills really want Clay they need to make his base this year $14M. His contract breakdown would look something like this: 4 years - $28M, $14M guaranteed '15: $14M base salary ($14M cap hit) '16: $1M base salary & $3M roster bonus, amortized over 3 yrs. ($2M cap hit) '17: $5M base salaey ($6M cap hit) '18: $5M base salary ($6M cap hit) With this structure the Dolphins would need to have enough cap space to squeeze Clay in at his full $14M cap hit, plus $5M for their rookie draft pool, plus any emergency funds you keep heading into a season which is usually at least a few $M. Essentially the Dolphins would need to have in excess of $20M in cap space to match a deal like this. It leaves the Bills vulnerable if Clay were to get hurt or retire from football after the '15 season, but that's not very likely. The Bills are being super proactive: cutting Chandler and restructuring Kyle Williams deal, so it's clear that the '15 cap hit on Clay's offer sheet is going to be heavy. If they need extra breathing room they can always convert some of Mario's base salary. The downside to all of these cuts and restructures is obviously the cap hits in the future only get heavier, which eventually becomes a problem down the line. I will add the 1 wildcard no one has discussed, which is Dannell Ellerbe, LB, Dolphins. It's only a matter of time before he is cut and when he is the Phins pick up an additional $5.65M. If they are determined to keep Clay, they could cut Ellerbe and restructure a couple of contracts and make it work. They would be in absolute dire straits in the future if they decided to do this....but it is the Dolphins, and Stephen Ross, so you never know. A little pricey up front, up if Roman really, really, REALLY thinks that he is the guy, I would be onboard. Miami may be ducking the cap reaper this year, but oh dear crap is it going to bite them in the ass in '16 and '17, especially if they decide to go all in with a meh QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Hurt Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Somehow Whaley still seems to be confident that the Dolphins won't match the offer. I wonder what he is offering. Can we offer like a 4 year deals for say 17M. Year 1 = 14M. Year 2 to 4 = 1M each? How much are we supposed to pay a TE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estro Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) Johm Murphy was saying on his radio show last night that Charles Clay will be paid like a top tight end. When he says things like that I listen......because he's not just saying them out of the blue. I originally thought $7 M per year seemed a bit too rich for Clay but now I'm thinking he might come in around $8M per if Murphy is onto something. Jimmy graham makes $10M per Gronkowski makes $9M per Julius Thomas makes $9.2M per Jason Witten makes $7.4M per Vernon Davis makes $7.35M per Kyle Rudolph makes $7.3M per Antonio Gates makes $7.2M per Jared Cook makes $7M per And many of these contracts were signed 2 years ago when the salary cap was 10-15% lower. So if you tack on 10% to some of those middle contracts listed above your right in the $8M per year range. Edited March 12, 2015 by Estro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted March 12, 2015 Author Share Posted March 12, 2015 @PhinManiacs: According to @ArmandoSalguero, it is expected that the Buffalo Bills will offer Charles Clay an official contract today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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