Mr. WEO Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Harbaugh got his pants pulled down and he cried about it. He could have called a TO.. In the second half, he totally mismanaged his TO's and thus had to save his last one for a hail Mary play with 4 seconds left. He was out-coached. Nothing at all illegal about what NE did. I bet BB had that move in mind for 30 years and he was waiting and waiting for years for just the right moment to spring it. Regardless, I thought the Ravens offensive plans were brilliant... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/8_Rule5_Players_Subs_Equip_GeneralRules.pdf See especially: Section 3, Article 1. Section 2, Article 10 and 11. There was a problem if the referee was not performing Sec. 3, Art. 1 and giving the defense the information and allowing the ball to be snapped. What the Patriots did was legal, but the officials did not officiate the game properly, IMO, giving them a clear competitive advantage. If the Patriots try this again, I hope the officials are instructed properly. Defensively, I think you line up in press and overwhelm the 4 blockers. They are basically playing 10 on 11 and relying on deception (and the officials to help with it) to get uncovered receivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Article and section of the rulebook is the greatest team ever... Cheap, obnoxious, slimy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/8_Rule5_Players_Subs_Equip_GeneralRules.pdf See especially: Section 3, Article 1. Section 2, Article 10 and 11. There was a problem if the referee was not performing Sec. 3, Art. 1 and giving the defense the information and allowing the ball to be snapped. What the Patriots did was legal, but the officials did not officiate the game properly, IMO, giving them a clear competitive advantage. If the Patriots try this again, I hope the officials are instructed properly. Defensively, I think you line up in press and overwhelm the 4 blockers. They are basically playing 10 on 11 and relying on deception (and the officials to help with it) to get uncovered receivers. Thanks for the link. As I suspected, this tactic at best occupies a gray area that most honest people would consider cheating. When such a substitution is made, the referee is required to prevent the offense from snapping the ball until the defense has a chance to adjust. This rule is part of the NFL's attempt to legislate substitutional trickery--as opposed to fake FGs, onside kicks, etc.--out of the game. The Patriots' scheme is designed to do one thing--confuse the defense with an unorthodox substitution then snap the ball quickly before they can adjust. If the referee enforces the rule properly, the Patriots would gain no advantage. By snapping the ball before the defense has had a reasonable chance to adjust, the Patriots are hoping to take advantage of the referee's failure to enforce the rule. How many honest people who would not call that cheating? They are trying to gain a competitive advantage from exactly what the rule is designed to prevent. The only way this is not cheating is if you believe "cheating" occurs only when you get caught. Edited January 11, 2015 by mannc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Sorry if already mentioned...but, don't refs announce when a player makes himself eligible? Seems to me that they do. The play I saw they didn't do that. The announcement would give the defense time to react (or call a TO if they were unsure). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Sorry if already mentioned...but, don't refs announce when a player makes himself eligible? Seems to me that they do. The play I saw they didn't do that. The announcement would give the defense time to react (or call a TO if they were unsure). He was being made "ineligible", no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jets Hater Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 As mentioned before, if the Bills had done it, we'd be claiming it was a smart move. I hate the Pats as much as anyone here, but BB is the best in the business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 its not cheating, its smart. as much as I hate to say it but brady is right they did nothing wrong. they exploited a loophole In the rules It was brilliant...don't expect it to stay in the rulebook very long, but I am shocked nobody has ever used this before...half the time the defenders are going to be covering a player that isn't even able to catch a pass because he isn't eligible, even though he might be a RB, WR or TE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 He was being made "ineligible", no? Only because he reported such to the ref. When a player (o-lineman) declares himself eligible don't they still announce that to all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/8_Rule5_Players_Subs_Equip_GeneralRules.pdf See especially: Section 3, Article 1. Section 2, Article 10 and 11. There was a problem if the referee was not performing Sec. 3, Art. 1 and giving the defense the information and allowing the ball to be snapped. What the Patriots did was legal, but the officials did not officiate the game properly, IMO, giving them a clear competitive advantage. If the Patriots try this again, I hope the officials are instructed properly. Defensively, I think you line up in press and overwhelm the 4 blockers. They are basically playing 10 on 11 and relying on deception (and the officials to help with it) to get uncovered receivers. You're totally correct--in particular Art 3, section 1's last sentence about the ball not being snapped until the referee is back in position (after telling the D about the eligibility situation) clearly indicates that the refs didn't call this game properly. Who here is really surprised, however? Only because he reported such to the ref. When a player (o-lineman) declares himself eligible don't they still announce that to all? According to the rule quoted, they are supposed to. What a crock. Harbaugh really needs to speak up about this. I really want to see a coach cheated by these guys grow a pair and say so to the media. Edited January 11, 2015 by MattM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Only because he reported such to the ref. When a player (o-lineman) declares himself eligible don't they still announce that to all? True. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 True. Refs screwed up because Belichick knew more about the rules than they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Refs screwed up because Belichick knew more about the rules than they did. That's a kind/benign reading of the situation. Note that Harbaugh pointed this out to the refs several times to no avail. Still think the benign explanation is correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 That's a kind/benign reading of the situation. Note that Harbaugh pointed this out to the refs several times to no avail. Still think the benign explanation is correct? After the fact. Should have called a time out if he actually recognized what was happening instead of crying about it to the refs afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) Only because he reported such to the ref. When a player (o-lineman) declares himself eligible don't they still announce that to all? They have to communicate it to the defensive captain. How that's officially communicated, I'm not sure. I'd assume some signal. Edited January 12, 2015 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 After the fact. Should have called a time out if he actually recognized what was happening instead of crying about it to the refs afterwards. According to Harbaugh, they did it multiple times, which is why he was seen repeatedly yelling at them from the sidelines on TV multiple times last night. He took the penalty on purpose he said because it was the only way they'd listen to him, and apparently still didn't. He needs to keep pressing this. Even under the benign explanation, the refs in that game should not be NFL refs next year--the rule book is amazingly clear on this point, so no excuse for them missing this, especially with a coach pointing it out to them. As for how they're supposed to announce it--just like they do for eligible players. In fact, they just audibly did it in the Colts-Broncos game about ten minutes ago. Seems pretty straightforward actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mabden Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Because the pats couldn't play straight up agginst a better team,they resort to cheap tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jletha Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Because the pats couldn't play straight up agginst a better team,they resort to cheap tactics. I would love a Bills coach to be this innovative. If it wins games and its legal, sign me up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 That's a kind/benign reading of the situation. Note that Harbaugh pointed this out to the refs several times to no avail. Still think the benign explanation is correct? Yeah, I do. I'm not one for grassy knolls. They have to communicate it to the defensive captain. How that's officially communicated, I'm not sure. I'd assume some signal. I just heard an announcement of an eligible receiver during the Denver game. Why would a ref announce that to everyone, not just the defensive captain (I assume you mean the defender who has the earpiece) for something that happens darn near every game and you and I understand when we see it (& don't need an announcement), but, not announce something that we've never seen before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) Yeah, I do. I'm not one for grassy knolls. I just heard an announcement of an eligible receiver during the Denver game. Why would a ref announce that to everyone, not just the defensive captain (I assume you mean the defender who has the earpiece) for something that happens darn near every game and you and I understand when we see it (& don't need an announcement), but, not announce something that we've never seen before? The refs have no obligation to announce anything to you or I. I was simply relaying the verbiage of the rule I read. The ref had to communicate it to 1 man as the minimum. In a loud stadium or if there's mic trouble, or in this case a hurry up- Id guess there's a signal or direct connect and not reliance on stadium pa and the defense having to determine between important announcements and normal jibber jabber Harbaugh also seemed upset about time to locate and adjust, not that they were never told. I'm not sure the refs are required to hold the play so the defense can adjust its matchups and playcalls any more than if a rb splits wide though. Edited January 12, 2015 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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