thewildrabbit Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 C'mon guys, exactly how many of you out there would actually trust Nathaniel Hackett to develop a QB properly for the NFL level? I thought so, and neither does Whaley. Bringing in someone to tutor EJ isn't a bad idea because he needs to be developed properly, and running up the middle 71% of the time nor 50 passes a game is the best way. If the player in question is not the #1 overall and has holes in his game then just look to how the Ravens slowly developed Joe Flacco behind a great running game, and that is the proper way IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsguy Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Goddammit Whaley. Don't let EJ friggin Manuel be your downfall. Goddammit Pegula. Don't let friggin Whaley be your downfall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) C'mon guys, exactly how many of you out there would actually trust Nathaniel Hackett to develop a QB properly for the NFL level? I thought so, and neither does Whaley. Bringing in someone to tutor EJ isn't a bad idea because he needs to be developed properly, and running up the middle 71% of the time nor 50 passes a game is the best way. If the player in question is not the #1 overall and has holes in his game then just look to how the Ravens slowly developed Joe Flacco behind a great running game, and that is the proper way IMO Exactly. Not only that but you want to know how a prospective coach would develop any young QB, and what's important to him about that development. That tells you a lot about how he treats and works with and develops talent, especially QB talent. The best way to get that information out is to say we have a great slab of clay, tell me what you are going to do to make a masterpiece out of it. Do you want a coach to spend a few months preparing for developing a QB you think sucks? Edited January 6, 2015 by Kelly the Dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickelCity Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 The accuracy. The accuracy scares me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zonabb Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 I'm posing this an honest question because no one here, as far as I can tell, has played QB in the NFL, been an NFL GM or coach, or has much more to go on other than stats and what they see on the field. So we're all in the same boat with that regard. I will preface this by saying there are some issues with EJ that stand out, mainly accuracy and decision-making, although I feel like has was showing more ability to work through reads by the time he was benched. But here's are a few things before the question... The NFL clearly is about having a QB. Teams clearly overdraft them given their limited supply and desperation. You'd pay $5 for a glass of water if you were dying of thirst rather than wait to see if you could get it for $1. That's basically how drafting QBs functions. I would say lots of GMs draft them in this manner, just look at the track record of first round busts. Others get lucky, like Seattle who signed a mediocre QB as a free agent who threw 6 TDs in his only start the prior season and still drafted Wilson in the third. That FA never saw the field not because the Seahawks were especially smart, but rather they used a later pick to get QB on the roster. So here's the question because everyone is clamoring that we wasted the 2015 first round pick for Watkins yet if we just agree that EJ is garbage, we've wasted the 2013 pick on 14 games. How much time is enough time for a QB? Is it always and should it always bee one and done? It's fundamentally about what used to be the way QBs were groomed and the way they are now. Some QBs are OK from the get go, some had to go through some major lumps. Troy Aikman was flat out garbage his first and second years. He was no superstar statistically and he won three Super Bowls with very good teams built the old fashioned way... run and stop the run and don't make mistakes. His first three years were: 11 games, 9 TDs, 18 INTs 15 games, 11 TDs, 18 INTs 12 games, 11 TDs, 10 INTs His fourth season, he was 16 games, 23 TDs, 14 INTs, and a Super Bowl win. Obviously the eras are different and his numbers seek pedestrian in the fourth year but contextually he was among the best.... 2nd in pass completed, 4th in yards, tired for 3rd in TDs (leader was Young with 25) 3rd in rating and did not finish in the top 10 in INTs. To contextualize it some more.... Kelly that year was 5th in completions, 3rd in yards (beat Aikman by 12 yards), was tied with Aikman for 3rd in TDs and was First in INTs with 19. If they dumped him after his first year or two, he;d be labeled a bust. In my mind, the Dolphins are doing it right with Tannehill. Look at his three year progression.... He's played every game and every single stats has improved.He's gone from 12 to 24 to 27 TDs and dropped from 13-17-12 INTs (slight blip there). His rating completion rate is 58%, 60%, 66% and his rating is 76, 81, 92. In this win now league, I think teams make the mistake of starting guys who are raw, typically on horrible teams behind horrible lines, and expecting miracles. I'm not saying EJ is the savior but I'm not one to throw the kid to the curb because when you look at his stat line, it's not that atrocious. When you consider the patience shown by Miami and the progress they've made, you have to wonder what EJ might have been like next season if he started all year and had a good coach. People are saying get Cutler in her, he threw of 28 TDs last year and can sling the ball around the field. Well basically, Tannehill had a better all around year than Cutler and maybe, just maybe, that's what we'd be staring at for next season if EJ had started all along, had this year Sammy, hopefully an improved OL, and a defense that's championship caliber. Instead, the lack of patience has gotten them where? And will the QB in 2015 be better than EJ with two years under his belt? To me, EJ shows more promise and skills than Rob Johnson (30 Bills starts), JP Losman (33 Bills starts), and Trent Edwards (34 Bills starts). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DE Bills Fan Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Good info --Whaley wants HC to develop EJ -- Shanahans would not be a GM/HC combo but rather HC/OC combo http://bills.buffalonews.com/2015/01/06/bills-interview-least-4-coach-candidates-end-week/ If that is true, then the Bills are done. Need to cut ties with Manuel and move on. He just does not have what it takes to be a QB in this league. Too slow in his decision making and totally inaccurate with many of his throws. If he is the starter next year, then the season is already lost. As Metallica syas "Sad but True". Get an experience QB, get some experienced OL and try and develop the young lineman that they already have. Also draft a back and hopefully, if we can get the Offense to even 'average', we should be able to make the playoffs. Give Schwartz another chance and keep some continuity which is needed right now. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 The accuracy. The accuracy scares me. Just scheme around it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanForever19 Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 EJ deserves to compete for the job in Training Camp. But if he plans on repeating last season by anointing Manuel starter and not bring in competition - then he needs to go too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In space no one can hear Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 They also made an understandable but ultimately dumb decision in the off season to tell him not to run. That hurt him in a lot of ways. Yes, he got injured three different times in his rookie season, but he was never injury prone before, and you could see what happened each time. If he was going to be a good QB in this league he had to be able to run, even though he was never a "running QB" per se even in college. By drilling it into him not to run, and all but eliminating the zone read kind of plays where he is a threat to run, and totally limiting his rollouts where he can easier avoid the rush, it hurt his progress. In retrospect it was a mistake, like a lot of others. Again, at first blush it is understandable because of the injuries. But this isn't RGIII we're talking about. He's not slender or frail. And if he turned out to be, he's going to be out of the league in a year anyway. They should have just coached him to be a little smarter, but still be yourself. EJ Manuel was not injury prone before? I guess you missed his college career… Short summary- 2009- Missed spring practice after breaking his index finger on the first play. Played through a tear in his right shoulder all season and had surgery in the spring. 2010- Sprained the AC joint in his left shoulder-missed 2 games. Fractured his left leg during the bowl game that year-but continued playing. Scouting Report: Durability is a legitimate concern- has a big frame that has taken a lot of punishment over the years and has been forced to miss considerable time. Add his numerous injuries with the Bills – yes, he has to be considered injury prone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 They also made an understandable but ultimately dumb decision in the off season to tell him not to run. That hurt him in a lot of ways. Yes, he got injured three different times in his rookie season, but he was never injury prone before, and you could see what happened each time. If he was going to be a good QB in this league he had to be able to run, even though he was never a "running QB" per se even in college. By drilling it into him not to run, and all but eliminating the zone read kind of plays where he is a threat to run, and totally limiting his rollouts where he can easier avoid the rush, it hurt his progress. In retrospect it was a mistake, like a lot of others. Again, at first blush it is understandable because of the injuries. But this isn't RGIII we're talking about. He's not slender or frail. And if he turned out to be, he's going to be out of the league in a year anyway. They should have just coached him to be a little smarter, but still be yourself. EJ Manuel was not injury prone before? I guess you missed his college career… Short summary- 2009- Missed spring practice after breaking his index finger on the first play. Played through a tear in his right shoulder all season and had surgery in the spring. 2010- Sprained the AC joint in his left shoulder-missed 2 games. Fractured his left leg during the bowl game that year-but continued playing. Scouting Report: Durability is a legitimate concern- has a big frame that has taken a lot of punishment over the years and has been forced to miss considerable time. Add his numerous injuries with the Bills – yes, he has to be considered injury prone. So you're saying he missed two games in four years and he's injury prone. Got it, doc. In 2011 I think they played 13 games (9-4) and he played in 12 btw, so he missed one game and maybe part of another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Truth Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 GM pushing his 1st round bust on potential head coaching candidates. That always works out well. I'd say thanks but no thanks and run far away. From the "glowing terms" Whaley is using to describe EJ because let's just forget they signed Orton late and benched EJ after 4 games just a few months ago, it sounds like they won't be looking for any competition for EJ either. Back to square one, broken record and so on. I hope I'm wrong but you took the words right out of my mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Marrone did the exact opposite of this. In retrospect, it was a terrible decision and amounted to genuinely bad tactics. I think Marrone and Hackett understood the concept that Chip Kelly is actually implementing and started in that direction. The best EJ we ever saw was early on in August of 2013 when he was running that attacking no-huddle in preseason and running thru gaping holes for 20 yard gains was part of his choices. I contend that when Ralph died everything changed. The 3 year plan became a now or never. Marrone changed everything to create a situation where he wouldn't be accountable for losing. Up-tempo scrapped. Adjusting scheme to the QB scrapped. Play not to lose implented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Is this part of why Marrone left? EJ is horrible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadbeef Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 I'll join those that think EJ has a solid chance of being good. Everyone says he has the arm, but the big difference between him and many busts like Losman or Jamarcus Russell is his intelligence and excellent work ethic. QBs need time to learn to read defenses and know the playbook. They become good when they intuitively and automatically know where to throw the ball instead of thinking about it. The "game slows down" as they call it after the first few seasons. With work ethic, coaching, and brains he can get there. He was said to know the playbook like the back of his hand. But reading a defense is a challenge. He is a film junkee, works after practice, and studies hard to learn but it takes time. Once he knows where to go with the ball on a play call for a given deference he'll have success. Once he can do it automatically in a split second without thinking he'll be a solid starter. Who knows when or if he'll get there but I think a good coach can get him there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Read the draft scouting reports on EJ That is exactly what he has been with the Bills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Read the draft scouting reports on EJ That is exactly what he has been with the Bills Ummmmmm... because that's who he was and he hasn't been developed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) A week ago the prevailing wisdom as "Marrone is fine but he needs to fire Hackett" Now all of a sudden we've gotten to "I want to see more of Hackett and EJ should be the guy at QB!" WTF? Have we entered bizarro world? Hackett was AWFUL for two years AND he was EJ's coach BTW. EJ is exactly who the scouting reports said he was: great kid, works hard, strong arm, struggles to make reads, is inaccurate The more I read this thread and the deep, deep desire some have to buy into freaking EJ and Hackett the more I wonder if Marrone had a point. Is it hopeless here? Have we already forgotten EJ's pitiful performance this season that got him benched for a doughy guy whose was halfheartedly into playing, doesn't like to practice or exercise, showed up right before the season started to collect a pile of cash, and likes to drink Jack and dip? Maybe St. Doug was saving us from the insanity of OBD. If they are truly hell-bent on EJ being the guy we'll be right here next season with the GM search. I could see where a coach would get tired of fighting that nonsense. A few of the more respect posters (many of whom told us that Marrone was doing a good job because he didn't have a QB) are now starting to argue that EJ was never given a shot and we ought to be on board with more EJ. That worries the crap out of me, because it feels like it is coming right from Russ Brandon and OBD. Edited January 6, 2015 by TheFunPolice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordong Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 LaConfora hears otherwise: https://twitter.com/JasonLaCanfora/status/552469812207955968 https://twitter.com/JasonLaCanfora/status/552469976071036933 Again 100% different then what Vic is saying so what's really the truth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 The more I read this thread and the deep, deep desire some have to buy into freaking EJ and Hackett the more I wonder if Marrone had a point. Is it hopeless here? Sometimes when it appears you are entering bizzarro world, it's most prudent to look inward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted January 6, 2015 Author Share Posted January 6, 2015 Read the draft scouting reports on EJ That is exactly what he has been with the Bills qbs are not plug and play from college to NFL. It is very rare to not need to develop them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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