NoSaint Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Exaaaactly, not to mention if its so easy why don't teams go for it more often? It's just a step dudes! Also, didn't that NYT article say every coach is conservative?? i believe i saw the conversion rate for rushes on 4th and 2 or less the last 4-5 years was 2 out of 3. With only a single year below 70% and qb sneaks (ie the true 4th and inches, not 4th and 2) being at 80 something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 I agree with AW, but at the same time wouldn't he expect his defense to be able to stop an opposing offense on 4th and 1? It may be "just a step", but it's a step the defense is expected to stop just as much as the offense may be expected to convert. Kind of a weak argument. Yes he would, but he's talking about the his offense challenging the opposing defense for 1 yard. Why would it matter what the other team's defense thinks of itself? The Bills D is pretty solid. Not a weak argument, therefore.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnwalter Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 “I encourage Coach to be aggressive and just believe in the defense,” Williams said. “I tell myself this and I joke about it, but sometimes I really mean it. I feel like if we can’t make a fourth-and-1, we shouldn’t be able to win that game. Fourth-and-1 is literally just taking one step.” But it’s a step Marrone isn’t often willing to take. Maybe it’s not always fourth-and-1, but there have been numerous examples of him playing it safe in circumstances that cry out for a bold move. Punting on fourth-and-6 from Miami’s 47, down by 10 points with 9:55 left in the game, for one." Marrone's not willing to go for it on Fourth and One, just like that time he didn't go for it on Fourth and Six. Please. haha i love this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Generally speaking, coaches don't have a problem with players publicly stating they would like the opportunity to make more plays. That's pretty much all that AW did. Virtually every 4th down decision that a coach makes - ALL the players ALWAYS want to go for it. The specific situation that JS listed is one that I have a difficult time agreeing with. It was 4th and 6 from about midfield with about 9 minutes left in the game. Especially when you factor in who plays QB and who plays on defense for the Bills, I'd punt every single time given that scenario. The "bubble" for Marrone in that scenario is probably 3-4 yards. Anything longer is too low a % to justify going for it. This is true. Even in very simple terms, If your qb is averaging 4.9 YPA, 4th 6 is a long shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 I think the teams with the best offenses go for it on 4th down the most. That kinda skews the numbers. The opposite is true: http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/4th-down-efficiency/2014/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 (edited) The opposite is true: http://www.sportingc...fficiency/2014/ I had hoped I deleted it fast enough. I believe the teams with the highest efficiencies are high-powered offenses, right? Edited November 20, 2014 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnwalter Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 The opposite is true: http://www.sportingc...fficiency/2014/ this is because teams with bad offenses are often bad. this means that they are often losing at the end of the game and so are forced into making desperate fourth down attempts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 I had hoped I deleted it fast enough. I believe the teams with the highest efficiencies are high-powered offenses, right? Raiders are #1 at 80% lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Raiders are #1 at 80% lol. Outlier. Look at 2013 for a better picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Outlier. Look at 2013 for a better picture. Well, Carolina is in the top 5 and even the Jets, Redskins and Vikings are at 50%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heitz Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 i believe i saw the conversion rate for rushes on 4th and 2 or less the last 4-5 years was 2 out of 3. With only a single year below 70% and qb sneaks (ie the true 4th and inches, not 4th and 2) being at 80 something Interesting - crazy that more coaches don't go for it then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Well, Carolina is in the top 5 and even the Jets, Redskins and Vikings are at 50%. In 2013 or 2014? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 I don't agree with his 4th down calls either. But nothing like firing a coach after his team couldn't even practice, he had to spend the week at the facility and couldn't leave, and he spent the rest of his time digging people's cars out of snow banks. I don't think we should/will fire Marrone if we lose to the jets, especially after the storm caused us to miss practice, but he should be relieved of his duties at the end of the season. The most important 3 game stretch for this franchise in a decade and we come up with zero wins? 2 games at home vs AFC east opponents. No thank you. He's not the man to run this franchise back to respectability IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 I don't think we should/will fire Marrone if we lose to the jets, especially after the storm caused us to miss practice, but he should be relieved of his duties at the end of the season. The most important 3 game stretch for this franchise in a decade and we come up with zero wins? 2 games at home vs AFC east opponents. No thank you. He's not the man to run this franchise back to respectability IMO. Well, it wasn't 2 games at home against AFC East opponents. It was one. And now it's looking like it will be zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fridge Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Well, it wasn't 2 games at home against AFC East opponents. It was one. And now it's looking like it will be zero. They were incredibly important back-to-back games and they came after a bye week. We blew a lead in both games, and it as crazy as it sounds, it's because the lead wasn't big enough. We never capitalized on our early starts, and settled for field goals, allowing KC and Miami to comeback. I'd like a new coach (I don't need the decision made now) but I just can't see how he instills confidence in his players, especially the defense, where they've done well enough to win a lot of these games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted November 20, 2014 Author Share Posted November 20, 2014 I don't think we should/will fire Marrone if we lose to the jets, especially after the storm caused us to miss practice, but he should be relieved of his duties at the end of the season. The most important 3 game stretch for this franchise in a decade and we come up with zero wins? 2 games at home vs AFC east opponents. No thank you. He's not the man to run this franchise back to respectability IMO. Which 3 game stretch are you talking about? Again, I don't now if Marrone is the right guy for the HC job here but judging him at all based on the upcoming game is crazy IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 They were incredibly important back-to-back games and they came after a bye week. We blew a lead in both games, and it as crazy as it sounds, it's because the lead wasn't big enough. We never capitalized on our early starts, and settled for field goals, allowing KC and Miami to comeback. I'd like a new coach (I don't need the decision made now) but I just can't see how he instills confidence in his players, especially the defense, where they've done well enough to win a lot of these games. What about all last year, when this team "was playing with fire every week." Do we forget the head hanging that existed throughout past regimes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 They were incredibly important back-to-back games and they came after a bye week. We blew a lead in both games, and it as crazy as it sounds, it's because the lead wasn't big enough. We never capitalized on our early starts, and settled for field goals, allowing KC and Miami to comeback. I'd like a new coach (I don't need the decision made now) but I just can't see how he instills confidence in his players, especially the defense, where they've done well enough to win a lot of these games. You're going to refer to a 9-3 lead as a "blown" lead...to make you point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 At least one guy supports Marrone. That's cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fridge Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 You're going to refer to a 9-3 lead as a "blown" lead...to make you point? Yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 You're going to refer to a 9-3 lead as a "blown" lead...to make you point? that we settled for 3 fgs doesnt particularly strengthen the counter argument either. it was an ugly game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fridge Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 that we settled for 3 fgs doesnt particularly strengthen the counter argument either. it was an ugly game. I mean that was my whole "point". That it should have been 17-3. I kind of just want to slip away and keep reading people defend Marrone. I wasn't in the right head space to appreciate it during the Gailey or Jauron years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Spot on AW! Paraphrasing - "have faith in defense for 3 stops. Even if it's at our own 20". Get with the times Capitulate Doug. This is not 1980's football Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 I mean that was my whole "point". That it should have been 17-3. I kind of just want to slip away and keep reading people defend Marrone. I wasn't in the right head space to appreciate it during the Gailey or Jauron years. Being in the opposition party is easy. All you get to do is fling **** around and call everyone a horse's ass. Believe it or not, there's a grey area between that (you) and a guy who thinks Marrone is Lombardi incarnate. Just because i'm not slamming my fists into my keyboard to smear the guy, doesn't mean I think he's anything special. He's not. He's also not NEARLY has ****ty as the mob would have you believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 I'll take him as our new coordinator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 I'd rather have Aaron Williams as our OC than Nate Hackett. Williams' probably has the better resume. I'll take him as our new coordinator. Larry David's dad wasn't a NFL coach so he couldn't get a job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Well, it wasn't 2 games at home against AFC East opponents. It was one. And now it's looking like it will be zero. Which 3 game stretch are you talking about? Again, I don't now if Marrone is the right guy for the HC job here but judging him at all based on the upcoming game is crazy IMO. The 3 games after the bye. KC, Miami and the jets. This weeks game still matters. While chances are slim we make the playoffs still, slim chance is better than 0% chance. And it's not judging him by one game. It's judging him by everything he's done in buffalo since he's been here, including a monumental stretch of games after the bye in which we've lost 2 consecutive. With questionable play calling and scaredy cat decision making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 The 3 games after the bye. KC, Miami and the jets. This weeks game still matters. While chances are slim we make the playoffs still, slim chance is better than 0% chance. And it's not judging him by one game. It's judging him by everything he's done in buffalo since he's been here, including a monumental stretch of games after the bye in which we've lost 2 consecutive. With questionable play calling and scaredy cat decision making. If it's as bad as everyone says, between the two games, name five bad play calls and three scaredy cat decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 If it's as bad as everyone says, between the two games, name five bad play calls and three scaredy cat decisions. 1 td in 2 games with your playoff lives on the line with your supposed upgrade veteran qb. Keep making excuses for a mediocre Big East offensive coaching staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 1 td in 2 games with your playoff lives on the line with your supposed upgrade veteran qb. Keep making excuses for a mediocre Big East offensive coaching staff. still shaking that bye week rust off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBillsWillRiseAgain Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 If it's as bad as everyone says, between the two games, name five bad play calls and three scaredy cat decisions. 6 straight passes in the redzone when Boobie Dixon is averaging 6.1 yards per carry in that game(KC) Not going for it on 4th down at their 4 yard line(KC) Not going for it on 4th down with 8 minutes left when you're down by 10(MIA) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 1 td in 2 games with your playoff lives on the line with your supposed upgrade veteran qb. Keep making excuses for a mediocre Big East offensive coaching staff. I gave you very simple metrics to prove that the RESULTS you're bitching about are a consequence of the things you claim them to be. I'll wait. 6 straight passes in the redzone when Boobie Dixon is averaging 6.1 yards per carry in that game(KC) Not going for it on 4th down at their 4 yard line(KC) Not going for it on 4th down with 8 minutes left when you're down by 10(MIA) Well, the first thing never happened. And if even it did happen the way you said it did, you mean to tell me that on two of those passes where receivers were running wide open in the endzone and the QB just missed them...that's...the coach's fault? Okay. It's clear you're willing to reassess your assumptions. Also, two plays in two games does not three plays make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 6 straight passes in the redzone when Boobie Dixon is averaging 6.1 yards per carry in that game(KC) Not going for it on 4th down at their 4 yard line(KC) Not going for it on 4th down with 8 minutes left when you're down by 10(MIA) They should have passed when the ran and they should have ran when they passed. Anyone can see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 And to wit, the final drive of the KC game was: Pass (9) yards, followed by two runs (for a total of one yard). Followed by four throws into the endzone, two of which were open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 They should have passed when the ran and they should have ran when they passed. Anyone can see that. Well running the ball when you're averaging 5 ypc and not throwing 48 times with Kyle Orton against the #1 pass defense would make too much sense. Tricky Nate. And to wit, the final drive of the KC game was: Pass (9) yards, followed by two runs (for a total of one yard). Followed by four throws into the endzone, two of which were open. And if this was a one game thing, I'd get your point. This has been a subpar offense since Marrone took over. This is a league that wants you to pass deep and we don't. Also, they keep our best G on the bench for 8 gameS. Why? It's amazing that anyone can defend our awful offense coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Well running the ball when you're averaging 5 ypc and not throwing 48 times with Kyle Orton against the #1 pass defense would make too much sense. Tricky Nate. And if this was a one game thing, I'd get your point. This has been a subpar offense since Marrone took over. This is a league that wants you to pass deep and we don't. Also, they keep our best G on the bench for 8 gameS. Why? It's amazing that anyone can defend our awful offense coaches. False. It's been a subpar REDZONE offense. It's the REDZONE that's our buggaboo. I don't get it either. But to say we have systemic OFFENSE issues, I argue that's false. I feel like arguments like these are much better had in person, in real time. If only there was a recording of me doing precisely that... hmmmmm.... https://soundcloud.com/bills-and-beers/week-12-miami-review-new-york-jests-preview /shame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 False. It's been a subpar REDZONE offense. It's the REDZONE that's our buggaboo. I don't get it either. But to say we have systemic OFFENSE issues, I argue that's false. I feel like arguments like these are much better had in person, in real time. If only there was a recording of me doing precisely that... hmmmmm.... https://soundcloud.com/bills-and-beers/week-12-miami-review-new-york-jests-preview /shame I heard an interview that said in Denver, Orton was great at putting up passing yards and not scoring tds. Well, that pattern is consistent. It's why judging success by passing yards or total yards is dumb and outdated. Points win games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstealer Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 I like the play calling. It's way better than previous three staffs--A couple more better players and we're in buisness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBillsWillRiseAgain Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 (edited) Well, the first thing never happened. And if even it did happen the way you said it did, you mean to tell me that on two of those passes where receivers were running wide open in the endzone and the QB just missed them...that's...the coach's fault? Okay. It's clear you're willing to reassess your assumptions. Also, two plays in two games does not three plays make. Actually it did happen. And yeah, because I named 2 instead of your arbitrarily demanded 3 examples my point is totally invalid. I also named 6 stupid plays instead of 5. Edited November 20, 2014 by TheBillsWillRiseAgain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 I heard an interview that said in Denver, Orton was great at putting up passing yards and not scoring tds. Well, that pattern is consistent. It's why judging success by passing yards or total yards is dumb and outdated. Points win games. Did you just...agree? With me? Actually it did happen. And yeah, because I named 2 instead of your arbitrarily demanded 3 examples my point is totally invalid. I also named 6 stupid plays instead of 5. Actually it didn't happen. Pass, run, run, pass, PASS, pass, PASS. Nowhere in there are six straight passes. CAPS for bad throws, should have been TD's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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