Walt Coleman and company

[Not at the table Karlos]

 

 

The PI was definitely too close to have made that call, but the intentional grounding was clearly the correct call. Orton got rid of the ball before Watkins even had time to cut back towards the sideline. So when Orton got rid of it, Watkins was actually running towards the middle of the field with his back to the ball. The only reason Orton threw it so soon was because of the pressure. If he had waited for the route to develop he would've been sacked.

 

And the holding went both ways. There were at least a couple instances where Miami's D line was clearly being held, yet no call.

 

With a 2-0 turnover differential, Buffalo had plenty of opportunities to win the game. They didn't get any help from the refs, but that most definitely isn't the reason they lost. The O line crumbled in the second half, and once Orton got rattled he just wasn't the same.

the textbook defense of the pass was clearly legal and in no way shape or form have been called a PI. Not even close. I'll re watch again to see the holding on both ends. All the bills holds I saw were called by the officials however I could have missed some. The tackle that was on Mario held him 95% of the time. Mario should have had around 7 sacks if not for the holds.

 

the intentional grounding was absolute crap. Tannehill had 2 throw aways that were way worse and they weren't called and sammy was within a reasonable distance to catch the ball. Nobody I'm their right mind would call that intentional grounding. With out the refs the dolphins only scored 6 pts on their own.

[GG]

But that's sort of the point of the intentional grounding penalty. Orton knew that he didn't have enough time for the route to develop, but he threw it anyway to avoid the sack. Watkins was a good 10 yards away from the ball.

 

It's key to look at where Watkins was at the time of release. If Watkins cuts left, he's exactly where the ball landed. Orton released the ball before Watkins' break.

 

Intentional grounding is a bullcrap penalty, because it's up to a bonehead like Walt Coleman to make a judgment call. A pass like that is IG, but Brady throwing a totally uncatchable ball at the feet of his RB is not? Baloney. Intention is to avoid a sack on both.

[finfanfromrochester]

It's key to look at where Watkins was at the time of release. If Watkins cuts left, he's exactly where the ball landed. Orton released the ball before Watkins' break.

 

Intentional grounding is a bullcrap penalty, because it's up to a bonehead like Walt Coleman to make a judgment call. A pass like that is IG, but Brady throwing a totally uncatchable ball at the feet of his RB is not? Baloney. Intention is to avoid a sack on both.

 

well I wouldn't compare that play to those where Brady or Manning hits the ground in front of the RB. Usually those passes occur within a yard or two of the RB. The thing about the IG call was the fact that Watkins did make that cut toward the middle of the field right after Orton gets rid of it. So while the ball is in the air going towards the sideline, Watkins is actually running away from it for an instant. After he makes the cut back towards the sideline, it's way too late and the ball falls a good 6-7 yards away from him. That's a pretty substantial distance. I've been watching it over and over and, to me, it just seems like the right call. But in reality it could've easily gone either way.

 

I suppose my point is that it's not as awful of a call as folks on this board are making it out to be. Definitely controversial, though.

[34-78-83]

The bad reffing certainly doesn't excuse the horrible offensive execution in the 2nd half, but the PI on Gilmore was certainly horrific in nature as was the "bump" on Hughes which was clearly not intentional at all. The Gilmore play would be a coaches tape used in training a corner just exactly how to perfectly cover that particular route. Such incompetence ....

[GG]

well I wouldn't compare that play to those where Brady or Manning hits the ground in front of the RB. Usually those passes occur within a yard or two of the RB. The thing about the IG call was the fact that Watkins did make that cut toward the middle of the field right after Orton gets rid of it. So while the ball is in the air going towards the sideline, Watkins is actually running away from it for an instant. After he makes the cut back towards the sideline, it's way too late and the ball falls a good 6-7 yards away from him. That's a pretty substantial distance. I've been watching it over and over and, to me, it just seems like the right call. But in reality it could've easily gone either way.

 

I suppose my point is that it's not as awful of a call as folks on this board are making it out to be. Definitely controversial, though.

 

That's the whole point. Usually IGs are very obvious. This one was not because Orton was looking at Watkins and released the ball well before Watkins made his break. IG penalty is a mockery of the game since they allowed QBs the leeway to throw it away outside the tackles. It's now a bigger judgment call for the inept referees.

[TC in St. Louis]

My original post was trying to make the point that the Bills were so bad in the second half that it made the bad officiating irrelevant. In fact, the team is irrelevant. They were so bad, they almost made me forget about the officiating.

 

Almost.

 

The thing that bugged me most about the grounding call was when they called that referee consultant guy, who of course is going to suck up to the refs on the field. He is full of crap too. The more that guy talked, the more he sank himself in the quicksand. They just handed 2 points to the Fins.

 

But three plays earlier we had an 8 yard run wiped out on a questionable holding call on our center. Questionable in the respect that they allowed holding all night on the Fins, why choose that particular moment to throw a flag? Took us from 2nd and 2 at the 28 to first and 20 from the 10.

 

Walt Coleman was the ref who invented The Tuck Rule? I forgot about that!! He must live on the Gillette Plantation.

[Helpmenow]

Bills have won 9 out 14 games with Walt Coleman

[BarleyNY]

My original post was trying to make the point that the Bills were so bad in the second half that it made the bad officiating irrelevant. In fact, the team is irrelevant. They were so bad, they almost made me forget about the officiating.

 

Almost.

 

The thing that bugged me most about the grounding call was when they called that referee consultant guy, who of course is going to suck up to the refs on the field. He is full of crap too. The more that guy talked, the more he sank himself in the quicksand. They just handed 2 points to the Fins.

 

But three plays earlier we had an 8 yard run wiped out on a questionable holding call on our center. Questionable in the respect that they allowed holding all night on the Fins, why choose that particular moment to throw a flag? Took us from 2nd and 2 at the 28 to first and 20 from the 10.

 

Walt Coleman was the ref who invented The Tuck Rule? I forgot about that!! He must live on the Gillette Plantation.

You are correct in that assessment. Arguing so much about the grounding penalty would make one think that it was the reason the Bills lost and that is completely false. Not being able to score a TD - even when starting at the Dolphins' 35 yard line - is the reason the Bills lost.

[TallskiWallski83]

Hughes and M Williams were pissed off all game because they were being held all game long and the refs werent calling jackshit. The only holding call was the one on Kyle Williams when the dolphins were in the redzone.

 

The dolphins O line was severely outnumbered in yesterdays game. If the refs called holding tight the dolphins would haev never been able to move the ball. Mario Kyle Dareus and Hughes were blowing up the LOS all night long.

 

It reminded me of Marios first game with us against the jets and he got held on literally every play.

 

 

Its always crazy to say the games are "fixed". But after the offides and PI on chandler against the chiefs and the non holding calls, the intentional grounding and the terrible terrible PI call on Gilmoure, im really starting to wonder.

Edited November 14, 2014 by TallskiWallski83

[plenzmd1]

Bills have won 9 out 14 games with Walt Coleman

 

now thats interesting!

 

 

...where do you find stuff like that? Si many different things i would like to look up but have no idea where or how

[Helpmenow]

now thats interesting!

 

 

...where do you find stuff like that? Si many different things i would like to look up but have no idea where or how

 

Profootballref

[All_Pro_Bills]

That's the whole point. Usually IGs are very obvious. This one was not because Orton was looking at Watkins and released the ball well before Watkins made his break. IG penalty is a mockery of the game since they allowed QBs the leeway to throw it away outside the tackles. It's now a bigger judgment call for the inept referees.

My problem with intentional grounding is the ref's are trying to judge the QB's intent. Did Orton throw that ball specifically to avoid a loss or was the intent to attempt a completion to the receiver, in this case Watkins who cut inside rather than to the sideline. Given the reciever was still in the picture and the inside cut occured as the ball was released I'm not sure how you can be certain Orton was just throwing it away.

 

The entire receiver in the area concept is pretty weak at times. As mentioned before the QB throws the ball at the feet of the lineman when a screen play gets blown up but since a receiver is 'in the area' its not grounding regardless of the fact we know he threw it away because the play was busted and he was surely avoiding a loss.

 

Coleman's crew blew that call. That all said, the Bills were handed a wonderful opportunity to turn the tables when they recovered the ensuing fumble on the free kick but did nothing with that chance.

[GG]

My problem with intentional grounding is the ref's are trying to judge the QB's intent. Did Orton throw that ball specifically to avoid a loss or was the intent to attempt a completion to the receiver, in this case Watkins who cut inside rather than to the sideline. Given the reciever was still in the picture and the inside cut occured as the ball was released I'm not sure how you can be certain Orton was just throwing it away.

 

The entire receiver in the area concept is pretty weak at times. As mentioned before the QB throws the ball at the feet of the lineman when a screen play gets blown up but since a receiver is 'in the area' its not grounding regardless of the fact we know he threw it away because the play was busted and he was surely avoiding a loss.

 

Coleman's crew blew that call. That all said, the Bills were handed a wonderful opportunity to turn the tables when they recovered the ensuing fumble on the free kick but did nothing with that chance.

 

Yup, that was a weak call based on how the play developed.

 

Also agree that the call was not the deciding factor in the game. But it helped grease the skids of the second half free fall.

[The Big Cat]

I'm actually struggling to determine why intentional grounding is even a penalty. When so many loop holes exist to get out of it, when throwing the ball away results in a lost down anyways and when plays like last night demonstrate that no metric exists for determining"vicinity"...WHY is it even a penalty? To whose benefit?

 

Orton threw the ball at the feet of his running back TWICE last night. That's intentionally grounding the football to avoid pressure. Yet some arbitrary "vicinity" rule exists to make that instance okay and others not? It makes no sense to me.

 

Here's a suggestion: establish a two yard halo around the quarterback so he can't essentially spike it when he's under obvious pressure.

 

And permit every other form of "grounding" that's out there now. Because if a guy can wind up and throw it 25 yards...he wasn't "about" to be sacked.

Edited November 14, 2014 by The Big Cat

[nucci]

The PI was definitely too close to have made that call, but the intentional grounding was clearly the correct call. Orton got rid of the ball before Watkins even had time to cut back towards the sideline. So when Orton got rid of it, Watkins was actually running towards the middle of the field with his back to the ball. The only reason Orton threw it so soon was because of the pressure. If he had waited for the route to develop he would've been sacked.

 

And the holding went both ways. There were at least a couple instances where Miami's D line was clearly being held, yet no call.

 

With a 2-0 turnover differential, Buffalo had plenty of opportunities to win the game. They didn't get any help from the refs, but that most definitely isn't the reason they lost. The O line crumbled in the second half, and once Orton got rattled he just wasn't the same.

I have to respectfully disagree. I can find plays very similar that happen every game. That was a horrible call.

 

Everyone who says you can't blame the refs, those calls were very critical and had a huge effect on the game. I know Bills did not play well but the bad calls are very significant.

[The Fredonia Curse]

Did anyone notice that first play from scrimmage was an OPI as the dolphins wide out set a pick about 3 yards up the field. Was some great foreshadowing on how the rest of the game would go.

[The Big Cat]

I have to respectfully disagree. I can find plays very similar that happen every game. That was a horrible call.

 

Yeah. Shocking the fins fan is the only person...Bills fan or otherwise...who hasn't referred to the call as one of the "worst" he/she has ever seen.

 

I've gotten texts today from Steelers fans, from Bears fans, from Packers fans and from people who don't give a **** about the NFL but watch college football saying as much. Chris Wessling from the NFL Network said as much on the Around the NFL Podcast this morning.

 

It wasn't the "correct" call, it wasn't even a "close" call, it was HORRIBLE call.

[Freddie's Dead]

If you see Walt Coleman is the ref for a Bills game, be afraid, be VERY AFRAID.

[Maybe Someday]

Had Orton thrown a better pass he would not have been called for IG. Sammy's route appeared to be a post-->flag double move. Orton just needed to throw it 5-10 yards further than he did. So while the call was close and I wasn't happy about it, I can see why they called it. The PI on Gilmore was complete BS.

 

Every nfl game has questionable calls or non calls against both teams. We as fans skew them based on the team we root for. Saying the refs were the reason we lost this game is watching the game through blue and red glasses. Fact of the matter is we just aren't a very good team. We have a lot of talent but just don't know how to win.

 

Off topic...I found it interesting that on the post game show that even Deion pointed out that our offense is very predictable.

[Fixxxer]

After the intentional grounding

 

 

Not a fan of either team but that call is ridiculous

 

 

Lol what?

 

Sorry, Bills fans. That was a bad penalty. Should've been a no-call to be honest.

 

That was a terrible call.

 

bad call

 

 

After the Gilmore PI, the last two are Phin fans.

 

Wow, refs are screwing the Bills tonight

 

Err uh... that was a bad call too. Sorry again, Bills fans.

 

yeah that was a bad call

 

 

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