smuvtalker Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 I too am sick of seeing EJ consistently checking down to a three yard pass, then consistently missing wide open receivers when he does attempt a pass longer than 10 yards, or getting his receivers obliterated by leading them into vicious hits. My first impulse in responding to this poll was to say start EJ, and my reasoning is this. The Detroit game is going to be very tough. I have dreams of Suh crashing through the line and just destroying EJ on multiple occasions. Detroit is a tough team, and I have the game penciled as a loss for us. I want Orton to get a shot, but I was thinking after the next two games. Let EJ get the Detroit game, he has had better time to prepare, and then give him one last home game vs the Pats. If he has shown no improvement on his accuracy, or a willingness to throw the ball more than 10 yards down the field, yank him and get Orton in there. As much as I have hope that EJ can improve, I just don't see it happening. With that said, even though I voted for EJ starting the next game, I would not be the least bit upset if Orton is starting Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Duck Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 Giving Kyle Orton a chance with the team at 500 vs being in the hole puts less pressure on Orton IMO . I've seen nothing in the last two games that makes me think EJ Manuel is making strides reading Defenses and seeing the field. QB situation for the Bills is really getting old... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 if Kyle Orton can't play better than EJ, they wasted $5 mil. this QB mess is ALL on Whaley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 oh come on. In. +1 +1 +1 +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPS Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 i REJECT the notion that EJ will be "ruined" if he misses a few games. he missed 6 games last season. And look at him now!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpberr Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 The offense needs basic, competent quarterbacking. They are not getting that with E.J. That game yesterday is won with basic competency. For the life of me I don't understand why a general manager, head coach and offensive coordinator stake their careers on forcing the premise that Manuel is that kind of quarterback or more. Make the change. At least see what you have. There is no unwritten rule E.J. can't be a starter down the road. This is a playoff-caliber squad but we're going nowhere with E.J. besides a season of learning and growing pains. It's wasted miles on our talented vets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountDorkula Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 Doesn't matter. Neither will be playing O line. Can't run the ball. Unless they make EJ an option QB - second coming of Vick. That might fit his game. they were averaging almost 5 YPC yesterday... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndirish1978 Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 EJ will "develop" this team right into a 4-12 season. Yesterday killed any hope I had for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 Orton 2 years/ 5 games with Dallas. Orton Passer Rating 95.5 that would put him in the Top 15 of 2014 Orton will play better than EJ. this division is still in play. it is wrong to let EJ "develop" at the expense of this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsguy Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 The offense needs basic, competent quarterbacking. They are not getting that with E.J. That game yesterday is won with basic competency. For the life of me I don't understand why a general manager, head coach and offensive coordinator stake their careers on forcing the premise that Manuel is that kind of quarterback or more. Make the change. At least see what you have. There is no unwritten rule E.J. can't be a starter down the road. This is a playoff-caliber squad but we're going nowhere with E.J. besides a season of learning and growing pains. It's wasted miles on our talented vets. How low has the bar been set when Bills fans are begging for a failed journeyman QB (Orton) to start over a failed 1st round draft pick (Manuel) in the search for basic competency? OUCH! What would happen if the Bills actually had a quality QB again? I know it has been 20 years or so since the last quality QB and I hope I live long enough to see the next one. What I do know is that the current QB situation is woeful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDIGGZ Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 would you guys be calling for Orton if we pulled out a win? probably not. you guys would be singing EJ's praises. "he is clutch, he can win with the game on the line!" if they call pass interference on the throw to Woods and we have a first and goal instead of a an interception then we probably win the game. same thing happened with the Carolina game last year but the difference was we got the call our way and then everyone was saying how it was EJ's breakout game and he can get the job done with the game on the line. i think we were 1 call away from this thread not existing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean Cain Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 Orton is a .500 career starter at 35-35, no thank you. Manuel with good coaching would be a serviceable option. Let me make this clear with a competent HC & OC like Chip Kelly we wouldn't be in the situation we're in right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FistingBot Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 Orton is a .500 career starter at 35-35, no thank you. Manuel with good coaching would be a serviceable option. Let me make this clear with a competent HC & OC like Chip Kelly we wouldn't be in the situation we're in right now. So your point is that Manuel hasn't received "good coaching" and he can legitimately lead this team to a championship (or at least the playoffs) with "good coaching?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanC883 Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 As I've said elsewhere... Ideally I'd like to stick to developing EJ, since I don't know if Orton is any good. BUT, we also have too much talent on this team to waste... so I'm wondering if we should give Orton a couple weeks to see if we are any more successful in moving the ball. If not, then let EJ start and continue to work on improving through experience. My answer is very unstable at the moment, though. Not really sure what to think. I would tend to agree with this assessment. EJ looses nothing by watching an experienced veteran on the field for a few games and getting to hear the calls, see the adjustments, etc. from the sideline. Last year he had the benefit of watching Lewis and Tuel, not exactly great learning from material. Orton is a .500 career starter at 35-35, no thank you. Manuel with good coaching would be a serviceable option. Let me make this clear with a competent HC & OC like Chip Kelly we wouldn't be in the situation we're in right now. was Orton a .500 starter on teams with this much talent. Prob not. I have a feeling Orton can make the throws to our playmakers that EJ, at this point, cannot make. Not sure how Chip Kelly would help Manuel make better decisions. Orton 2 years/ 5 games with Dallas. Orton Passer Rating 95.5 that would put him in the Top 15 of 2014 Orton will play better than EJ. this division is still in play. it is wrong to let EJ "develop" at the expense of this season. exactly. Not only the division, but a wildcard are still in reach. if Kyle Orton can't play better than EJ, they wasted $5 mil. this QB mess is ALL on Whaley. yeah, at least find out what they spent the $5mill on. As others have said, we are wasting the talents of the vets by letting EJ continue to "tryout" on this team. And, there is no rule that he can't start later in the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobobonators Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 Is it me, or were young QB's benched more frequently 15-20-30 yrs ago? I feel that this entire conversation implies that benching EJ next week is the final nail in the coffin for his NFL career. Isn't that thinking kind of drastic? Bench the guy and start Orton for a couple of weeks and see how that goes. If it's a disaster, put EJ back in there after he's had a mental break. Is EJ that mentally fragile that he can't handle being benched? I hope not. We don't have that much money tied to EJ where we HAVE to start him to see what he can do. We've seen what he can do for 14 games (starting to become a fair sample size but maybe not quite there yet) and the result after 14 games is: he needs some time to regroup. I would tend to agree with this assessment. EJ looses nothing by watching an experienced veteran on the field for a few games and getting to hear the calls, see the adjustments, etc. from the sideline. Last year he had the benefit of watching Lewis and Tuel, not exactly great learning from material. was Orton a .500 starter on teams with this much talent. Prob not. I have a feeling Orton can make the throws to our playmakers that EJ, at this point, cannot make. Not sure how Chip Kelly would help Manuel make better decisions. exactly. Not only the division, but a wildcard are still in reach. yeah, at least find out what they spent the $5mill on. As others have said, we are wasting the talents of the vets by letting EJ continue to "tryout" on this team. And, there is no rule that he can't start later in the season. This is exactly where I'm at today bro. It's clear that EJ is psyched out right now and the game might be moving too fast for him. Let him ride the pine a bit and regroup mentally. The guy wasn't a clear cut can't miss prospect coming out of college and we thrust him at starting QB from day 1. He may just need some time to absorb the league. I don't see anything wrong with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Caveman Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 The best we're doing with Orton at QB is a first round playoff loss. The absolute earliest I could see pulling Manuel would be after the first NE game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bills Fan in MD Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 EJ. This team (like most NFL teams) is reluctant to admit mistakes, particularly at the QB position. How many years did it take for the Bills to admit that Rob Johnson wasn't the guy, or J.P. Losman, or Trent Edwards? Each of those guys showed flashes of being the next franchise QB and, as a result, it took the front office and coaching staff ages to finally cut bait and move on. Even Fitz looked like he could be a steady hand at the wheel for a good long time, so the team rewarded him with a big extension. If EJ isn't the guy, this team needs to know NOW and move on. And unless people think Orton can lead them to a magical season, starting him would only delay the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 I still think if Jeff Tuel got as many chances as EJ has the Bills would be better off. For the record, I don't think Tuel deserved more chances than he was given. That said, you've brought up an interesting point. Over the past 40 years, the Bills have used 25% of their first picks of the draft on DBs, and another 25% on RBs. That's half their first picks of the draft, while positions like OT and QB have been largely neglected. In identifying reasons why this pattern existed, one poster pointed to the fact that DBs and RBs are considered relatively easy positions to evaluate. If the Bills' front office has typically shied away from using early picks on OTs or QBs, it's because they've generally lacked the competence to evaluate those players successfully. What happens when a front office which isn't good at talent evaluation decides it must use a first round pick on a QB anyway? When something like that happens, you're typically going to get a QB with very good measurables. It's much easier to determine whether a quarterback is physically gifted; than it is to figure out if he has the accuracy or fast information processing ability needed to succeed in the NFL. This emphasis on physical gifts results in QBs like Losman and Manuel. The question the Bills should be asking isn't where Manuel was picked. They should ask where he should have been picked, based on the data available. Based on the accuracy and decision-making he displayed in college, Manuel should not have been selected before the fourth round. (And that's being extremely generous.) Suppose a fourth round pick played the way Manuel is playing. Would a standard-issue NFL team sit their Kyle Orton so that their poorly performing fourth rounder could be given playing time and chances to develop? No, they absolutely would not do that. The only reason to play Manuel at this point is because of his first round status. The Bills chose him in the first round not because he'd demonstrated good accuracy or decision-making--he hadn't--but because he was physically gifted and he interviewed well. Good interview skills are not sufficient reason to write off a season. Especially not when you've already traded away next year's first round pick to Cleveland! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted September 29, 2014 Author Share Posted September 29, 2014 Big difference between last week's poll and this week's poll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 (edited) For the record, I don't think Tuel deserved more chances than he was given. That said, you've brought up an interesting point. Over the past 40 years, the Bills have used 25% of their first picks of the draft on DBs, and another 25% on RBs. That's half their first picks of the draft, while positions like OT and QB have been largely neglected. In identifying reasons why this pattern existed, one poster pointed to the fact that DBs and RBs are considered relatively easy positions to evaluate. If the Bills' front office has typically shied away from using early picks on OTs or QBs, it's because they've generally lacked the competence to evaluate those players successfully. What happens when a front office which isn't good at talent evaluation decides it must use a first round pick on a QB anyway? When something like that happens, you're typically going to get a QB with very good measurables. It's much easier to determine whether a quarterback is physically gifted; than it is to figure out if he has the accuracy or fast information processing ability needed to succeed in the NFL. This emphasis on physical gifts results in QBs like Losman and Manuel. The question the Bills should be asking isn't where Manuel was picked. They should ask where he should have been picked, based on the data available. Based on the accuracy and decision-making he displayed in college, Manuel should not have been selected before the fourth round. (And that's being extremely generous.) Suppose a fourth round pick played the way Manuel is playing. Would a standard-issue NFL team sit their Kyle Orton so that their poorly performing fourth rounder could be given playing time and chances to develop? No, they absolutely would not do that. The only reason to play Manuel at this point is because of his first round status. The Bills chose him in the first round not because he'd demonstrated good accuracy or decision-making--he hadn't--but because he was physically gifted and he interviewed well. Good interview skills are not sufficient reason to write off a season. Especially not when you've already traded away next year's first round pick to Cleveland! Tahj Boyd was EJ lite. And he went in the 5th, I think. Edited September 29, 2014 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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