Sick of Marone Being Down on Backups but Coddling EJ

[machine gun kelly]

I don't care if they light fires or pat his back and give him ice cream.... As long as it works for him.

 

I tell non Bills fans I know; EJ is everything you want in a QB...until he steps on the field. I live down in J-Ville, so I've seen plenty of Bortals the last few weeks. Poise, pocket presence and decisiveness are what I've seen in him. Bortals does appear to have some accuracy issues but damn, the game doesn't seem to overwhelm him like it does EJ.

It makes me think that accuracy isn't what will hold EJ back in the end. Maybe the game will slow for EJ someday but it pains me to see other young QB's progress as rookies, and our guy regress.

 

I also live in FL and it's Bortles. You are right though he looks much better in pre-season. We'll see. Jax defense looks like they stepped forward as well.

[Lurker]

It shouldn't be used selectively.

Except when it can't be. To compare the importance of an OLB to a QB is not even worth debating.

 

I'm struggling to think of an example of a QB competition that ultimately was beneficial to a team. If you have an open competition at QB, all it means is neither guy is very good.

[GG]

yeah, this could be a real problem if they needed next years first rounder for a QB. My guess is either Whaley or a different GM would go the FA route for a QB. There will be no patience for another draft choice.

 

Good QBs never hit free agency. If there's a free agent QB, it's either their old team screwed up (rare) or there are a lot of questions about his ability.

 

The only possible decent QB who may be available is Alex Smith

[nucci]

Although the preseason looked horrible offensively, I thought Manuel played well last year, and if he didn't get hurt in the Cleveland game, the season likely would have had a much better outcome. Probably would have won that game and gone on from there.

I think many are forgetting the bright side of his play as a rookie, missing lots of time.

I will give him more regular season time to judge his performance.

agree. I know these are only highlights and not the bad plays but he did do some things well last year.

 

[Who is Yuri?]

Jeff Tuel has twice as many touchdowns this preseason, a higher completion percentage, a higher quarterback rating, and gains twice as many yards as EJ per scramble.

 

That's pretty decent competition already on the roster. Personally, I'd like to see Tuel given some time with the starters. I like the cut of his jib.

[GG]

Jeff Tuel has twice as many touchdowns this preseason, a higher completion percentage, a higher quarterback rating, and gains twice as many yards as EJ per scramble.

 

That's pretty decent competition already on the roster. Personally, I'd like to see Tuel given some time with the starters. I like the cut of his jib.

 

EJ has looked far better against second stringers than Tuel. What's your point?

[Thunderstealer]

What I gather from reading this board is this: fans want the players and coaches to mirror their emotions and thoughts publicly. If they don't there is hell to pay!

 

What I gather from reading this board is this: fans are sick of watching garbage.

[Superb Owl]

EJ has looked far better against second stringers than Tuel. What's your point?

 

EJ always plays with 1s against 1s, or 2s sometimes

Tuel always plays with 2s against 2s, or 1s sometimes

 

I have a suspicion our 2s on offense are worse relative to most 2s, than our 1s compared to 1s. Don't know it to be the case, but it could explain some puzzling things like Thad regressing

[26CornerBlitz]

EJ scored two touchdowns with the entire starting offense playing against second stringers. Tuel scored with backups against backups. Advantage Tuel.

 

A simplistic and factually incorrect understanding of what actually occurred. Cool story.

Edited August 29, 2014 by 26CornerBlitz

[Hardcore Bills Fan]

EJ is the best QB on the team he deserves to start.

[Superb Owl]

Out of all 116 QBs that played this preseason

 

We had three in the bottom 7 (Thad, Dixon, Palmer)

 

Supports the idea that it's difficult to play with our 2s

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/stats/playersort/nfl/year-2014-season-pre-category-passing

 

(Click "all players" and the "all" button at the bottom, and click "rating" to sort by rating)

Edited August 29, 2014 by Just Nguyen Baby

[Who is Yuri?]

EJ is the best QB on the team he deserves to start.

 

A simplistic and factually incorrect understanding of what actually occurred. Cool story.

 

18 points per game is better than 11 points per game. Can we agree?

 

In 23 possessions this pre-season, with EJ at the helm, the Bills punted 9 times (40%). They scored scored 2 touchdowns against backups (9%). They scored 4 fieldgoals (17%). That's amounted to 22 points. They averaged 0.956 points per possession. If you factor in, that one of EJ's fumbles was returned directly for a touchdown, then they averaged 0.65 points per possession. If you consider the fact that one of his interceptions was converted for a touchdown, well, I am glad that it is you who are defending EJ and not me. There's an average of 12 possessions per team in the NFL. Will 11 points per game be enough?

 

In 11 possessions this pre-season, with Tuel at the helm, the Bills punted 2 times (18%). They made a FG (9%), and missed one. He threw (with his arm) for 2 touchdowns (18%). That amounted to 17 points. They averaged 1.54 points per possession. That's about 150% of what they averaged with EJ. The only points recorded off Tuel's turnovers was a FG. Over the average 12 possession game you could expect Tuel's offense to score 18 points.

 

I'd rather have an offense that scored 18 points per game than an offense that scored 11 points, even if it is the preseason.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Franz Kafka

[26CornerBlitz]

In 23 possessions this pre-season, with EJ at the helm, the Bills punted 9 times (40%). They scored scored 2 touchdowns against backups (9%). They scored 4 fieldgoals (17%). That's amounted to 22 points. They averaged 0.956 points per possession. If you factor in, that one of EJ's fumbles was returned directly for a touchdown, then they averaged 0.65 points per possession. If you consider the fact that one of his interceptions was converted for a touchdown, well, I am glad that it is you who are defending EJ and not me. There's an average of 12 possessions per team in the NFL. Will 11 points per game be enough?

 

In 11 possessions this pre-season, with Tuel at the helm, the Bills punted 2 times (18%). They made a FG (9%), and missed one. He threw (with his arm) for 2 touchdowns (18%). That amounted to 17 points. They averaged 1.54 points per possession. That's about 150% of what they averaged with EJ. The only points recorded off Tuel's turnovers was a FG. Over the average 12 possession game you could expect Tuel's offense to score 18 points.

 

I'd rather have an offense that scored 18 points than an offense that scored 11 points, even if it is the preseason.

 

It's preseason.....It's preseason....It's preseason. Please stop trying to gain meaning out of an utterly meaningless preseason statistical analysis. It's beyond comical Look at all of these 2014 preseason leaders: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/stats

Edited August 30, 2014 by 26CornerBlitz

[RuntheDamnBall]

 

 

It's preseason.....It's preseason....It's preseason. Please stop trying to gain meaning out of an utterly meaningless preseason statistical analysis. It's beyond comical Look at all of these 2014 preseason leaders: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/stats

Are you trying to tell me that Brice Butler isn't on the verge of a career year?

[Sweet Lou]

Touche Franz ! Very descriptive and indeed a teaser for those who are still on top of the fence.

[26CornerBlitz]

Are you trying to tell me that Brice Butler isn't on the verge of a career year?

 

Budding Super Stars on that list I tell ya! Hope the Bills get them all and make sure you snap them all up in your fantasy draft if you partake.

[T master]

I don't know . I want to give EJ every possible chance to prove that he is our guy because he is a great guy .

 

But every time he hits the field he really shows us nothing !! So i think as previous regimes have done in B/Lo Marrone will die by the OC/QB & go back to prove that he can bring another losing college squad back to .500 status ..

 

YAY !! GO DOUG !!

[Who is Yuri?]

It's preseason.....It's preseason....It's preseason. Please stop trying to gain meaning out of an utterly meaningless preseason statistical analysis. It's beyond comical Look at all of these 2014 preseason leaders: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/stats

 

In the regular season last year, Thad Lewis had a better completion percentage, and QBR than your man EJ Manuel.

 

Granted, Jeff Tuel didn't have the greatest regular season, but he hasn't been given the same opportunities as the other gentlemen.

[GG]

Are you seriously trying to argue that Tuel is better than EJ?

[26CornerBlitz]

In the regular season last year, Thad Lewis had a better completion percentage, and QBR than your man EJ Manuel.

 

Granted, Jeff Tuel didn't have the greatest regular season, but he hasn't been given the same opportunities as the other gentlemen.

 

Thad Lewis is unemployed. QBR Tuel sucks.

 

Are you seriously trying to argue that Tuel is better than EJ?

 

Some Bills' fans are........."interesting"

[Sweet Lou]

26 Corner;

The pre-season is already over for us and for what it's worth, a leopard can not change their spots.

(And the coach along with the QB that he's married to by the way, are the leopards)

Thou shalt not have any competition for my ego challenged, fragile QB bride. Loyalty to the end,uh coach ?

You two deserve each other. And on a lighter note; A big shout out to 3rd and 12. Thank You my brother.

Lou

[26CornerBlitz]

26 Corner;

The pre-season is already over for us and for what it's worth, a leopard can not change their spots.

(And the coach along with the QB that he's married to by the way, are the leopards)

Thou shalt not have any competition for my ego challenged, fragile QB bride. Loyalty to the end,uh coach ?

You two deserve each other. And on a lighter note; A big shout out to 3rd and 12. Thank You my brother.

Lou

 

Whatever you say Sweet one.

[BarleyNY]

 

 

Incompetence runs rampant at One Bills Drive. The glimmer of hope for Bills fans is that a new owner is imminent. Bills fans can hope for an owner who hires professionals. A serious top notch club CEO or president who hires an experienced GM with a winning track record. The new GM will hire a head coach with the same attributes. The current management is a joke. Russ Brandon has no football pedigree. He is largely an empty suit. Doug Whaley is inexperienced and hasn't proven he is a legit NFL GM. Doug Marrone looks like a high school coach. The coaching staff, with a couple exceptions, is way under-qualified. (i.e. offensive coordinator)

 

New owner = clean house = hope for the future!!!

 

Sadly, I agree with that assessment.

[Kemp]

Why? How often are franchise QB's found in the 1st round? Seriously. Not having a 1st rounder is not a huge deal. This team is loaded w talent. I think the bigger mistake was not bringing Josh McCown in.

 

Which team is loaded with talent?

[GG]

While the book remains to be written about EJ, it's a completely different comic book to argue that Tuel is better.

[Kemp]

I truly believe EJs biggest problem is Hacket. He plays so much better when he stops thinking and just plays football.

 

EJ's biggest problem is accuracy.

 

People can bring up this and that, but in the end, if the QB can't hit a receiver in stride, nothing else matters.

[dayman]

While the book remains to be written about EJ, it's a completely different comic book to argue that Tuel is better.

 

Not sure if I understand this post but if it means to say that there is no doubt Tuel is worse than EJ than it's not something I agree with. Ej should be better but he's BARELY better with 100X the support/chance.

[3putt]

EJ simply does not seem ready and may never be ready. The Bills coaches have not messed him up because these are the same concerns that made scouts think he was a raw prospect.

 

Having said that I have lost all confidence in the Bills HC and OC. I already was critical of them overestimating what they had in Tuel and Lewis, but then to play Palmer most of the game when he had to barely know the playbook was foolish. In the short term the only back up that is going to know the playbook and have even a reasonable chance to do well is Jeff Tuel. Marrone just seems to continue to badly mishandle this QB situation.

lol..you're funny! Oh wait...nevermind.

[Who is Yuri?]

It's preseason.....It's preseason....It's preseason. Please stop trying to gain meaning out of an utterly meaningless preseason statistical analysis. It's beyond comical Look at all of these 2014 preseason leaders: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/stats

 

If EJ had 40 attempts or so this pre-season, like proven quarterbacks in the league, and only had one touchdown against backups, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt, not that he's earned it. EJ Manuel led the NFL this preseason in passing attempts. He was one of 3 quarterbacks to play in 5 games.

 

EJ Manuel: 5 games, 82 attempts, 1 touchdown.

 

Ryan Nassib: 5 games, 74 attempts, 5 touchdowns

 

Eli Manning: 5 games, 41 attempts, 1 touchdown

 

EJ Manuel had more of a chance to prove himself this preseason than any other QB in the NFL. It may not mean everything, but it surely means something.

[Ramius]

I know that you want to mischaracterize the mental side of any player you don't believe in, but the book on EJ was that his mechanics were a work in progress, not his smarts.

 

O RLY? Paging Ramius.

 

 

You're dead on. EJ is nowhere near stupid. He's a very smart individual. (here's where holcombs arm links to the tomahawk nation article trashing EJ, and again completely ignoring the fact that Tomahawk nation hated EJ and had it out for him his entire time in Tallahassee)

 

His biggest issues in college were his inconsistency, and his penchant to be inaccurate on some throws, which, watching him, looked like it was largely attributable to footwork issues. What you will find about EJ when you do some looking, is that he was a great leader down here. Took ultimate responsibility for and mistakes, even when they were clearly another players fault. He was highly respected and known for his intelligence. And he has all the physical talent in the world.

 

People forget that he was a project and stil considered raw. And sorry, being drafted in the 1st round doesn't make you less raw or mean he'll develop faster.

 

This preseason he did not look good. The best way i can explain it is that he isnt playing like he played here in college. The dumpoffs and robotic type play are not who he was down here. It sure seems like hes thinking too much and not simply playing.

 

As for the people that hated him down here? They hated him because he was a highly touted 5 star recruit but he didnt win a national title. Some people down here had ridiculously standards for him and held it against him when they didn't reach the mountaintop. Not to mention the team overall was less talented when EJ was under center.

[run dat back]

The problem is lack of real competition. He has the job no matter what

 

Exactly, and what's Marrone gonna do, start ripping EJ publicly when there (was) only Tuel and Palmer behind him?

 

They made a move and drafted a 1st round QB. Whether or not he's going to be serviceable, they are gonna give him the mandatory three seasons to find out. Unless he completely tanks this year, that is. I don't think he will. I think he'll show flashes of good play but still be something of a question mark by season's end.

[26CornerBlitz]

If EJ had 40 attempts or so this pre-season, like proven quarterbacks in the league, and only had one touchdown against backups, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt, not that he's earned it. EJ Manuel led the NFL this preseason in passing attempts. He was one of 3 quarterbacks to play in 5 games.

 

EJ Manuel: 5 games, 82 attempts, 1 touchdown.

 

Ryan Nassib: 5 games, 74 attempts, 5 touchdowns

 

Eli Manning: 5 games, 41 attempts, 1 touchdown

 

EJ Manuel had more of a chance to prove himself this preseason than any other QB in the NFL. It may not mean everything, but it surely means something.

 

I don't care! Give me stats beginning on 9/7/14. Bye now!

[BarleyNY]

The problem is lack of real competition. He has the job no matter what

No. The problem is a lack of a franchise QB. Are you hearing anyone with one of those complaining about a lack of competition at the QB spot? Didn't think so.

[Orton's Arm]

In the regular season last year, Thad Lewis had a better completion percentage, and QBR than your man EJ Manuel.

 

Granted, Jeff Tuel didn't have the greatest regular season, but he hasn't been given the same opportunities as the other gentlemen.

 

QBR is a new stat, and should not be confused with legacy statistics such as quarterback rating. It's more complicated to calculate QBR--also known as total quarterback rating--than it is to calculate the old quarterback rating stat.

 

Last season, Thad Lewis had a very good yards per attempt stat. Significantly better than Manuel's. The kind of yards per attempt stat where you'd say, "This guy could be a starter for a few years, and things would be okay. Not great, but okay." On the other hand, Lewis's QBR stat was abysmal. Worse than Manuel's. The kind of QBR stat which would make you think he'd be lucky to have a roster spot, even as a third stringer.

 

I'm a big fan of both yards per attempt and QBR. I cannot think of another example in which the two stats pointed in such diametrically opposite directions as they did with Thad Lewis. I sometimes wondered, Which of these stats is telling us the true story about Thad's performance, and which is the red herring? This preseason we learned the answer.

 

All this being said, I agree with you that Manuel is very unlikely to become any sort of long-term answer at quarterback. People greatly differ in their ability to process complex information quickly. Manuel never did anything on a college football field to suggest above-normal information processing ability. He ran a simplified college offense, and generally threw to his first read or his dump-off option. There's only so much you can do to coach information processing ability. (Just as there's a limit to the extent to which diet and exercise can alter a player's size.) His information processing ability is likely to be his Achilles Heel; though accuracy is of course a concern as well.

[Orton's Arm]

You're dead on. EJ is nowhere near stupid. He's a very smart individual. (here's where holcombs arm links to the tomahawk nation article trashing EJ, and again completely ignoring the fact that Tomahawk nation hated EJ and had it out for him his entire time in Tallahassee)

 

His biggest issues in college were his inconsistency, and his penchant to be inaccurate on some throws, which, watching him, looked like it was largely attributable to footwork issues. What you will find about EJ when you do some looking, is that he was a great leader down here. Took ultimate responsibility for and mistakes, even when they were clearly another players fault. He was highly respected and known for his intelligence. And he has all the physical talent in the world.

 

People forget that he was a project and stil considered raw. And sorry, being drafted in the 1st round doesn't make you less raw or mean he'll develop faster.

 

This preseason he did not look good. The best way i can explain it is that he isnt playing like he played here in college. The dumpoffs and robotic type play are not who he was down here. It sure seems like hes thinking too much and not simply playing.

 

As for the people that hated him down here? They hated him because he was a highly touted 5 star recruit but he didnt win a national title. Some people down here had ridiculously standards for him and held it against him when they didn't reach the mountaintop. Not to mention the team overall was less talented when EJ was under center.

 

> EJ is nowhere near stupid. He's a very smart individual.

 

Trent Edwards is also a very smart individual. He got accepted into Stanford. Unlike most other schools, Stanford does not compromise its admissions criteria to let in athletes.

 

Based on his Stanford pedigree and the recommendation from Bill Walsh, I thought that Trent Edwards had what it took to quickly process information on a football field. I was wrong. The reason he became known as "Captain Checkdown" was because he couldn't process information quickly enough to intelligently determine when there existed a good opportunity to throw the ball down field. After the Edwards experiment failed, I became more interested in what a college quarterback had done to demonstrate fast information processing ability on a football field than in a classroom.

 

EJ Manuel has good social intelligence. He comes across well in interviews. All of that is well and good, and suggests he should be able to handle the leadership aspects of the quarterback position. But nothing about his career thus far--either in college or the NFL--suggests he's gifted at quickly and accurately processing spatial, football-related information.

[4merper4mer]

 

 

> EJ is nowhere near stupid. He's a very smart individual.

 

Trent Edwards is also a very smart individual. He got accepted into Stanford. Unlike most other schools, Stanford does not compromise its admissions criteria to let in athletes.

 

Based on his Stanford pedigree and the recommendation from Bill Walsh, I thought that Trent Edwards had what it took to quickly process information on a football field. I was wrong. The reason he became known as "Captain Checkdown" was because he couldn't process information quickly enough to intelligently determine when there existed a good opportunity to throw the ball down field. After the Edwards experiment failed, I became more interested in what a college quarterback had done to demonstrate fast information processing ability on a football field than in a classroom.

 

EJ Manuel has good social intelligence. He comes across well in interviews. All of that is well and good, and suggests he should be able to handle the leadership aspects of the quarterback position. But nothing about his career thus far--either in college or the NFL--suggests he's gifted at quickly and accurately processing spatial, football-related information.

 

OMFG for the thousandth time the Bill Walsh comments were a practical joke he played on Marv. He was notorious for that.

[finn]

I don't entirely blame the Bills for drafting E.J. I was pessimistic at the time because I thought they might have been so enamored with his physical attributes that they were deliberately overlooking the problems that caused other teams to pass on him--the same mentality, in reverse, that appears to have caused the Bills to pass on Russell Wilson. But I realize you have to roll the dice on qb's. But that is just what has bummed me out since then---the Bills went all in on this iffy (i.e., not Luck or Manning) prospect. Just like they went all in on Fitzpatrick. It's like they sit on their hands for years then suddenly panic and lunge at whoever is right in front of them at the time. Just in the last few years they've passed on Nassib, Tannehill, Kaepernick, Wilson, Glennon, Dalton, Manziel... and, yes, Geno Smith and Gabbert and a host of mediocrities, too. My point is that they should have been drafting qb's every year--maybe two a year--until they really had someone. It's ok to draft a bust; every team has done so. But it's NOT ok to draft an iffy prospect, decline to bring in competition, then basically cut off your chief recourse in case he's a bust. Even if the Watkins turns out to be terrific, it was still an appalling move to give up the 2015 first round pick for him when the qb spot is unsettled. Think how selfish that move was on the part of Whaley. He figured he'll be fired anyway if Manuel is a bust, so why not go all in with a splashy wr? He isn't gambling with HIS future--he's already committed to Manuel--he's gambling with the BILLS' future, adding still another year of purgatory for the Bills fans if the gamble doesn't work out. Maybe this is just the legacy of Ralph Wilson playing out its last act: one last mediocre front office and coaching staff doing its mediocre thing. But what a cruel little gift Whaley will be giving us and his successor on his way out. He not only leaves a mess but takes away all the cleaning supplies as he leaves. A nice big FU to all of us.