DC Tom Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 If he "gunned it" to try to scare him and things "just went wrong," then Stewart is responsible. If he gunned it to try to avoid him (if Stewart didn't have the worst temper on earth, I might buy this; but he does have the worst temper on earth), that's a different story. The fact that the kid got out of the car and put himself in harm's way was stupid ... we can all agree on that. But that doesn't necessarily clear Stewart of wrongdoing altogether. Second-worst. The kid that gets out of his vehicle and tries to start an argument with another car has the worst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Really... Not to be disrespectful. Is this a Darwin Award finalist? Don't run out onto the track and try to confront your opponent in motorsports. HINT: The car usually wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Anyway, I guess there really is only three "sports." Mountain climbing, bullfighting, and motor racing. The rest are games. I think mountain climbing qualifies as "an activity". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 (edited) So let's say there's a shooting competition at a shooting range. Someone "not all there" goes running out into the shooting range, near the targets. Would you ... a) Expect the shooters to stop shooting their guns because there would be a good chance they could accidentally shoot the person who foolishly entered the range. b) Expect the shooters to keep trying to hit their targets, because after all, it's "what they do." They're there to shoot their guns, dammit! So how does target practice relate to driving a race car, on a dirt surface, at a poorly lit track, at night hitting a guy wearing a black helmet, and black firesuit compare? It would probably be more like this. You're driving a race car, during a race, on a DIRT surface on a poorly lit track. You touch another car, that car wrecks. You drive back around the track at a slower pace (40-50mph). While coming to the point of the crash the car in front you swerves to the left and standing there is a man in a black fire suit and black helmet, what do you do? A. swer…….too late, you just hit him. Edited August 10, 2014 by Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 I think mountain climbing qualifies as "an activity". It's a "sport" in the classic Hemingway sense. The quote is attributed to Ernest Hemingway. There is debate if it was really him that said it. So how does target practice relate to driving a race car, on a dirt surface, at a poorly lit track, at night hitting a guy wearing a black helmet, and black firesuit compare? It would probably be more like this. You're driving a race car, during a race, on a DIRT surface on a poorly lit track. You touch another car, that car wrecks. You drive back around the track at a slower pace (40-50mph). While coming to the point of the crash the car in front you swerves to the left and standing there is a man in a black fire suit and black helmet, what do you do? A. swer…….too late, you just hit him. Exactly. We are all armchair QB's watching in slo-mo. Stewart is on the track doing 50 at that point. Put that into context, somebody jumps out @ you on the expressway... NOW react! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clockwork Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 What a terrible situation. The young man died, a total shame. I've read several reports of eyewitnesses saying that Stewart "gunned it before the accident. If investigators believe that to be true, Stewart will be going to jail, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 What a terrible situation. The young man died, a total shame. I've read several reports of eyewitnesses saying that Stewart "gunned it before the accident. If investigators believe that to be true, Stewart will be going to jail, right? Someone more educated in racing might be able to chime in but from very early reports it seems possible that hitting the gas could have easily been part of an evasive maneuver with this style of car. The tweets from lastnight sounded bad though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimBob2232 Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 What a terrible situation. The young man died, a total shame. I've read several reports of eyewitnesses saying that Stewart "gunned it before the accident. If investigators believe that to be true, Stewart will be going to jail, right? If you watch the video, with audio, there is no doubt Stewart stepped on the accellerator. Why he did will be the subject of much debate, but it is 100% clear to me that he did hit the accelerator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Someone more educated in racing might be able to chime in but from very early reports it seems possible that hitting the gas could have easily been part of an evasive maneuver with this style of car. The tweets from lastnight sounded bad though. Sprint cars have a very high power-to-weight ratio (3/4 ton, up to 900hp - half the weight and 20% more horsepower than a stock car) with rear wheel drive. Because of that, steering is accomplished as much by throttle as steering, since the front wheels don't get enough traction to steer effectively, with all the power in the rear. So if Stewart gunned the engine, it's entirely possible he did so in an attempt to avoid Ward - if you watch the film, Stewart's front wheels stay straight, which is apparently common with trying to "power-steer" a Sprint car. Also, the right rear tire's larger than the left rear (as much as twice as wide) to help push the car into left turns. There's a possibility that Stewart, in trying to avoid Ward, misjudged the distance. There's also a possibility that, no matter what Stewart did, Ward was going to get run over. Those cars have unpredictable handling outside the very narrow range they're tuned for on a given track; getting as close to a moving one as Ward did is insane. I still don't see how the blue car missed him, frankly. Frankly, we just don't know...we have one video to go off of, involving cars I'd bet no one here's ever driven at all, let alone competitively. The only thing we really do know is that Ward tried to pick a fight with a car and got run over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 If you watch the video, with audio, there is no doubt Stewart stepped on the accellerator. Why he did will be the subject of much debate, but it is 100% clear to me that he did hit the accelerator. It is because that's what you do when you are racing... Step on the accelerator! The only thing we really do know is that Ward tried to pick a fight with a car and got run over. Thank you! /end thread. Next race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 What a terrible situation. The young man died, a total shame. I've read several reports of eyewitnesses saying that Stewart "gunned it before the accident. If investigators believe that to be true, Stewart will be going to jail, right? In the main video I saw the camera was in the grandstands. The accident happened on the other side of the track. It's quite possible that the sound of the car "gunning" it was on the start/finish side of the track nearest the grandstands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountryCletus Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Wait and see what NASCAR does... Not a good video to watch... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 The only thing we really do know is that Ward tried to pick a fight with a car and got run over. I don't know follow this stuff but that is the one obvious thing in the video. I'm going to guess from the track and the look of the cars that making them difficult to control is part of the action. The real question is, how does someone's decision making process lead them to walk into the middle of a race track? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 I don't know follow this stuff but that is the one obvious thing in the video. I'm going to guess from the track and the look of the cars that making them difficult to control is part of the action. The real question is, how does someone's decision making process lead them to walk into the middle of a race track? Picking a fight with a NASCAR driver would get him on ESPN...sadly, if that was his motivation he got his wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Picking a fight with a NASCAR driver would get him on ESPN...sadly, if that was his motivation he got his wish. Picking a fight with Tony Stewart is one thing. Picking a fight with Tony Stewart's vehicle is something altogether different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 The real question is, how does someone's decision making process lead them to walk into the middle of a race track? The are desensitized to the fear. There are a lot of things I do everyday @ work that get me to think: "Gee maybe I shouldn't have done that." Now especially when you are young, one tends to misjudge those situations even more. One slip up and you make the Darwin list. "Perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." BUT... DO NOT get yourself killed! Obviously kid didn't pick so wisely and failed to mitigate/evaluate his risk. He forgot where he was and how dangerous it really was! Know your limits too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLZFAN4LIFE Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 The guy in front of Stewart was able to avoid this kid without accelerating. Stewart could clearly be heard to accelerate as he approached the kid. His car immediately fishtailed and hit him. Horrible tragedy for the family, but the kid had to be out of his mind. And Stewart is screwed. Looks like he was trying to scare the kid or come close to him. It looks deliberate (not that he wanted to clip the kid, but that he wanted to give him a "brush back"). Stewart racing at the Glenn proves he's a total a-hole. I see it exactly the same way that you do. I agree with most here that Kevin Ward Jr. should not have gone onto the track in anger to confront Stewart. However if you LISTEN to the video it is clear that Stewart guns his engine as he approaches Ward. Based on some comments here I believe that some people don't understand that the race was under caution which means cars slow down and no passing is allowed. The car in front of Stewart clearly avoids Ward by going slow and steering towards the bottom of the track. Now if anyone believes that Stewart didn't see Ward, you have to be out of your mind. He just put the kid into the wall at that location. Do you honestly believe that he wasn't paying attention to the accident site as he passed it under caution?!?!? Turn your volume all the way up and listen to the replay. The car in front of Stewart is silent. Stewart guns his engine. My guess is that he's trying to scare/intimidate Ward and it went horribly wrong. A car has a steering wheel, brake and gas pedal. When Stewart encountered Ward he chose to use his gas pedal. Any decent civil attorney will be able to fleece Stewart for millions and the Ontario Co. District Attorney should press charges. Stewart was negligent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 I don't think Weo is saying that he hit him on purpose, but if it was scaring the kid gone wrong - then there are certainly argument to be made that he was reckless/negligent IF that's what happened. This is exactly what I meant. Watch that video. See him accelerate and fishtail INTO the kid. If he was trying to scare the kid and the kid dies as a result, isn't this grounds for manslaughter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Best Player Available Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Ontario county Sheriff said Tony stewart cooperative during questioning. No criminal investigation ongoing. Information forwarded to Ontario County DA. Source WCYB I see it exactly the same way that you do. I agree with most here that Kevin Ward Jr. should not have gone onto the track in anger to confront Stewart. However if you LISTEN to the video it is clear that Stewart guns his engine as he approaches Ward. Based on some comments here I believe that some people don't understand that the race was under caution which means cars slow down and no passing is allowed. The car in front of Stewart clearly avoids Ward by going slow and steering towards the bottom of the track. Now if anyone believes that Stewart didn't see Ward, you have to be out of your mind. He just put the kid into the wall at that location. Do you honestly believe that he wasn't paying attention to the accident site as he passed it under caution?!?!? Turn your volume all the way up and listen to the replay. The car in front of Stewart is silent. Stewart guns his engine. My guess is that he's trying to scare/intimidate Ward and it went horribly wrong. A car has a steering wheel, brake and gas pedal. When Stewart encountered Ward he chose to use his gas pedal. Any decent civil attorney will be able to fleece Stewart for millions and the Ontario Co. District Attorney should press charges. Stewart was negligent. Question. Under caution in the dark of night and a person walking towards car on a racetrack wearing black What is your guess of the speed of "going slow" in sprint car racing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Ontario county Sheriff said Tony stewart cooperative during questioning. No criminal investigation ongoing. Information forwarded to Ontario County DA. Source WCYB Question. Under caution in the dark of night and a person walking towards car on a racetrack wearing black What is your guess of the speed of "going slow" in sprint car racing? Sheriff said 30-35 MPH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLZFAN4LIFE Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Ontario county Sheriff said Tony stewart cooperative during questioning. No criminal investigation ongoing. Information forwarded to Ontario County DA. Source WCYB Question. Under caution in the dark of night and a person walking towards car on a racetrack wearing black What is your guess of the speed of "going slow" in sprint car racing? I would estimate between 30 and 35 MPH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 This is exactly what I meant. Watch that video. See him accelerate and fishtail INTO the kid. If he was trying to scare the kid and the kid dies as a result, isn't this grounds for manslaughter? How can it ever be proven that he was trying to scare the kid? Unless, he said he was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Best Player Available Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 I would estimate between 30 and 35 MPH. I thing it is higher. here's some unconfirmed info from the accident. A portion of the field had not even reacted to the single yellow flag (caution) The pace car had not yet made it onto the track. Stewart under caution and some guesses were the field was running at around 50MPH i am nor defending him, but to understand sprint cars I think DV Tom explains it pretty well upthread. Seeing, a man at 50MPH running at you can cause different reactions. One would be FU and spray him. Another could be stunned and reacting. Kind of the split second decision someone has to make when a deer is crossing your path At that speed. My guess is Stewarts Go Pro camera onboard tells a lot of what happened and might explain his acceleration And the action he took. All sorts of crazy rumors flew around last night. Including he pitted and had his crew remove The right rear tire. Most of them are BS. But both cars have been impounded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 How can it ever be proven that he was trying to scare the kid? Unless, he said he was. If the expert conclusion is that by accelerating just before contact, that Stewart was not performing an evasive maneuver, the only other explanation is that Stewart was "brushing back" the kid. I thing it is higher. here's some unconfirmed info from the accident. A portion of the field had not even reacted to the single yellow flag (caution) The pace car had not yet made it onto the track. Stewart under caution and some guesses were the field was running at around 50MPH See above. On his afternoon presser, the Sheriff said 3-35 mph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLZFAN4LIFE Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 I thing it is higher. here's some unconfirmed info from the accident. A portion of the field had not even reacted to the single yellow flag (caution) The pace car had not yet made it onto the track. Stewart under caution and some guesses were the field was running at around 50MPH i am nor defending him, but to understand sprint cars I think DV Tom explains it pretty well upthread. Seeing, a man at 50MPH running at you can cause different reactions. One would be FU and spray him. Another could be stunned and reacting. Kind of the split second decision someone has to make when a deer is crossing your path At that speed. My guess is Stewarts Go Pro camera onboard tells a lot of what happened and might explain his acceleration And the action he took. All sorts of crazy rumors flew around last night. Including he pitted and had his crew remove The right rear tire. Most of them are BS. But both cars have been impounded. Tony Stewart is the only person that knows exactly what he was thinking and how it happened. He does have a well documented history of being hot-headed and confrontational. I was just surprised to see that in a 3 page thread WEO seemed to be the only person that shared my take on the incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Best Player Available Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Tony Stewart is the only person that knows exactly what he was thinking and how it happened. He does have a well documented history of being hot-headed and confrontational. I was just surprised to see that in a 3 page thread WEO seemed to be the only person that shared my take on the incident. Can't argue that point. Stewart will be vilified and sponsors should be leaving by mid week.Amazingly the same thing happened at Watkins Glenn last night without the tragic result. And the driver wasn't quite as out of control like Ward Jr. Was.The smarter Way to make your point would have been after the race confront him and sucker punch him. seen that before. The kid seemed a tad hot headed himself with that crazy action. Tragic but what was he thinking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 If the expert conclusion is that by accelerating just before contact, that Stewart was not performing an evasive maneuver, the only other explanation is that Stewart was "brushing back" the kid. Huh? Its a race track, even under caution. All he has to say is: "I didn't see him." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Tony Stewart is the only person that knows exactly what he was thinking and how it happened. He does have a well documented history of being hot-headed and confrontational. I was just surprised to see that in a 3 page thread WEO seemed to be the only person that shared my take on the incident. I think that's because some of us are going only off the evidence on the tape, and you and WEO are guessing what he was thinking, and factoring in his reputation. I hear an engine rev. Stewarts? Who knows? I can't see every car on the track. Does the soundtrack identify which car is which? I have no idea what Tony sees, or doesn't see. And that another driver managed to miss him means absolutely nothing. I think DC Tom as the steering explanation right (I'm clueless about these kinds if vehicles) and could have been accelerating to slide past him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffaloed in Pa Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Only Tony knows what happened. 20yrs young ,what a shame. Feel for his family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Huh? Its a race track, even under caution. All he has to say is: "I didn't see him." Of course he will say whatever he wants. His onboard camera will help us know if that is true. The fact that he accelerated is not likely coincidental... I think that's because some of us are going only off the evidence on the tape, and you and WEO are guessing what he was thinking, and factoring in his reputation. I hear an engine rev. Stewarts? Who knows? I can't see every car on the track. Does the soundtrack identify which car is which? I have no idea what Tony sees, or doesn't see. And that another driver managed to miss him means absolutely nothing. I think DC Tom as the steering explanation right (I'm clueless about these kinds if vehicles) and could have been accelerating to slide past him. If you watch the video, I don't think you will conclude it was some other remote car accelerating just as Stewart fishtails into this kid. Don't get me wrong, this kid was foolish to walk into traffic. I like how "brushing back" has now become a term associated with racing. This thread has gotten out of hand with the accusations by guys that even though have never driven a race car on dirt, or probably even follow racing in general Really? "Out of hand". Please...I think the public is free to comment on what they see before them. Also, I know people who were present at the track and the immediate buzz was that Stewart swerved towards the kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 This thread has gotten ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 (edited) Of course he will say whatever he wants. His onboard camera will help us know if that is true. I'm confused. Are the drivers looking at a monitor showing what the camera sees? If that's the case I think you are correct. Otherwise what the camera shows and what he SAW could be two very different things. This thread has gotten ridiculous. And I just upped the ante. Edited August 10, 2014 by The Dean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 (edited) This thread has gotten ridiculous. And to make it more... Chara jams Max P... If he killed him? Would the same people wanting Stewarts head be saying the same thing? It's all in the game. This kid was totally wrong because he did NOT belong where he was, end of story... He had no right @ all to be there. His onboard cam is BS to an extent... It will never tell the whole story. Why do courts still use reporters if they have cameras... ? Edited August 10, 2014 by ExiledInIllinois Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Tony Stewart is the only person that knows exactly what he was thinking and how it happened. He does have a well documented history of being hot-headed and confrontational. I was just surprised to see that in a 3 page thread WEO seemed to be the only person that shared my take on the incident. I share your viewpoint, as well. I've been researching this since last night and it's apparently very common for drivers to exit their vehicle and walk out on the track after crashing, especially once the yellow flag comes out. It also appears that one of the rules when they are under yellow is that they are not allowed to accelerate. Further, two of the eyewitnesses who were situated near that turn and stated they saw everything - at least one of which was a fellow racer - stated that there's no way Stewart didn't see him, and that while Tony likely never meant to intentionally harm the kid, he clearly gunned his engine and attepted to scare him, and in this case things went terribly wrong and Ward ended up killed. The driver (Graves is his last name, I believe) also said that he feels Stewart should end up in jail. I watched the video before I knew he had passed and before I knew any of the details from witnesses, and the first thing I tweeted was how he clearly accelerated once the kid was near his vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 I'm confused. Are the drivers looking at a monitor showing what the camera sees? If that's the case I think you are correct. Otherwise what the camera shows and what he SAW could be two very different things. And I just upped the ante. Perhaps. But i assume the camera and his vision were pointing in a similar direction. He saw the car go off the track. He saw the car in front of him swerve towards the infield. Still didn't see him? I suppose it's possible. He has already told the cops whether or not he saw him.. Have you watched the video? Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Perhaps. But i assume the camera and his vision were pointing in a similar direction. He saw the car go off the track. He saw the car in front of him swerve towards the infield. Still didn't see him? I suppose it's possible. He has already told the cops whether or not he saw him.. Have you watched the video? Just curious. I've watched the video too many times (hard to take really). I think TS might have seen him too late, and then took evasive action. I mean, you simply don't expect a guy to be weaving on foot on a track among cars. Even if he saw him right away, it might take a minute to react. These drivers have good reactions, but this is a bizarre situation. You think he saw him early and, perhaps, tried to scare him. It's a tragedy for sure, but without knowing what he was thinking and why he accelerated, it's tough to say he is at fault. Drunk-walking on a racetrack is a foolish thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 (edited) If Stewart says he didn't see him, the entire discussion of the peculiar physics of dirt track cars is meaningless. I'm betting he admitting he saw him. He accelerated before contact while the driver in front of him was able to avoid contact. He would need the experts who review this for the Sheriff's Dept to conclude that he did exactly what he should have in this circumstance. Edited August 10, 2014 by Mr. WEO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 If Stewart says he didn't see him, the entire discussion of the peculiar physics of dirt track cars is meaningless. I'm betting he admitting he saw him. He accelerated before contact while the driver in front of him was able to avoid contact. He would need the experts who review this for the Sheriff's Dept to conclude that he did exactly what he should have in this circumstance. That sounds about right. And when I say, didn't see him, I mean see him in time to slow down to avoid him. I think he might not have seen him right away, not that he didn't see him at all. I mean, when he hit him I'm guessing he saw him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 What's also odd is that 5 cars were able to avoid hitting this man who was in the middle of the track like he was hailing a cab. Stewart was the 6th one to encounter him once he ventured into traffic, and the only one to accelerate instead of staying on the inside and slowing down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 What's also odd is that 5 cars were able to avoid hitting this man who was in the middle of the track like he was hailing a cab. Stewart was the 6th one to encounter him once he ventured into traffic, and the only one to accelerate instead of staying on the inside and slowing down. That why I said "didn't see him". I think he may not have seen him when the others did. It certainly looks as though that could be the case. I would assume that over a purposeful attack, with no better evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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