What is better, no guns, or more guns?

[Rockpile233]

1 minute ago, row_33 said:

 

 

Rockpile, you missed all of this conversation a few weeks ago, you are trying to start it all over again. Feelings are more divided than before.

 

Where were you?

 

In my small slice of life, I would actually argue feelings aren’t as divided.

 

Some of my biggest pro gun rights friends and coworkers are open to conversations on increasing the age requirements and looking closely at how we are securing schools. We all live together, conversations shouldn’t freak people out.

[Joe Miner]

Just now, Rockpile233 said:

 

You keep putting words in my mouth that legal ownership is a cause...it isn’t. 

 

If you just don’t think any of this is a big enough issue to do ANYTHING, then sure that’s a consistent opinion. I would say your opinion is becoming the minority one today.

 

Increasing the age limit a couple years isn’t any real assault on your rights. To say otherwise is mostly fear mongering.

 

 

Not to put words into your mouth, but you seem to have no supporting facts that legislation that reduces rights in this country will have any statistical impact on the problem.

 

And somehow you claim I'm fear mongering.

 

I'd say it's been a good debate, but...

 

I can't wait for you to trot out there idea that people are afraid to have a conversation again.  Next time you want to have a conversation bring some facts.

[TakeYouToTasker]

15 minutes ago, Rockpile233 said:

 

Before anyone points to the bill of rights...yes I understand the right to drive a vehicle is not found there, BUT

 

I got my license at age 16....yet it was a conditional license (couldn’t drive past 9:00pm, etc.). Even if you don’t support a federal age minimum at 21, can’t we at least make some conditions to gun ownership at younger ages? Additionally wait times, proof of safety courses, etc? Something!? 

 

 

The franchise is a far greater responsibility than gun ownership.

 

Any opinion on rolling back the "right" to vote until, say, 30?

 

Or perhaps placing qualifiers on the exercise of that right?  Say, by having to prove your competency with a test, or perhaps by achieving some success litmus, like owning property?

[Tiberius]

Brightbutt isn't happy 

 

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/02/28/trump-nra-gun-control/

 

 

8 minutes ago, Joe Miner said:

 

 

Not to put words into your mouth, but you seem to have no supporting facts that legislation that reduces rights in this country will have any statistical impact on the problem.

 

And somehow you claim I'm fear mongering.

 

I'd say it's been a good debate, but...

 

I can't wait for you to trot out there idea that people are afraid to have a conversation again.  Next time you want to have a conversation bring some facts.

worry  “In 1996, a gunman opened fire at a popular tourist destination on the Australian island of Tasmania and killed 35 people. Australia responded by reforming its gun laws. High powered rifles and shotguns were banned, and uniform gun licensing requirements were imposed for the guns that remained legal. The country also instituted a buyback program, which resulted in the destruction of more than a million guns. Firearm suicides and homicides quickly dropped. In the decade following the passage of the new law, the firearms homicide rate fell by 59% and the firearms suicide rate dropped by 65% — and there were no increases in other types of deaths.”

[LeviF]

30 minutes ago, Rockpile233 said:

Last I checked, full autos for personal ownership are not federally legal. Since when...the 80’s?

 

I get you are not modifying into a true fully automatic rifle, but if it’s having a similar effect we are splitting hairs. 

 

My argument is that a bump stock circumvents just as many regulations as a quick trigger finger does.

 

You can still own a full auto as an individual.  Takes a pretty penny and about two years of waiting, but you can.

 

Bump fire, believe it or not, is possible without a bump stock.  By your definition, we should ban bump fire altogether.  And really fast trigger fingers.  And aftermarket triggers.  The list goes on.

 

Of course, gun grabbers don't mind that at all.  But that's neither here nor there I guess.

 

 

 

 

[Rockpile233]

8 minutes ago, Joe Miner said:

 

 

Not to put words into your mouth, but you seem to have no supporting facts that legislation that reduces rights in this country will have any statistical impact on the problem.

 

And somehow you claim I'm fear mongering.

 

I'd say it's been a good debate, but...

 

I can't wait for you to trot out there idea that people are afraid to have a conversation again.  Next time you want to have a conversation bring some facts.

FBI Supplementary Homicide report:

 

Persons aged 18-20 made up 4.24% of the US Population and were the primary offender in 17.16% of all gun homicides for which the age of the offender was known.

 

18-20 year olds commit gun homicides at a rate nearly four times higher than adults 21 and older.

 

 

Would age restriction this stop mass shootings? No, but I would still support it.

 

[Joe Miner]

Just now, Rockpile233 said:

FBI Supplementary Homicide report:

 

Persons aged 18-20 made up 4.24% of the US Population and were the primary offender in 17.16% of all gun homicides for which the age of the offender was known.

 

18-20 year olds commit gun homicides at a rate nearly four times higher than adults 21 and older.

 

 

Would age restriction this stop mass shootings? No, but I would still support it.

 

 

 

This is better.

 

How many of those crimes used a legally purchased gun?

 

How many used legal rifles, because most places already limit handgun purchases until 21?

 

 

[boyst]

24 minutes ago, Rockpile233 said:

 

Before anyone points to the bill of rights...yes I understand the right to drive a vehicle is not found there, BUT

 

I got my license at age 16....yet it was a conditional license (couldn’t drive past 9:00pm, etc.). Even if you don’t support a federal age minimum at 21, can’t we at least make some conditions to gun ownership at younger ages? Additionally wait times, proof of safety courses, etc? Something!? 

 

 

Nope. We have made enough conditions to gun ownership that haven't made a difference

 

I'm done sacrificing my rights to appease the pleb bitches who don't get freedom and the Constitution.

 

If the Second Amendment doesn't apply to today's gun than the freedom of speech doesn't apply to Facebook, TV, radio, cell phones...

 

I don't even own a gun and I would still defend the right to own one until I die.

[TakeYouToTasker]

2 minutes ago, Rockpile233 said:

FBI Supplementary Homicide report:

 

Persons aged 18-20 made up 4.24% of the US Population and were the primary offender in 17.16% of all gun homicides for which the age of the offender was known.

 

18-20 year olds commit gun homicides at a rate nearly four times higher than adults 21 and older.

 

 

Would age restriction this stop mass shootings? No, but I would still support it.

 

That's gang violence.

 

You know, the guys currently engaging in smuggling and criminal enterprises. 

 

 

[boyst]

5 minutes ago, Rockpile233 said:

FBI Supplementary Homicide report:

 

Persons aged 18-20 made up 4.24% of the US Population and were the primary offender in 17.16% of all gun homicides for which the age of the offender was known.

 

18-20 year olds commit gun homicides at a rate nearly four times higher than adults 21 and older.

 

 

Would age restriction this stop mass shootings? No, but I would still support it.

 

Look up the country that has the lowest homicide rate in the world. 

 

To the last of my memory it may surprise you. And that country makes it a law that you must own a gun.  

[Warren Zevon]

Should pedophiles be able to own guns?

[Tiberius]

5 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

Look up the country that has the lowest homicide rate in the world. 

 

To the last of my memory it may surprise you. And that country makes it a law that you must own a gun.  

Japan? They ban guns 

[Rockpile233]

6 minutes ago, Joe Miner said:

 

 

This is better.

 

How many of those crimes used a legally purchased gun?

 

How many used legal rifles, because most places already limit handgun purchases until 21?

 

 

 

I’m assuming very few of those were legal firearms, but the conversation was age vs. likelihood of gun violence, so I feel the correlation stands. 

 

If if we are trying to limit the cases of school shootings (I will grant I was too unfocused with mass shootings) I feel like limiting ownership at younger ages is a fair debate.

 

Increasing the drinking age led to fewer accidents involving drunk driving. But yes, that was not in the Bill of Rights.

6 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

Look up the country that has the lowest homicide rate in the world. 

 

To the last of my memory it may surprise you. And that country makes it a law that you must own a gun.  

Isn’t it one of the Scandanavian countries? 

[boyst]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

Japan? They ban guns 

Referencing Switzerland. 

 

Either way, a shithole like malawi has a lower murder rate than the US.  But, hey, does that matter?  Its awesome south shithole Africa.

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, Boyst62 said:

Referencing Switzerland. 

 

Either way, a shithole like malawi has a lower murder rate than the US.  But, hey, does that matter?  Its awesome south shithole Africa.

Singapore has a very low murder rate and bans guns

[Joe Miner]

13 minutes ago, Rockpile233 said:

 

I’m assuming very few of those were legal firearms, but the conversation was age vs. likelihood of gun violence, so I feel the correlation stands. 

 

If if we are trying to limit the cases of school shootings (I will grant I was too unfocused with mass shootings) I feel like limiting ownership at younger ages is a fair debate.

 

Increasing the drinking age led to fewer accidents involving drunk driving. But yes, that was not in the Bill of Rights.

 

 

The correlation doesn't stand.  You are supporting legislation to limit rights of people to legally purchase guns.

 

You are using data that has likely been skewed by people who did not go through the legal process to obtain their guns.  

 

So again, how does the legislation you're supporting actually prevent the crime we all detest?  Because so far all you're doing is limiting the rights of law abiding citizens because of the actions of criminals.  And in no way will this legislation hinder those who are already obtaining their guns illegally.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Joe Miner

[Warren Zevon]

16 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

Look up the country that has the lowest homicide rate in the world. 

 

To the last of my memory it may surprise you. And that country makes it a law that you must own a gun.  

 

That is incorrect.

 

Switzerland has mandatory military service for all men.

 

When their service is over they have the option to get a permit to buy their service weapon.

[IDBillzFan]

55 minutes ago, Rockpile233 said:

Umm Parkland?

 

Are you suggesting that if the age to buy a gun was raised to 21, the killer in Parkland would have just, y'know, waited a few years?

[ExiledInIllinois]

With all this 21 hooey... Why don't the raise the age of military service to 21.

 

It's either all 21 or nothing.

[boyst]

1 minute ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

With all this 21 hooey... Why don't the raise the age of military service to 21.

 

It's either all 21 or nothing.

I'm all for bringing the draft back