Why isn't anyone talking about Stevie?

[The Big Cat]

Excuses? Look, the guy is a decent WR who made himself a career in the NFL from a very low pick. The guy has worked hard to get here and no player on the Bills roster is without fault, according to fans... apparently have short term memory.

 

It's funny, 3 years ago people were talking about how terrible McKelvin was. Failing in the most crucial situations. Another failed first round draft pick... Now, he can do no wrong.

 

EDIT: to answer your questions, it's a little of all those things but has nothing to do with his immaturity. He should have done a better job protecting the ball and the defensive back made a great play.

 

I don't understand your reluctance to a.) acknowledge his blatant immaturity or b.) acknowledge its connection with his habit of making mistakes at the worst times possible.

 

You just responded to my point. You, the vindicated party, have taken your victory laps, and issued your "told ya so('s)". But there is no victory and there is no vindication. There are only "told ya so('s)".

 

So are you pissed that there's a victory lap to be had or that we're taking it? Fan in Chicago put it better than me, but I'm just as curious as to what your stake in this conversation is/has been.

[oman128]

I think its time to move Stevie, he's had 5 or 6 years now to prove himself, and he isn't an all star, he isnt a true #1, he average look at his stats for his career. Too many stupid mistakes and he acts a fool too much.

[Jauronimo]

I don't understand your reluctance to a.) acknowledge his blatant immaturity or b.) acknowledge its connection with his habit of making mistakes at the worst times possible.

 

 

 

So are you pissed that there's a victory lap to be had or that we're taking it? Fan in Chicago put it better than me, but I'm just as curious as to what your stake in this conversation is/has been.

There is absolutely no way in hell you can prove in any way shape or form a causal relationship between maturity, as you perceive it, and outcomes in clutch situations. You can argue all you'd like, but you can't prove it in any way. You can't quantify any sort of relationship. TO, Moss, Steve Smith, and a host of others had repeated issues with maturity and character. How did it effect their performances? Is this phenomenon unique only to SJ? Are all choke cases "immature"? What don't you understand about this? In what way have you been vindicated?

 

Furthermore, your "called it moment" was about as passive and vague as it could be:

He was in check last season but this transgression makes me wonder if he will once again cause a stupid penalty or drop a catch that costs us a game. I am not confident any more that he is mature enough to handle all game situations.

Bold call indeed and real strong language. Problem is he made the catch and didn't take any penalties. So are you taking this lap because you have in someway "proved" that it was maturity issues which caused the fumble in a key situation? Did you "prove" that which cannot be proven? SJ did catch a game winner against Carolina. How does that fit into your proof?

 

My stake is that you two are patting yourselves on the back over bull ****. Your opinions are fine, in fact they're perfectly cromulent. But then you went and spoiled it all. I would hope that you would do the same for me had I declared victory when my specious reasoning lined up with a certain outcome.

[JPS]

Applying that argument, why are Woods, Graham, Goodwin, Hogan, Chandler, Easely, and Gragg on the roster? Who cares what we do with them. Cut them all tomorrow.

Serious? Woods, Graham, Goodwin and Gragg are young WRs and I'd rather kick their tires before I trade them in.

 

Stevie has been weighed, measured and left wanting. Same with Easley and Chandler.

 

So what should be done with this Stevie Johnson?

Release him at the end of the season. My money is on that happening.

[Wayne Cubed]

 

There is absolutely no way in hell you can prove in any way shape or form a causal relationship between maturity, as you perceive it, and outcomes in clutch situations. You can argue all you'd like, but you can't prove it in any way. You can't quantify any sort of relationship. TO, Moss, Steve Smith, and a host of others had repeated issues with maturity and character. How did it effect their performances? Is this phenomenon unique only to SJ? Are all choke cases "immature"? What don't you understand about this? In what way have you been vindicated?

 

This pretty much sums up what I was thinking.

[The Big Cat]

There is absolutely no way in hell you can prove in any way shape or form a causal relationship between maturity, as you perceive it, and outcomes in clutch situations. You can argue all you'd like, but you can't prove it in any way. You can't quantify any sort of relationship. TO, Moss, Steve Smith, and a host of others had repeated issues with maturity and character. How did it effect their performances? Is this phenomenon unique only to SJ? Are all choke cases "immature"? What don't you understand about this? In what way have you been vindicated?

 

This pretty much sums up what I was thinking.

 

So how many more instances until you acknowledge the correlation?

[NoSaint]

Release him at the end of the season. My money is on that happening.

 

how much of your money is on that? given the cap hit, i wouldnt go betting the house that hes released.

[dave mcbride]

What about Chandler? To be honest, my heart stops EVERY TIME he's lumbering across the middle. I always feel like he's a fumble waiting to happen, especially the way he tries to stay on his feet.

I'm not a fan of Chandler and I started a whole thread a while back about the need to upgrade the TE position.

[peterpan]

Trade Stevie to the pats or broncos or packers and watch him catch 100 balls for 15 TDs and the bills fans who wanted him traded will be screaming that the bills are dumb for trading him. Same thing already happened for lynch.

 

How many stats do u want the guy to have when he has had bulbs AF qb his entire career?

 

He fumbled for the same reason chandler fumble - the bills are cursed loser franchise who will always find a way to lose.

[Jauronimo]

So how many more instances until you acknowledge the correlation?

You want me to acknowledge the correlation between drops and penalties (which now includes fumbles) in "clutch" or "key" situations and "maturity issues" as evidenced by clothing choices, jokes about rogue nations, and end zone celebrations?

 

Before we go through the painstaking and futile exercise of attempting to define the many variables at play here and quantify maturity issues, is there any reason whatsoever, to think that a relationship exists between the two? Seems like theres plenty of other anecdotal empirical evidence which contradicts your theory and supports the view point that character flaws and immaturity have no bearing on "clutch" play.

[NoSaint]

He fumbled for the same reason chandler fumble - the bills are cursed loser franchise who will always find a way to lose.

 

well atleast youve decided to take the practical route with your assessments.

[LB3]

 

Seems like theres plenty of other anecdotal empirical evidence which contradicts your theory and supports the view point that character flaws and immaturity have no bearing on "clutch" play.

 

Good point. Lawrence Taylor & Big Ben. Just two of the many examples of clutch players who were/are pieces of garbage off the field.

[The Big Cat]

You want me to acknowledge the correlation between drops and penalties (which now includes fumbles) in "clutch" or "key" situations and "maturity issues" as evidenced by clothing choices, jokes about rogue nations, and end zone celebrations?

 

Before we go through the painstaking and futile exercise of attempting to define the many variables at play here and quantify maturity issues, is there any reason whatsoever, to think that a relationship exists between the two? Seems like theres plenty of other anecdotal empirical evidence which contradicts your theory and supports the view point that character flaws and immaturity have no bearing on "clutch" play.

 

So you're suggesting there's one brand of character flaw and it does or doesn't impact players equally?

 

You're also suggesting maturity, mental toughness and leadership qualities have nothing to do with one another, nor do they have any bearing on performance?

[NoSaint]

 

 

So you're suggesting there's one brand of character flaw and it does or doesn't impact players equally?

 

You're also suggesting maturity, mental toughness and leadership qualities have nothing to do with one another, nor do they have any bearing on performance?

 

while i think in stevies case there are issues going hand in hand -- i think you may be overgeneralizing enough that you are leaving the door pretty wide open for his criticisms. if you scaled it back a little bit, i dont think youd see as much push back from him.

[The Big Cat]

while i think in stevies case there are issues going hand in hand -- i think you may be overgeneralizing enough that you are leaving the door pretty wide open for his criticisms. if you scaled it back a little bit, i dont think youd see as much push back from him.

 

I also think he's arguing just for the sake of arguing.

[YoloinOhio]

I do not think Stevie makes this team better as a #1 WR. As a #2/slot WR he would be fine. The run defense was as much to blame for this loss as Stevie.

[Leelee Phoenix]

how much of your money is on that? given the cap hit, i wouldnt go betting the house that hes released.

Stevie's an $8.5M hit and it's virtually all dead money, with similar cap hits the next 3 years.

 

I wouldn't bet on Stevie being cut, but it's possible. I'd rather they trade him, but I don't know if any teams would take that cap hit.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Leelee Phoenix

[Jauronimo]

So you're suggesting there's one brand of character flaw and it does or doesn't impact players equally?

 

You're also suggesting maturity, mental toughness and leadership qualities have nothing to do with one another, nor do they have any bearing on performance?

They might and probably do. But which mental qualities impact which nebulous terms like clutch? You can't even attempt to argue or prove that "immaturity" is causing a lack of "clutch" performance. Also, two things happening within a set time period does not constitute a relationship or even a correlation. Thus you have absolutely no ground on which to claim vindication.

 

I think at this point you're being dense just for the sake of being dense. But by all means, please proceed with your told ya so's and victory laps.

 

SJ also racked up a few 1,000 yard seasons while taking penalties for his antics. How can you ignore the correlation between 1,000 yard seasons and immaturity?

Edited December 2, 2013 by Jauronimo

[Fan in Chicago]

 

 

Furthermore, your "called it moment" was about as passive and vague as it could be:

 

Bold call indeed and real strong language. Problem is he made the catch and didn't take any penalties. So are you taking this lap because you have in someway "proved" that it was maturity issues which caused the fumble in a key situation? Did you "prove" that which cannot be proven? SJ did catch a game winner against Carolina. How does that fit into your proof?

 

My stake is that you two are patting yourselves on the back over bull ****. Your opinions are fine, in fact they're perfectly cromulent. But then you went and spoiled it all. I would hope that you would do the same for me had I declared victory when my specious reasoning lined up with a certain outcome.

 

Pat myself on the back ? Is that the crux of your complaint ? There are no victors in a situation when the Bills lose a game. Here is why I am regurgitating old conversations – in those earlier conversations, many on this board were discussing his picture with ‘USS FUHKMORE’ and his tweet regarding N Korea and Foxboro. What some of us were saying was that there is a disturbing pattern to Stevie’s behavior – drop against Steelers, his excessive celebration penalties, the above social media behavior etc. No one claimed any medical or psychological correlation between the on field and off field stuff.

But what I did wonder is if his general lack of immaturity causes him to either try too hard or lose concentration in key moments where he is subconsciously looking to create a big moment. In that instant of losing focus, he makes game altering mistakes.

To this opinion, there were several here that roundly derided that point of view and said things like ‘lighten up’ or ‘he is just a clown’ etc.

Me bringing up the old threads was meant to point out how a casual hand waving is not always the right thing to do. The Bills traded Lynch because his off-field behavior would some day cause a suspension or arrest which would hurt the Bills. Stevie, which never in trouble with the law, has displayed judgment and behavior which paints an overall poor picture of him. Guy who gets yards, gets open, yet will let you down in big moments.

If you see the above logic as my attempt to take a victory lap, then I am pretty sure you are not being objective about the situation. Are you just mad that Big Cat, Badol, me were right in being concerned ? You accuse us of patting ourselves on the back and taking victory laps, but you are just failing to acknowledge that, UNFORTUNATELY, the concerns we expressed with his behavior has come true and affected the outcome on at least three games now.

 

That is about as much defense I can provide my point of view. I am being civil about this discussion and would encourage you to respond in kind.

[Jauronimo]

No matter how many times you and Big Cat repeat your positions, there just isn't any reason to think that "clutch" can be explained by "maturity". None. He could never catch a pass again and drop everything thrown his way and your USS Fukhmore argument still won't hold any water.

 

You may as well say that the temperature drops in fall and winter because of NFL football. When the season starts, temps drop rapidly. Every year. Like clockwork. Look at the correlation (in this instance there actually is a proven correlation). There's still no demonstrable relationship between the two.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Jauronimo