Why isn't anyone talking about Stevie?

[Fan in Chicago]

No matter how many times you and Big Cat repeat your positions, there just isn't any reason to think that "clutch" can be explained by "maturity". None. He could never catch a pass again and drop everything thrown his way and your USS Fukhmore argument still won't hold any water.

 

You may as well say that the temperature drops in fall and winter because of NFL football. When the season starts, temps drop rapidly. Every year. Like clockwork. Look at the correlation (in this instance there actually is a proven correlation). There's still no demonstrable relationship between the two.

 

I am done debating with you.

[The Big Cat]

They might and probably do. But which mental qualities impact which nebulous terms like clutch? You can't even attempt to argue or prove that "immaturity" is causing a lack of "clutch" performance. Also, two things happening within a set time period does not constitute a relationship or even a correlation. Thus you have absolutely no ground on which to claim vindication.

 

I think at this point you're being dense just for the sake of being dense. But by all means, please proceed with your told ya so's and victory laps.

 

SJ also racked up a few 1,000 yard seasons while taking penalties for his antics. How can you ignore the correlation between 1,000 yard seasons and immaturity?

 

I went into great detail in threads several months ago. And I'm happy to again.

 

I'll use last night's press conference and the press conference/God Tweets following the Pittsburgh drop to illustrate my point...again:

 

Pittsburgh drop: Stevie takes the podium and appears to be forcing tears. His comments are all about a "young kid coming up having a chance to make a great play." Nothing about how he let the team down, nothing about the consequences to the team, only how his drop impacted this nice little narrative he'd concocted about himself.

 

Then, of course, he did the perfectly rational/mature thing: tweeted/blamed god for all the world to see. Again, no ownership of the mistake, just immature, childlike lashing out at anything but himself. For people like Chicago Fan and me, this raised a flag. As I mentioned already in this thread, you solve problems by identifying them. His inability to catch the ball was the problem. Yet, what Stevie chose to highlight was the disruption of his own narrative and that a supernatural, omniscient creature suddenly opted to deny Stevie the magical intervention he thought he deserved.

 

For people like Chicago Fan and me, this was indicative of a poor attitude for a professional athlete to have, especially considering the nature of the drop. It wasn't a physical mistake. It was a mental one. Perfectly thrown, uncontested pass, and he just biffed it. If he was run down from behind and stopped at the two yard line, we'd say he needs to get faster by running more wind sprints. This, however, was a mental mistake, one that could be corrected by working on improving mental toughness. His post game actions not only indicated that he had a long way to go in fixing that problem, but that he's not even on track to begin the process.

 

Fast forward three years and fails to make a mentally tough play again. In that situation YOU HAVE TO PROTECT THE FOOTBALL. He didn't. He didn't go down, he didn't secure it with both hands. Mental mistakes, given the circumstances. And again what didn't we hear during his post game press conference? Ownership. None.

 

So, the deficiency remains, and he demonstrates to the media and to the fans zero interest in improving.

 

MEANWHILE, he's a jokester on and off the field. He plans touch down celebrations, he acts like a clown on Twitter yadda yadda. This tells people like Chicago Fan and me that he's not completely incapable of focusing on something. But unfortunately, to our concern then, and before our eyes last night, that something doesn't appear to be the type of preparation and wherewithal needed to win football games. There are plenty of funny people on Twitter, most of them much, much funnier than Stevie. I really only care about his ability to win football games for the Buffalo Bills, and more often than not, he's incapable of doing that.

[Jauronimo]

I am done debating with you.

There was never any debate.

[KOKBILLS]

Stevie's an $8.5M hit and it's virtually all dead money, with similar cap hits the next 3 years.

 

I wouldn't bet on Stevie being cut, but it's possible. I'd rather they trade him, but I don't know if any teams would take that cap hit.

 

At his salary the Bills wont get squat for him in return...Stevie is all but on this team through 2014 at the very least...I think that's an easy assumption...

 

But who knows? It really comes down to how much Hackett and Marrone like the guy...I still believe he can be a good piece of a quality Offense...We'll see...

[NoSaint]

No matter how many times you and Big Cat repeat your positions, there just isn't any reason to think that "clutch" can be explained by "maturity". None. He could never catch a pass again and drop everything thrown his way and your USS Fukhmore argument still won't hold any water.

 

You may as well say that the temperature drops in fall and winter because of NFL football. When the season starts, temps drop rapidly. Every year. Like clockwork. Look at the correlation (in this instance there actually is a proven correlation). There's still no demonstrable relationship between the two.

 

i think you could probably follow some sort of logic that with maturity often comes traits that are related to success at higher level/higher pressure situations.... i wont say that its been expertly made here, but on the surface id suspect correlation.

[The Big Cat]

i think you could probably follow some sort of logic that with maturity often comes traits that are related to success at higher level/higher pressure situations.... i wont say that its been expertly made here, but on the surface id suspect correlation.

 

'Expertly made?' I mean, I could have my wife throw some hoity toity sports psychology terminology at us all, but I'm just expressing what I see--as a fan, as an adult, as a former athlete.

[Jauronimo]

I went into great detail in threads several months ago. And I'm happy to again.

 

I'll use last night's press conference and the press conference/God Tweets following the Pittsburgh drop to illustrate my point...again:

 

Pittsburgh drop: Stevie takes the podium and appears to be forcing tears. His comments are all about a "young kid coming up having a chance to make a great play." Nothing about how he let the team down, nothing about the consequences to the team, only how his drop impacted this nice little narrative he'd concocted about himself.

 

Then, of course, he did the perfectly rational/mature thing: tweeted/blamed god for all the world to see. Again, no ownership of the mistake, just immature, childlike lashing out at anything but himself. For people like Chicago Fan and me, this raised a flag. As I mentioned already in this thread, you solve problems by identifying them. His inability to catch the ball was the problem. Yet, what Stevie chose to highlight was the disruption of his own narrative and that a supernatural, omniscient creature suddenly opted to deny Stevie the magical intervention he thought he deserved.

 

For people like Chicago Fan and me, this was indicative of a poor attitude for a professional athlete to have, especially considering the nature of the drop. It wasn't a physical mistake. It was a mental one. Perfectly thrown, uncontested pass, and he just biffed it. If he was run down from behind and stopped at the two yard line, we'd say he needs to get faster by running more wind sprints. This, however, was a mental mistake, one that could be corrected by working on improving mental toughness. His post game actions not only indicated that he had a long way to go in fixing that problem, but that he's not even on track to begin the process.

 

Fast forward three years and fails to make a mentally tough play again. In that situation YOU HAVE TO PROTECT THE FOOTBALL. He didn't. He didn't go down, he didn't secure it with both hands. Mental mistakes, given the circumstances. And again what didn't we hear during his post game press conference? Ownership. None.

 

So, the deficiency remains, and he demonstrates to the media and to the fans zero interest in improving.

 

MEANWHILE, he's a jokester on and off the field. He plans touch down celebrations, he acts like a clown on Twitter yadda yadda. This tells people like Chicago Fan and me that he's not completely incapable of focusing on something. But unfortunately, to our concern then, and before our eyes last night, that something doesn't appear to be the type of preparation and wherewithal needed to win football games. There are plenty of funny people on Twitter, most of them much, much funnier than Stevie. I really only care about his ability to win football games for the Buffalo Bills, and more often than not, he's incapable of doing that.

Yes all of those things did indeed happen. But did the events that transpired on the field happen BECAUSE of "immaturity" which now I see has expanded to include "mental toughness"? Good luck proving such a relationship between outcomes and intangibles. You're getting pretty circular with your terms as well, seeing as we often define mental toughness as coming through in key situations.

 

Meanwhile plenty of other thin skinned, basket cases with elementary level maturity make plays when it matters most. Still waiting for Tiger to accept responsibility for his actions. Still waiting on him to behave like an adult on the course. A tweet and a shirt and an end zone celebration are not predictive of how someone will perform when it matters. Go read through Johnny Football's twitter feed. See Randy Moss and TO's end zone celebrations. Patrick Kane makes a real nice case for maturity and game winning, cup clinching goals. Mickleson is a great guy, very mature and a renowned choke artist. Clearly, "clutch" is pretty hard to explain. Immaturity doesn't look like a predictive variable when we expand the scope.

 

SJ could drop every pass thrown his way until he is booted out to the league making your concerns look truly prescient, but you still won't be right. And if you can't be right or wrong on this issue, victory laps are unwise lest you appear like someone with a tenuous grasp on logic and causality.

[reddogblitz]

At his salary the Bills wont get squat for him in return...Stevie is all but on this team through 2014 at the very least...I think that's an easy assumption...

 

It really comes down to how much Hackett and Marrone like the guy...

 

SJ has already cost Marrone and Hackett one game and a remotely possible playoff berth. How much more will they risk? SJ does the same next year and Marrone and Hackett are on a very hot seat. SJ's a Jauron/Gailey guy, not a Marrone guy. I'm thinking Marrone's loyalty to SJ is sketchy at best at this point.

 

So we take an 8 mil cap hit. We're 20 mil UNDER the cap right now.

[Jauronimo]

i think you could probably follow some sort of logic that with maturity often comes traits that are related to success at higher level/higher pressure situations.... i wont say that its been expertly made here, but on the surface id suspect correlation.

You can't demonstrate correlation between nebulous terms like maturity, leadership and mental toughness and other extremely subjective concepts like "clutch performance". You could try, but its not a worthy endeavor. And even if there is a correlation after a horribly contrived exercise like what we're discussing we still can't prove a relationship.

 

Can we just accept what should have been obvious pages ago, that there will be no vindication on this topic? The only people who were wrong about SJ's maturity and performance on the field were those claiming to be right.

[The Big Cat]

Yes all of those things did indeed happen. But did the events that transpired on the field happen BECAUSE of "immaturity" which now I see has expanded to include "mental toughness"? Good luck proving such a relationship between outcomes and intangibles. You're getting pretty circular with your terms as well, seeing as we often define mental toughness as coming through in key situations.

 

Meanwhile plenty of other thin skinned, basket cases with elementary level maturity make plays when it matters most. Still waiting for Tiger to accept responsibility for his actions. Still waiting on him to behave like an adult on the course. A tweet and a shirt and an end zone celebration are not predictive of how someone will perform when it matters. Go read through Johnny Football's twitter feed. See Randy Moss and TO's end zone celebrations. Patrick Kane makes a real nice case for maturity and game winning, cup clinching goals. Mickleson is a great guy, very mature and a renowned choke artist. Clearly, "clutch" is pretty hard to explain. Immaturity doesn't look like a predictive variable when we expand the scope.

 

SJ could drop every pass thrown his way until he is booted out to the league making your concerns look truly prescient, but you still won't be right. And if you can't be right or wrong on this issue, victory laps are unwise lest you appear like someone with a tenuous grasp on logic and causality.

 

I'm done now too. I submit. Stevie is clearly of sound mind and spirit. His mistakes and blunders are in no way related. He has a super attitude and he's the kind of guy we want leading our team. I was foolish for questioning any of these things.

[NoSaint]

 

 

'Expertly made?' I mean, I could have my wife throw some hoity toity sports psychology terminology at us all, but I'm just expressing what I see--as a fan, as an adult, as a former athlete.

 

dont take offense - i was essentially saying that you made it as a message board poster not a researcher. are there cracks in your statements that can be jumped on, sure... but i think if you take in as conversational and broad strokes assertions, its not crazy to link maturity atleast to some degree to being a reliable performer... that said things like maturity and being clutch are tough to really define or measure.

[Jauronimo]

I'm done now too. I submit. Stevie is clearly of sound mind and spirit. His mistakes and blunders are in no way related. He has a super attitude and he's the kind of guy we want leading our team. I was foolish for questioning any of these things.

No. You were foolish to assert a relationship between maturity and performance in clutch situations. You were even more foolish to suggest that what transpired on the field was vindication that maturity is predictive of performance in key situations.

 

You were correct to be concerned about SJ coming up short when it matters most. He had already failed a few times when tested. Thats enough reason to be concerned with his play in the clutch. Theres no better predictor of how a player will perform when it matters most than their previous history. Trying to explain why he comes up short is very difficult. Proving it to any degree is nigh impossible.

[The Big Cat]

dont take offense - i was essentially saying that you made it as a message board poster not a researcher. are there cracks in your statements that can be jumped on, sure... but i think if you take in as conversational and broad strokes assertions, its not crazy to link maturity atleast to some degree to being a reliable performer... that said things like maturity and being clutch are tough to really define or measure.

 

No offense taken. You're just setting a mean standards expectation with all your 'expert' talk!

 

And of course they're tough to define. But as fans, we have a pretty substantial body of evidence to pick through and make assumptions about. It's not like we're pulling these observations out of thin air, here.

 

No. You were foolish to assert a relationship between maturity and performance in clutch situations. You were even more foolish to suggest that what transpired on the field was vindication that maturity is predictive of performance in key situations.

 

You were correct to be concerned about SJ coming up short when it matters most. He had already failed a few times when tested. Thats enough reason to be concerned with his play in the clutch. Theres no better predictor of how a player will perform when it matters most than their previous history. Trying to explain why he comes up short is very difficult. Proving it to any degree is nigh impossible.

 

Foolish. Got it. Nothing but the empirical here on this message board. How foolish.

[Jauronimo]

No offense taken. You're just setting a mean standards expectation with all your 'expert' talk!

 

And of course they're tough to define. But as fans, we have a pretty substantial body of evidence to pick through and make assumptions about. It's not like we're pulling these observations out of thin air, here.

 

Foolish. Got it. Nothing but the empirical here on this message board. How foolish.

You are, however, pulling relationships out of thin air.

[The Big Cat]

You are, however, pulling relationships out of thin air.

 

I'm what the drones call a 'human.' I observe things and interpret them.

[JPS]

how much of your money is on that? given the cap hit, i wouldnt go betting the house that hes released.

Well, it is a "dead money" cap hit of about $8.5M if they cut him….that's the NFL accounting penalty that would be assessed the Bills for handing out such a stupid contract. And I guess it makes it less likely, but the Bills would save $14.5M in ACTUAL money if they let him go. I wouldn't rule it out. If not this year, then maybe next. No way he sees the end of that contract. I guess it depends what impression he's made on Whaley and Marrone.

[The Big Cat]

Well, it is a "dead money" cap hit of about $8.5M if they cut him….that's the NFL accounting penalty that would be assessed the Bills for handing out such a stupid contract. And I guess it makes it less likely, but the Bills would save $14.5M in ACTUAL money if they let him go. I wouldn't rule it out. If not this year, then maybe next. No way he sees the end of that contract. I guess it depends what impression he's made on Whaley and Marrone.

 

Surely I'm not the only here who thinking about the 'long' talk him and Marrone had...

[JPS]

Surely I'm not the only here who thinking about the 'long' talk him and Marrone had...

I'm unfamiliar Cat. When was that?

 

The thing that sucks is the penalty hits whether he is cut or traded. So at least some dead money is coming from #13.

[The Big Cat]

I'm unfamiliar Cat. When was that?

 

The thing that sucks is the penalty hits whether he is cut or traded. So at least some dead money is coming from #13.

 

During bye week:

 

http://blogs.buffalobills.com/2013/11/25/marrone-had-long-talk-with-stevie/

[JPS]

During bye week:

 

http://blogs.buffalo...lk-with-stevie/

Ah…thanks. I hope he wasn't trying to coddle Stevie. I assume his talk with him this week would be different. Hopefully more Parcells-like. Catch the ball, hold the ball or your gone.