Hackett on CJ Spiller's Role in the Offense

[Nanker]

 

 

Oh I see, so he will fall apart over an additional 8 games. And you have what evidence for this?

Arithmetic challenged?

Look it up. There are incredibly few RBs that have averaged 20 carries a game over their career.

[microscopes]

You seem to enjoy arguing with people. Why? It's not fun to do, nor is it fun to read. Is there another site where this is the norm? It's typically not, here.

 

What? Is that not how a message board works. Someone says something, someone else responds and so forth? I disagree with his opinion. It's called discourse.

[bigK14094]

On your top ten RB's are you all just listing the best runners or the overall best running backs? What can't Fred Jackson do? His blocking is well above average. His ability to catch and get open down field is clear. His YAC is impressive despite the many short dumps he gets. His running is powerful and he can run the ball anywhere between the sidelines. Overall FJ is still a top 10 back. He may not have 1000 rushing yards to show it but he has shown it in his play

Fred a step slower than a few years ago...just saying..time catches up with everybody

[microscopes]

Arithmetic challenged?

Look it up. There are incredibly few RBs that have averaged 20 carries a game over their career.

 

Certainly. But you allege that he won't last the season. Not a career. But for the record, the top 5 RB's in the league last season all had 20+ carries a game.

[Kellyto83TD]

There is no Credence, Chan was an idiot and his views = a losing record every year he was HC.

 

If CJ gets paid as a starter and has his talent... you get his ass on the field every chance you can....but you be smart about it.

 

I say he needs 20 'Touches' per game. 15 runs, and about 5-8 reception attempts. He is WAY too good not to give him that many touches.

 

For those stupid enough (yeah I said STUPID) to say he needs to RUN the ball 20+ times per game Thurman Thomas played in 182 games with a total of 15.8 rushing attempts per game and about 3 recpeptions per game so 18 touches for his career per say.

 

http://www.pro-footb.../T/ThomTh00.htm

 

CJ is faster than Thurman ever was and I will say more explosive overall. So if you can get him say 13-15 rushing attempts and try to get him 5 or so passes, the kid can be a HUGE difference maker for us.

 

But 20 + carries per game... This aint madden folks!

Edited August 7, 2013 by Kellyto83TD

[boyst]

Fred has an ability to compensate and surprise people. Many doubted him from the start and he still proves us wrong. He does not have to run at 4.2 40 speed or be able to blow up defenders. He has to move the ball 10 yards. If he ends up with less the 800 all purpose yards I will be shocked - in at least 12 games. I expect him to rush for over 100 yards at least once, too. It is not because web have to - keep CJ from carrying every play. But it is because we can. We can use Fred Jackson to ease the load on Spiller when it will not matter.

 

This time of year the Jackson haters come out of the woodwork like crazy. With their wealth of knowledge in 500 posts they explain so much. Spiller cannot run 100 yards on every play and it is about every 4 touches he only gets 1 yard. Late in the game, early in the game, or any time in between there is no reason we cannot expect a contribution from Fred Jackson.

 

Anyone thinking we can ride Spiller to the sunset need look at Chris Johnson and Tennnessee

[NoSaint]

 

Arithmetic challenged?

Look it up. There are incredibly few RBs that have averaged 20 carries a game over their career.

 

20 a game is about the MAX you would ever want. I have posted it many a time but once you break into that 350-375+ touches range players start to absolutely fall apart often taking a full year to recover. (20 a game for a season is 320)

 

Fred has an ability to compensate and surprise people. Many doubted him from the start and he still proves us wrong. He does not have to run at 4.2 40 speed or be able to blow up defenders. He has to move the ball 10 yards. If he ends up with less the 800 all purpose yards I will be shocked - in at least 12 games. I expect him to rush for over 100 yards at least once, too. It is not because web have to - keep CJ from carrying every play. But it is because we can. We can use Fred Jackson to ease the load on Spiller when it will not matter.

 

This time of year the Jackson haters come out of the woodwork like crazy. With their wealth of knowledge in 500 posts they explain so much. Spiller cannot run 100 yards on every play and it is about every 4 touches he only gets 1 yard. Late in the game, early in the game, or any time in between there is no reason we cannot expect a contribution from Fred Jackson.

 

Anyone thinking we can ride Spiller to the sunset need look at Chris Johnson and Tennnessee

 

freds a good back but hes not top 10 in the league. thats not being a hater at all. hes a good, well rounded, reliable, but not elite. i consider that description a compliment not bashing.

[Gugny]

What? Is that not how a message board works. Someone says something, someone else responds and so forth? I disagree with his opinion. It's called discourse.

Yes. Yes, I'm aware of how a message board works, as well as being aware that it's called discourse. Certainly, however, you can acknowledge the difference between a civil conversation and a conversation in which one participant uses condescending phrases and general douchebaggery. Of course, I'm not accusing anyone of any of this. I'm simply pointing out the difference.

[mrags]

 

 

20 a game is about the MAX you would ever want. I have posted it many a time but once you break into that 350-375+ touches range players start to absolutely fall apart often taking a full year to recover. (20 a game for a season is 320)

 

 

 

freds a good back but hes not top 10 in the league. thats not being a hater at all. hes a good, well rounded, reliable, but not elite. i consider that description a compliment not bashing.

im with you on this one. Said perfectly.

 

I'm not a FJ hater. I live the guy. But It's past his time to be the #1 regardless if we had CJ or not. He just can't handle that burden. CJ on the other hand is in his prime and ready to shoulder the load. Does that mean I think we should rush him 300+ times a season? Probably not. But I will say that I expect him to be out there, giving us our best chance to score on as many plays as he can handle. If that's 15 touches a game, or if he can handle more. He will be the one to let us know with his play if its too much.

 

In the meantime, I love that Freddie is our backup RB. Nobody better suited for the job than him IMO. He's getting up there in injuries and years and the limited number of carries should keep him fiery and fresh all season.

[yungmack]

With the O-line seemingly a bit unsettled, a bunch of rookie receivers sure to start, & the QBs being a fragile new-to-the Bills retread & 2 rookies, I would not be surprised if our RBs see a whole lot of blocking work plus loads of screens.

 

[thurst44]

What people might be missing here: just b/c CJ is getting a lot of carries, does not mean that FJ will be forgotten. I agree that CJ should clearly be the featured back, and get more touches than last year (and I hated the awkward "let's put one, then the other, in on various drives"), hopefully Freddie will still be on the field at least 50% of the time, either blocking, or making it so that teams can't focus on CJ. One of the reasons I feel Spiller is poised to have a historic season, is that he has Freddie backing him up/blocking for him/adding a counterbalance.

[microscopes]

Fred has an ability to compensate and surprise people. Many doubted him from the start and he still proves us wrong. He does not have to run at 4.2 40 speed or be able to blow up defenders. He has to move the ball 10 yards. If he ends up with less the 800 all purpose yards I will be shocked - in at least 12 games. I expect him to rush for over 100 yards at least once, too. It is not because web have to - keep CJ from carrying every play. But it is because we can. We can use Fred Jackson to ease the load on Spiller when it will not matter.

 

This time of year the Jackson haters come out of the woodwork like crazy. With their wealth of knowledge in 500 posts they explain so much. Spiller cannot run 100 yards on every play and it is about every 4 touches he only gets 1 yard. Late in the game, early in the game, or any time in between there is no reason we cannot expect a contribution from Fred Jackson.

 

Anyone thinking we can ride Spiller to the sunset need look at Chris Johnson and Tennnessee

 

First, Spiller is not Chris Johnson.

 

Second, Chris Johnson has never had a season under 1400 yards or 4 yards per carry so i'm not sure why youre using him as an example of what you don't want to do.

 

Chris Johnson:

 

2012: 1,475 yards

2011: 1,465 yards

2010: 1,609 yards

2009: 2.509 yards

2008: 1,488 yards

 

Sure looks like they're riding him into the sunset....

Edited August 7, 2013 by AvengedSevenfold

[NoSaint]

 

 

First, Spiller is not Chris Johnson.

 

Second, Chris Johnson has never had a season under 1400 yards or 4 yards per carry so i'm not sure why youre using him as an example of what you don't want to do.

 

Chris Johnson:

 

2012: 1,475 yards

2011: 1,465 yards

2010: 1,609 yards

2009: 2.509 yards

2008: 1,488 yards

 

Sure looks like they're riding him into the sunset....

 

Just an FYI - always appreciated to note it when using all purpose yards instead of rushing yards.... Especially in a sentence with yards per carry referenced.

[Dorkington]

2011, Fred Jackson lead the league in YPC among RBs. 2012, he dropped off big time, probably due to injuries.

 

One thing to note, though. CJ and Jackson both benefited from Chan's play calling, there was a lot of open space for them to run in, most of the time. We'll see how Hackett handles the offense this year.

 

Yds from scrimmage per game in 2011, Jackson finished second in the league:

 

http://www.footballdb.com/stats.html?mode=Y&yr=2011&lg=NFL&sort=totgame

 

2012, CJ finished 6th (5th among RBs):

 

http://www.footballdb.com/stats.html?mode=Y&yr=2012&lg=NFL&sort=totgame

 

We're in pretty good hands.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Dorkington

[microscopes]

Just an FYI - always appreciated to note it when using all purpose yards instead of rushing yards.... Especially in a sentence with yards per carry referenced.

 

I see running yards and receiving yards equally as important, but you're right I'll add a footnote.

[boyst]

 

 

First, Spiller is not Chris Johnson.

 

Second, Chris Johnson has never had a season under 1400 yards or 4 yards per carry so i'm not sure why youre using him as an example of what you don't want to do.

 

Chris Johnson:

 

2012: 1,475 yards

2011: 1,465 yards

2010: 1,609 yards

2009: 2.509 yards

2008: 1,488 yards

 

Sure looks like they're riding him into the sunset....

those titans sure have been a power house too. Those beatings they give everyone in the AFC championship game. No one comes close to doing what the Titans do in the playoffs.

 

Teams like Indy, new England, Denver, Atlanta, San Fransisco... they won't ever win until they run the ball!

 

How long until we get the trade Fred Jackson posts?

[Gugny]

 

2012: 1,475 yards - 13 wins

2011: 1,465 yards - 8 wins

2010: 1,609 yards - 6 wins

2009: 2.509 yards - 9 wins

2008: 1,488 yards - 6 wins

 

Sure looks like they're not winning many games while riding him into the sunset....

 

Fixed.

[mrags]

those titans sure have been a power house too. Those beatings they give everyone in the AFC championship game. No one comes close to doing what the Titans do in the playoffs.

 

Teams like Indy, new England, Denver, Atlanta, San Fransisco... they won't ever win until they run the ball!

 

How long until we get the trade Fred Jackson posts?

yiu won't hear it from me bud. Love him here. Just hope people realize he's not Fred Jackson of 2010-11 anymore.

[microscopes]

those titans sure have been a power house too. Those beatings they give everyone in the AFC championship game. No one comes close to doing what the Titans do in the playoffs.

 

Teams like Indy, new England, Denver, Atlanta, San Fransisco... they won't ever win until they run the ball!

 

How long until we get the trade Fred Jackson posts?

 

I didn't bring up Chris Johnson. YOU did. I was just showing you your faulty comparison.

 

Secondly, Tennessee is not losing because Chris Johnson is putting up close to 1,500 yards a season. They're losing because they don't have a QB and their defense has been suspect at times.

Edited August 7, 2013 by AvengedSevenfold

[boyst]

yiu won't hear it from me bud. Love him here. Just hope people realize he's not Fred Jackson of 2010-11 anymore.

and that year he was top 3 in the league and an MVP candidate

[microscopes]

Fixed.

 

Tennessee is not losing because Chris Johnson is putting up close to 1,500 yards a season. They're losing because they don't have a QB and their defense has been suspect at times.

 

Teams dont lose because star players get lots of yards.

 

and that year he was top 3 in the league and an MVP candidate

 

You have a serious Freddie obsession.

Edited August 7, 2013 by AvengedSevenfold

[Gugny]

yiu won't hear it from me bud. Love him here. Just hope people realize he's not Fred Jackson of 2010-11 anymore.

I was among the "don't give Fred more money" crowd before he got his raise. I still think it was a bad idea ... however ... I'm not upset that he's on the team. If someone could bottle guts/determination/dedication, Fred Jackson would be the main ingredient.

 

I hope he can stay healthy and I hope Hackett has a way to use both FJ and CJ effectively without burning either out.

 

Tennessee is not losing because Chris Johnson is putting up close to 1,500 yards a season. They're losing because they don't have a QB and their defense has been suspect at times.

 

Teams dont lose because star players get lots of yards.

 

 

Nor do teams win because star players get lots of yards.

[microscopes]

 

Nor do teams win because star players get lots of yards.

 

Well, actually, they do. More yards = more first downs = more points. As long as you have a decent QB and decent defense that is a recipe for winning.

 

Of the top 11 rushing teams last season, 8 of the 11 made then playoffs last season. One of them won the Superbowl. Another one was the opposing team in the SB. That says something.

[K-9]

This is great to hear. Would drive me nuts to see Spiller and his OLine CLEARLY establishing a rhythm, especially early in games, only to see him yanked. When an RB and his line start to see things in games against certain opponents and start "gaming" certain guys on defense, it's fun to watch. Gailey didn't seem to understand this very much.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[mrags]

and that year he was top 3 in the league and an MVP candidate

i get that. But he's 2 years older now. He was 30 then. He's also had 3-4 injuries over the past 3 years that have kept him out of quite a few games or ended his season early.

 

I'm not saying the guy isn't good. Just that we need to keep him fresh and not running the ball 15+ times a game. That and even in his wildest dreams he won't be as good as CJ. CJ is the future. And the future is now.

[C.Biscuit97]

 

AP

CJ

CJ2k

Arian Foster

MJD

Gore

McFadden

Charles

Lynch

Rice

Steven Jackson

Morris

McCoy

Deangelo Williams

Demarco Murray

Ingram

 

 

More than 10 RBs that are all better than FJ. Just saying.

 

I'd take FJax over Murray, Williams, & Ingram and think Morris is a creation of RG3 & the Shanhan system but I get your point. IMO, FJax is the best backup rb in the NFL.

 

And the key here is touches, not carries. RBs who log a lot carries will have short carries. But when you catch the ball as a back, you're in space & take way less punishment. So the ideal situation is to give Spiller about 15 carries & 5 receptions. And 2 or 3 Spiller series to FJax's one.

[mrags]

 

 

I'd take FJax over Murray, Williams, & Ingram and think Morris is a creation of RG3 & the Shanhan system but I get your point. IMO, FJax is the best backup rb in the NFL.

 

And the key here is touches, not carries. RBs who log a lot carries will have short carries. But when you catch the ball as a back, you're in space & take way less punishment. So the ideal situation is to give Spiller about 15 carries & 5 receptions. And 2 or 3 Spiller series to FJax's one.

id take a little more Spiller (mostly catches from what you say 2-3) and a little less Freddy than the 1:3 ratio but yes, I agree.

 

I love FJ on this team and think he will be exactly the perfect backup RB in the league (short of the Carolina situation). But I still think some need to curb their thoughts that he's the back he was 2-3 years ago. Even if he can be situationally (which I believe he can) he still needs to give up touches for CJ. CJ is the future of this team and there is no reason why we shouldn't try and emulate what the Chargers did with LT, the Chiefs with Holmes.

[C.Biscuit97]

id take a little more Spiller (mostly catches from what you say 2-3) and a little less Freddy than the 1:3 ratio but yes, I agree.

 

I love FJ on this team and think he will be exactly the perfect backup RB in the league (short of the Carolina situation). But I still think some need to curb their thoughts that he's the back he was 2-3 years ago. Even if he can be situationally (which I believe he can) he still needs to give up touches for CJ. CJ is the future of this team and there is no reason why we shouldn't try and emulate what the Chargers did with LT, the Chiefs with Holmes.

 

Totally agree. But FJax certainly will play a role this season.

 

Also being down in Charlotte, the Carolina rb situation is so idiotic. They locked up 3 rbs at good money & have zero idea how to use them. The Panthers old GM was awful.

[microscopes]

I'd take FJax over Murray, Williams, & Ingram and think Morris is a creation of RG3 & the Shanhan system but I get your point. IMO, FJax is the best backup rb in the NFL.

 

And the key here is touches, not carries. RBs who log a lot carries will have short carries. But when you catch the ball as a back, you're in space & take way less punishment. So the ideal situation is to give Spiller about 15 carries & 5 receptions. And 2 or 3 Spiller series to FJax's one.

 

Alfred Morris is a very good RB. He is no creation.

[C.Biscuit97]

 

 

Alfred Morris is a very good RB. He is no creation.

 

Hard to tell. Shanhan is a monster at creating rbs. Plus when you have a threat like RG3, it opens up huge holes. IMO, what Jackson & Spiller have done the past few seasons is way more impressive. You have a Qb who doesn't really scramble & can't throw 10 yards & have 2 guys averaging 5+ ypc.

[Dorkington]

yiu won't hear it from me bud. Love him here. Just hope people realize he's not Fred Jackson of 2010-11 anymore.

 

I think it's reasonable to expect that he won't be the Fred Jackson of 2012 either, as long as he's healthy.

[Gugny]

Well, actually, they do. More yards = more first downs = more points. As long as you have a decent QB and decent defense that is a recipe for winning.

 

Of the top 11 rushing teams last season, 8 of the 11 made then playoffs last season. One of them won the Superbowl. Another one was the opposing team in the SB. That says something.

So the fact that you listed those gaudy yards from Chris Johnson ... and I listed the number of wins for each of those years ... and the number of wins was very low ... that tells you that teams with lots of rushing yards win a lot of games?

 

Or are you saying that teams with good QBs, good defenses AND running backs that rush for a lot of yards win a lot of games? Because that's not what you originally claimed.

[Dorkington]

 

So the fact that you listed those gaudy yards from Chris Johnson ... and I listed the number of wins for each of those years ... and the number of wins was very low ... that tells you that teams with lots of rushing yards win a lot of games?

 

Or are you saying that teams with good QBs, good defenses AND running backs that rush for a lot of yards win a lot of games? Because that's not what you originally claimed.

 

I think it's reasonable to argue that a good running game is essential to being successful in the league, as the most successful teams are usually well rounded.

[Gugny]

I think it's reasonable to argue that a good running game is essential to being successful in the league, as the most successful teams are usually well rounded.

I agree. But I think it's unreasonable to argue that a team with a high-yardage-yielding RB will win. It's a no brainer to say that a team with a good QB, defense and running game will win a lot of games.

 

I also think it's worth noting that the O-line is the reason for rushing success more often, than not.

 

Not taking anything away from CJ or FJ, but that line deserves a lot of credit.

[Malazan]

I don't think they necessarily mean he's going to get more carries, but they want him on the field more. You can't leave a linebacker on spiller which means it needs to be a corner or safety. If you put a safety on him then you don't have coverage deep. I think the point is that CJ being on the field creates mismatches and if he's on the field, he can make teams pay if they leave a linebacker on him and helps keep defense honest since he can run and catch.

[Dorkington]

 

I agree. But I think it's unreasonable to argue that a team with a high-yardage-yielding RB will win. It's a no brainer to say that a team with a good QB, defense and running game will win a lot of games.

 

I also think it's worth noting that the O-line is the reason for rushing success more often, than not.

 

Not taking anything away from CJ or FJ, but that line deserves a lot of credit.

 

It's probably unreasonable to assume victory based on one facet of a team, period.

[microscopes]

 

So the fact that you listed those gaudy yards from Chris Johnson ... and I listed the number of wins for each of those years ... and the number of wins was very low ... that tells you that teams with lots of rushing yards win a lot of games?

 

Or are you saying that teams with good QBs, good defenses AND running backs that rush for a lot of yards win a lot of games? Because that's not what you originally claimed.

 

Wow, you're having an incredibly hard time following this conversation. What I'm saying is that a good RB who gains lots of yards NEVER hurts an offense. And as long as his QB and defense isn't awful, you can ride that RB to the playoffs. Just like Minnesota did last season. If you have a RB who gains lots of yardage plus a good QB plus a good defense, you're going to win the Super Bowl. There is a difference between having all those and just not having a QB and Defense that are crappy.

 

Problem is Chris Johnson is Tennessee's only threat and their QB and Defense is crappy.

 

I'm not sure what you're not understanding.

 

I'm also not sure what your point is in general.

[NoSaint]

 

 

Wow, you're having an incredibly hard time following this conversation. What I'm saying is that a good RB who gains lots of yards NEVER hurts an offense. And as long as his QB and defense isn't awful, you can ride that RB to the playoffs. Just like Minnesota did last season. If you have a RB who gains lots of yardage plus a good QB plus a good defense, you're going to win the Super Bowl. There is a difference between having all those and just not having a QB and Defense that are crappy.

 

Problem is Chris Johnson is Tennessee's only threat and their QB and Defense is crappy.

 

I'm not sure what you're not understanding.

 

I'm also not sure what your point is in general.

 

true story - teams that are good at everything tend to win. teams that are bad also tend not to run, as they play from behind.

Edited August 7, 2013 by NoSaint

[Gugny]

Wow, you're having an incredibly hard time following this conversation. What I'm saying is that a good RB who gains lots of yards NEVER hurts an offense. And as long as his QB and defense isn't awful, you can ride that RB to the playoffs. Just like Minnesota did last season. If you have a RB who gains lots of yardage plus a good QB plus a good defense, you're going to win the Super Bowl. There is a difference between having all those and just not having a QB and Defense that are crappy.

 

Problem is Chris Johnson is Tennessee's only threat and their QB and Defense is crappy.

 

I'm not sure what you're not understanding.

 

I'm also not sure what your point is in general.

I assure you I'm having no difficulties following anything you're writing.

[microscopes]

 

 

true story - teams that are good at everything tend to win. teams that are bad also tend not to run, as they play from behind.

 

Absolutely.

 

And also it's silly to say Chris Johnson is the reason Tennessee loses. Or even that Tennessee is better off without him. Or even that a good running game doesn't help a team, no matter how poor the rest of the team is.