eball Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Why do people think Buddy is making the decisions here? Clearly, Marrone and Hackett have evaluated the offensive personnel and let Nix know they aren't interested in bringing back Jones and Nelson. While many around here find fault with that (particulary with respect to Nelson), it's not as if these are cost-saving moves. Both Jones and Nelson would have been "dirt cheap" so it's about football talent, and on that point I'm comfortable allowing Marrone a clean slate in determining how he wants to run his offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 With all the holes they had already, plus the new ones that have been created recently, I don't see how the Bills cannot be active in FA. They can't be planning on plugging all the holes simply from the draft. Though WR does seem like one they can fill in the draft this year if they so choose. I didn't say we wouldn't be active, just that we won't be landing big names this time around. We don't have the same financial flexibility and we have way too many holes to fill. We're getting rid of fringe talent, and probably hiring other fringe talent. Just seems odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Can I give it a whirl? When Marrone got hired he said "“We will soon will be looking at film of all players and taking an extensive look at their skill sets." We have to believe that Nix and the coaching staff talked about Nelson. Marrone is at the very least a very good offensive guy. If Marrone said he's just not a fit for what we are going to try to do then I've got to believe he knows what he's doing. Clearly it wasn't about money, decent chance it's a concern about the injury, but more likely Marrone just doesn't think Nelson can perform in his scheme. So let me try to understand... You actually think a Bills coach who does this work professionally and full-time knows more about NFL personnel than we TBD posters? Hmm. That's a difficult concept for me to digest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Why do people think Buddy is making the decisions here? Clearly, Marrone and Hackett have evaluated the offensive personnel and let Nix know they aren't interested in bringing back Jones and Nelson. While many around here find fault with that (particulary with respect to Nelson), it's not as if these are cost-saving moves. Both Jones and Nelson would have been "dirt cheap" so it's about football talent, and on that point I'm comfortable allowing Marrone a clean slate in determining how he wants to run his offense. Let's assume you are correct. What is the harm in tendering Nelson? Marrone's tenure (if you put this on him) to this very early point reminds me of Greggggg's start. You cannot just cut football players without someone to take their place. Creating additional holes does nothing positive for the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Let's assume you are correct. What is the harm in tendering Nelson? Marrone's tenure (if you put this on him) to this very early point reminds me of Greggggg's start. You cannot just cut football players without someone to take their place. Creating additional holes does nothing positive for the team. From a roster spot standpoint, let's assume Marrone thinks he won't fit or isn't healthy, well then that's a wasted roster spot. That's a spot that could be given to a rookie or FA to build with. If they bring in Nelson and he doesn't work out, they wasted the roster spot and time available to build with another player. Whethers thats what he's actually thinking, who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Let's assume you are correct. What is the harm in tendering Nelson? Marrone's tenure (if you put this on him) to this very early point reminds me of Greggggg's start. You cannot just cut football players without someone to take their place. Creating additional holes does nothing positive for the team. The "harm" would be done to the available cash left over to sign Byrd, Levitre and a big name FA (s) to be named later. What's the "harm" in valuing those things over a slow, tall UDFA with a busted knee? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 (edited) Except for small fact that QB is (or was) left handled so was not protecting blind side like most LTs. But do not let THIS fact prevent you from a ball licking. Nice use of insults. Really, take that sort of talk elsewhere. As for Peters, Pro Football Focus etc. all had him as the top tackle in 2011 based largely on his utter dominance in the run game and his ability to extend plays for Vick. (For example: https://www.profootb...ensive-tackles/ ; https://www.profootb...f-all-pro-team/ .)The Eagles' offense in 2011 was 3rd in rushing ypa, 2nd in rushing TDs, and 8th in yards overall despite having to start the terrible Vince Young three games. Peters was a first team all-pro (not pro bowler; all pro). This year, they were 21st in rushing TDs and 15th overall in offense. Edited February 25, 2013 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 The "harm" would be done to the available cash left over to sign Byrd, Levitre and a big name FA (s) to be named later. What's the "harm" in valuing those things over a slow, tall UDFA with a busted knee? Bills have cap space and they can create plenty more by cutting a couple of others. Nelson is a drop in the bucket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Linen Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Let's assume you are correct. What is the harm in tendering Nelson? Marrone's tenure (if you put this on him) to this very early point reminds me of Greggggg's start. You cannot just cut football players without someone to take their place. Creating additional holes does nothing positive for the team. We all understand what you are saying. I don't necessarily agree with not bringing him in or think there's harm in it. Clearly the coaching staff and FO either think his ACL is going to be a problem, he doesn't fit the scheme, or think he sucks. I think the time to be either more/less upset about Nelson will be when we see the training camp roster. I say this because obviously money wasn't an issue and like you said it's not like tendering him means we have to sign him to some huge long term contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 From a roster spot standpoint, let's assume Marrone thinks he won't fit or isn't healthy, well then that's a wasted roster spot. That's a spot that could be given to a rookie or FA to build with. If they bring in Nelson and he doesn't work out, they wasted the roster spot and time available to build with another player. Whethers thats what he's actually thinking, who knows. So, Nelson isn't as good as the 90th player the Bills will bring to TC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Bills have cap space and they can create plenty more by cutting a couple of others. Nelson is a drop in the bucket. And you also don't buy the regime's skepticism with his health/role in their new scheme? So, Nelson isn't as good as the 90th player the Bills will bring to TC? May be not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 And you also don't buy the regime's skepticism with his health/role in their new scheme? If you are skeptical of something and you're an NFL HC you should review it with your own two eyes on the field live. There is nothing gained from this move at this time. Two seasons, one where he appeared in 15 games but started only 3, nearly 100 catches, over 1,000 yards isn't something that will easily be replaced. And, if it is replaced with a FA signining or high draft pick I still feel that there would be a spot for Nelson to be used situationally as a 3rd or 4th receiver. More to the point that FA or high draft pick could have been used elsewhere on what would be IMO a more critical need. Keep creating holes and you have more holes to fill. And with that I've reached my quota in this thread. I can't say it any differently than I already have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Why do people think Buddy is making the decisions here? Clearly, Marrone and Hackett have evaluated the offensive personnel and let Nix know they aren't interested in bringing back Jones and Nelson. While many around here find fault with that (particulary with respect to Nelson), it's not as if these are cost-saving moves. Both Jones and Nelson would have been "dirt cheap" so it's about football talent, and on that point I'm comfortable allowing Marrone a clean slate in determining how he wants to run his offense. If that's true...then I'll agree... But I have to tell you...According to Marrone's own words, that's not the way the decisions have been made...He went to great lengths during his Combine interviews to claim his Staff was there to Coach what they were given, and that he had basically no input on the personnel decisions thusfar...Marrone also said that was his philosophy (Coach what they give you), and basically said that's what he told the Bills in his interview...Now...I'll grant you that could all be nonsense speak...But I think when you add it to the comments Brandon made about Buddy being absolutely still 100% in charge of the Football operation, AND the fact that Buddy is obviously the point man for the Football side so far (WGR interview, Combine interview, no Whaley interviews, etc...), it's easy to assume Buddy is still in charge...It may not be correct...But that is ABSOLUTELY the message the Bills want out there...They have been calculated in giving the appearance that Buddy is still 100% in charge...What the real truth is?...Well that's anyone's guess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homey D. Clown Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I don't see what all the commotion is, David Nelson was a high character guy with good work ethic, but when he was on the field, vanished for games at a time. He had a few very good games with some nice highlights, but in the end, that's simply not good enough to win in the NFL, plain and simple. If the new coaching staff fields mostly the same team as last year, do you really expect anything more than 7 wins? If you think a new starting QB puts this team in the playoffs, you are greatly mistaken. There is far more average talent on this roster than there is elite talent, so the coaching staff is making some changes. This really isn't news, its just business when a new coaching staff comes in. There won't be a lot of interest in his services, much like Donald Jones, and every other receiver this team has cut in that last few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 So, Nelson isn't as good as the 90th player the Bills will bring to TC? Maybe he isn't. That 90th player isn't also coming off an ACL injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 The "harm" would be done to the available cash left over to sign Byrd, Levitre and a big name FA (s) to be named later. What's the "harm" in valuing those things over a slow, tall UDFA with a busted knee? Just let me remind you...There are folks at OBD right now that valued Aaron Williams over Colin Kaepernick, TJ Graham over Russell Wilson, Marcell Dareus over about 5 Pro Bowlers, etc, etc, etc... I think your one line description of Nelson as slow, tall, UDFA with a busted knee is ridiculous...Come on...He's not slow...Never was...You do realize that Nelson's 40 times were in the mid 4.5's, including a 4.47 on wet grass in his Pro Day at Florida?...That's pretty darn fast for a 6-5 wide out...Is it not? Where the heck does all this slow talk come from? These armchair experts around here? I keep reading here that the kid is slow and I swear I wonder if any of you really even care about being right...Yes he was a UDFA...All that means is a ton of teams made mistakes Scouting him...Nelson was not used a ton in his 4 years in Florida...Players fall through the cracks every Draft...His production in 2 years is clear and obvious evidence Nelson should have been Drafted...And all reports are that the knee is fine and Nelson will be 100% for Camp 2013... There is no way I'm going to give The Bills FO the benefit of any doubt any longer...On top of Nelson's obvious skills in his role, he's a good kid, and by all accounts a tireless worker...He is the exact-type player that every Championship Roster needs...A receiver who gets open on 3rd Down, in the Red Zone, and who is not going to break the bank...Even at the 2nd Round tender salary Nelson would make 1/3 of what the Bills pay Kelsay...The Bills had two years of Nelson on the ultra-cheap, and instead of giving the kid the minimum tender, which is easily affordable based on what a healthy David Nelson gives you, they decide to create yet another hole on a Swiss cheese Roster at a position (WR) of zero depth...The is the exact type move that has this team lingering where they are today...They continuously make poor evaluations of talent both on the team, and in the Draft...And by the time they realize their mistakes it's usually too late...Last point about the tender...No way that minimum tender stands in the way of bringing back Byrd, or Levitre...It's not enough cash...Not even at the 2nd round tender amount... I think a healthy David Nelson will shortly prove to the Bills this was a mistake...But we'll see...I could be wrong, and the knee may never be the same...I realize the kid is not Megatron, or AJ Green...But, again assuming he's healthy, I think he goes somewhere and contributes in a big way from day #1... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 You know, as fans we make these determinations based on an extremely limited knowledge-set. Has anyone considered the possibility that nobody liked the guy? I pulled that cheesy stunt in Dallas, he's always tweeting about #Jesus, may be he's an annoying rube. I figured, while we're speculating based on every other possibility under the sun, might as well throw this one in too. Just let me remind you...There are folks at OBD right now that valued Aaron Williams over Colin Kaepernick, TJ Graham over Russell Wilson, Marcell Dareus over about 5 Pro Bowlers, etc, etc, etc... I think your one line description of Nelson as slow, tall, UDFA with a busted knee is ridiculous...Come on...He's not slow...Never was...You do realize that Nelson's 40 times were in the mid 4.5's, including a 4.47 on wet grass in his Pro Day at Florida?...That's pretty darn fast for a 6-5 wide out...Is it not? Where the heck does all this slow talk come from? These armchair experts around here? I keep reading here that the kid is slow and I swear I wonder if any of you really even care about being right...Yes he was a UDFA...All that means is a ton of teams made mistakes Scouting him...Nelson was not used a ton in his 4 years in Florida...Players fall through the cracks every Draft...His production in 2 years is clear and obvious evidence Nelson should have been Drafted...And all reports are that the knee is fine and Nelson will be 100% for Camp 2013... There is no way I'm going to give The Bills FO the benefit of any doubt any longer...On top of Nelson's obvious skills in his role, he's a good kid, and by all accounts a tireless worker...He is the exact-type player that every Championship Roster needs...A receiver who gets open on 3rd Down, in the Red Zone, and who is not going to break the bank...Even at the 2nd Round tender salary Nelson would make 1/3 of what the Bills pay Kelsay...The Bills had two years of Nelson on the ultra-cheap, and instead of giving the kid the minimum tender, which is easily affordable based on what a healthy David Nelson gives you, they decide to create yet another hole on a Swiss cheese Roster at a position (WR) of zero depth...The is the exact type move that has this team lingering where they are today...They continuously make poor evaluations of talent both on the team, and in the Draft...And by the time they realize their mistakes it's usually too late...Last point about the tender...No way that minimum tender stands in the way of bringing back Byrd, or Levitre...It's not enough cash...Not even at the 2nd round tender amount... I think a healthy David Nelson will shortly prove to the Bills this was a mistake...But we'll see...I could be wrong, and the knee may never be the same...I realize the kid is not Megatron, or AJ Green...But, again assuming he's healthy, I think he goes somewhere and contributes in a big way from day #1... The new regime gets a pass from me until proven otherwise. They know more than we do (see above), and until they're proven !@#$ ups, I'm not making any assumptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Maybe he isn't. That 90th player isn't also coming off an ACL injury. or counting near as much against the cap. we will see. im going to wait to see the plan before im upset about its execution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Let's assume you are correct. What is the harm in tendering Nelson? Marrone's tenure (if you put this on him) to this very early point reminds me of Greggggg's start. You cannot just cut football players without someone to take their place. Creating additional holes does nothing positive for the team. I believe Marrone's evaluation of Nelson is that he doesn't bring anything special to the table, and he can find suitable production elsewhere. That's the only conclusion I can draw since as we have both surmised, the price tag associated with Nelson is a non-issue. Similarly, since Nelson has been so widely "acclaimed" as an all-around great guy of high character, I don't see this as a "change the cuture" move by Marrone, as opposed to what Gregggo did a decade or so ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Just let me remind you...There are folks at OBD right now that valued Aaron Williams over Colin Kaepernick, TJ Graham over Russell Wilson, Marcell Dareus over about 5 Pro Bowlers, etc, etc, etc... And I would counter this with two assertions: Re Draft: I was shocked that they passed on Wilson in the third, but so did ten other teams, including five after us, likewise for Kap, and I was unaware that we were already questioning the Dareus pick--that said, if he doesn't get his act together under Pettine, said questioning is valid. Re Regime: I'm going off the assumption that Gailey's dismissal cut into Nix's authority, that not only does he have a different dynamic with Marrone trying to evaluate for his scheme, but that we are also in the midst of the Whaley torch-passing. I believe the days of Chan/Buddy, Michael/Scottie, Mario/Luigi, Peanut butter/Jelly have ended. I get the sense that there's less synergy between Marrone and Buddy, and for the better. I totally understand that I'm displaying symptoms of a victim in an abusive relationship, namely the denial that things will never change. But I'm giving this a chance when the one thing that everyone claimed had to change did change: Ralphy handing over the keys. So when I say "regime," I'm starting (as the most ardent negative Nancies have for years) from the top-down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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