Billshank Redemption Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 unfortunately no one besides bills and jets fans even cares about spy gate even though there is a lot of merit to the discussion. That being said, hes one of the best ever and was draft in the 6th round. We would all kill for a guy like him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Lightning Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 I will admit that I was rooting for Brady in 2001. Young, unheralded QB, beat out old veteran, upset a powerhouse in the Super Bowl with one drive at exactly the right time. By 2003, he was unbearable. +1. And sorry Jim in Ank.....Brady was part of a cheating system in those SB's that gave him an unfair advantage. He's a great QB in a great system but he cheated. I won't forgot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Such bitterness. More bitterness and envy..No one outside the AFC East even remembers that, much less dwell on it like done here. This meme gets more ridiculous everytime it's posted and it's completely untrue. Speaking for myself living in Northern Virginia, I am witness to fans of several different teams viewing the Pats in the exact same light--- the legacy is tainted, deserved or not. On the other hand, the more I learn about Bellichick's methods and attention to detail the more it is cemented in my mind that he can absolutely be classified as a "genius". He has earned the distinction because he is consistently ahead of the curve. That doesn't mean the Patriots didn't act inappropriately. In 1972, Nixon beat McGovern in a landslide--- and he also cheated. Dirty tricks aside (it is politics, after all), Nixon didn't secure a landslide victory because of Watergate. He won because of a win at all costs suffocating overall strategy that exploited the weaknesses of his opponents with absolute precision. Regardless, his legacy is forever tainted. Sounds familiar, though the 21st century sports media is much more forgiving than the political media of the 1970s. Acknowledging this does not in any way justify the nonstop tire fire that has been the past 13 Bills seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 I saw that show when it was on a few years ago... I will get shredded for this, but its very tough to not root for the guy. I can't stand him cause he constantly beat the Bills but he effectively started out as a complete scrub and is now considered one of the best ever. I happened to sit next to his family at the first or 2nd Bills game that he played in 2000 or 2001. They were very normal people and were just rooting for their son. Yes, he comes off as arrogant now, yes he's the son of satan because he dominates, but seriously, how can anyone not respect what he's done. One of the best ever, if not the best ever, from very humble beginnings. Dude looked like he should have been playing Everquest in a Michigan dorm room all day rather than working out for an NFL team's draft board back in the day... Agreed. He is satans spawn because of who he plays for. But had the Bills been lucky/smart enough to get him people here would be ball washing him even more than they do Jimbo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 I think Brady is absolutely great and one of the best ever. But if he was so dedicated, and it was so obvious people should have drafted him, why did he show up skinny (not working out or hitting weights) and out of shape just before the draft? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanM.D. Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Well...there is always this 'insight' pre-draft. Having said that...Man is he a good player and I can't stand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 .....No one outside the AFC East even remembers that, much less dwell on it like done here. Yeah they do. I'm in Australia....I have 3 friends who are big into football....Rams, 49ers & Saints fans. All of us hate the Patriots.....hate Billecheat....and by association hate Brady. It seems to me that football fans who value the concepts of integrity and honour, particularly how it applies to sports of any level, will never forgot that disgraceful situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cotton Fitzsimmons Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 More bitterness and envy..No one outside the AFC East even remembers that, much less dwell on it like done here. Jim, my good friend, Brady has admittedly put up hall of fame numbers throughout his career. That is undeniable. Logically, however, that is a separate issue from spygate. Brady can, in fact, be a great QB who was also assisted by unethical activities that violated the rules of the game. It is a factual statement that Brady has not won a SB since 2004 and not since they were outted for having recorded team walk throughs, signals, etc. Would Brady and the Pats have beaten the Rams in '01 had they not covertly filmed their walk through? Who knows... the game was won by a last second FG as is. Brady is certainly a first ballot hall of famer regardless of our personal opinions of him and the Patriots organization, but he would do a lot for his legacy to win a SB post spygate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRH Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 He cheated. That's not bitterness. That's fact. Why is THAT so hard for people to accept? By the way, I would also wager that fans of the Rams, Eagles and Panthers still remember this. Jim, my good friend, Brady has admittedly put up hall of fame numbers throughout his career. That is undeniable. Logically, however, that is a separate issue from spygate. Brady can, in fact, be a great QB who was also assisted by unethical activities that violated the rules of the game. It is a factual statement that Brady has not won a SB since 2004 and not since they were outted for having recorded team walk throughs, signals, etc. Would Brady and the Pats have beaten the Rams in '01 had they not covertly filmed their walk through? Who knows... the game was won by a last second FG as is. Brady is certainly a first ballot hall of famer regardless of our personal opinions of him and the Patriots organization, but he would do a lot for his legacy to win a SB post spygate. This. Put it this way: Barry Bonds was one of the greatest baseball players ever before he used steroids -- three MVP awards, nearly 400 home runs, over 400 stolen bases, etc. Roger Clemens was one of the greatest pitchers ever before he used steroids -- three Cy Youngs, nearly 200 wins, 3,000 strikeouts, a 20-K game, etc. With Tom Brady, we'll never know. By the time his cheating was exposed, he had amassed enough experience in reading NFL defenses to continue at a high level. Who's to say that he would have gotten to that level if he hadn't cheated in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 He cheated. That's not bitterness. That's fact. Why is THAT so hard for people to accept? By the way, I would also wager that fans of the Rams, Eagles and Panthers still remember this. Everyone remembers this and most consider them cheaters. People can claim otherwise, but that's not dealing in reality. This. Put it this way: Barry Bonds was one of the greatest baseball players ever before he used steroids -- three MVP awards, nearly 400 home runs, over 400 stolen bases, etc. Roger Clemens was one of the greatest pitchers ever before he used steroids -- three Cy Youngs, nearly 200 wins, 3,000 strikeouts, a 20-K game, etc. With Tom Brady, we'll never know. By the time his cheating was exposed, he had amassed enough experience in reading NFL defenses to continue at a high level. Who's to say that he would have gotten to that level if he hadn't cheated in the first place? Thank you. Cheating won't make you a professional-level player...but it will help you as one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordio Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 This thread is not about if Brady is the greatest QB or if he cheated....It was simply to provide info as to where he was prior to that ill-fated draft (For the Bills). The fact that he has made 2 other super bowls post cheating and is on his way to another one possibly this year shows that he is not your average QB. The phenomenal numbers this guy has put year-in-year-out the past 7-8 years is simply mind boggling. Please give credit where credit is due. I agree with everything you have said. System/no system, spygate/no spygate, another super bowl win/not another super bowl win brady & even Manning are going to go down as 2 of the best QBS ever to play the game if the best, right up there with Marino/Montana/Tarkenten etc... My question is & I am really interested to hear some responses, when is Brady & Manning going to slow down. When guys like Marino/Kelly/Fouts/Bradshaw/Aikmen/Young were 35/36 they were pretty much shot. Brady in particular is as good as he has ever been. It makes no sense. He is going to be 36 this year, noway this guy should be playing as well as he is & there looks like there is no end in sight. I remember Kelly his last few years, it was noticeable that he lost his fastball, could not hit the 20 yard sideline route anymore, could not move around in the pocket & no sense where the rush was or where it was coming from. I just do not get how Brady & Manning could still be this good after all these years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 I agree with everything you have said. System/no system, spygate/no spygate, another super bowl win/not another super bowl win brady & even Manning are going to go down as 2 of the best QBS ever to play the game if the best, right up there with Marino/Montana/Tarkenten etc... My question is & I am really interested to hear some responses, when is Brady & Manning going to slow down. When guys like Marino/Kelly/Fouts/Bradshaw/Aikmen/Young were 35/36 they were pretty much shot. Brady in particular is as good as he has ever been. It makes no sense. He is going to be 36 this year, noway this guy should be playing as well as he is & there looks like there is no end in sight. I remember Kelly his last few years, it was noticeable that he lost his fastball, could not hit the 20 yard sideline route anymore, could not move around in the pocket & no sense where the rush was or where it was coming from. I just do not get how Brady & Manning could still be this good after all these years. QB's of today are so protected compared to those of the past, it's not even funny. Guys who played prior to around 2000 got killed during their days. But Manning looks to be on the downside and Brady will get there soon. You can only play for so long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 QB's of today are so protected compared to those of the past, it's not even funny. Guys who played prior to around 2000 got killed during their days. But Manning looks to be on the downside and Brady will get there soon. You can only play for so long. plus medicine has come a loooong way. bradys acl and mannings neck injuries might have been far more serious than just a missed season followed by business as usual 20 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 (edited) hes very good and may be the best ever but for him and his wonderful family his legacy will always be as a cheater Someone please explain how Brady cheated? You guys act like Brady, or any other player on those teams, were the ones taping the walk throughs. They had nothing to do with it and almost certainly knew nothing about it as that was coaching info. Pats couldn't risk showing those tapes, so if anything, coaches reviewed them trying to pick something up and then communicate that to the team in their own manner. Edited January 16, 2013 by Alphadawg7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Someone please explain how Brady cheated? You guys act like Brady, or any other player on those teams, were the ones taping the walk throughs. They had nothing to do with it and almost certainly knew nothing about it as that was coaching info. Pats couldn't risk showing those tapes, so if anything, coaches reviewed them trying to pick something up and then communicate that to the team in their own manner. im in the brady is the greatest ever camp but there are other rumors too - such as the headset staying on so coaches could communicate to them (though logistics there seem murky at best - with the fast pace and bullets flying out on the field i imagine getting a good read from the sideline and actually communicating it in a manner that is quick enough, and clear enough to process for a guy standing in the pocket to use would be incredibly tough). when all is said and done though, hes been phenomenal as a player. theres a certain irony to the "hes not all that great cause he lost super bowls" crowd on here, given our own history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordio Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 QB's of today are so protected compared to those of the past, it's not even funny. Guys who played prior to around 2000 got killed during their days. But Manning looks to be on the downside and Brady will get there soon. You can only play for so long. I could see Manning falling off. That pass he made at the end of the game reminded me of Favre & his last game. I hope Brady hits his downside soon. I don't know how much more I could take of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Ok, if I'm getting this right... since Brady and co cheated for a few years, his whole career is negated? When did they stop cheating? 2007? What numbers has he put up since then? Yeah, let's get real. Just admit he's a great QB regardless of the spygate nonsense. We're just bitter that we've never had a winning player or team on the level of the 2000's Patriots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 QB's of today are so protected compared to those of the past, it's not even funny. Guys who played prior to around 2000 got killed during their days. But Manning looks to be on the downside and Brady will get there soon. You can only play for so long. Mike Vick, Kurt Warner, Brett Favre, Big Ben, Jay Cutler and others want me to tell you you don't know what you're talking about. Kelly took more than 35 sacks twice in his career (his first and last seasons, actually). Throwing more flags after the QB is decked isn't really "protecting" the QB. And it obviously isn't a deterrent to late hits or helmet to helmets, etc. D's are T-ing off on QB whenever they can and a hard as ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 (edited) Mike Vick, Kurt Warner, Brett Favre, Big Ben, Jay Cutler and others want me to tell you you don't know what you're talking about. Kelly took more than 35 sacks twice in his career (his first and last seasons, actually). Throwing more flags after the QB is decked isn't really "protecting" the QB. And it obviously isn't a deterrent to late hits or helmet to helmets, etc. D's are T-ing off on QB whenever they can and a hard as ever. in a passing league the qb will certainly make up for the rules protections simply by dropping back a lot more. Kelly never threw more than 480 in a season. Fitz had 505 this year, and 569 last. heck he had 440 in 13 games the year before Stafford threw 727. thats nearly two seasons worth of drop backs, and the corresponding hits - even if hes getting protected a bit more. brees - 670 brady - 637 p manning - 583 (679 his last year with for the colts) Edited January 16, 2013 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 in a passing league the qb will certainly make up for the rules protections simply by dropping back a lot more. Kelly never threw more than 480 in a season. Fitz had 505 this year, and 569 last. heck he had 440 in 13 games the year before Stafford threw 727. thats nearly two seasons worth of drop backs, and the corresponding hits - even if hes getting protected a bit more. brees - 670 brady - 637 p manning - 583 (679 his last year with for the colts) More drop back=far more hits. I would bet Stafford has taken more hits already than Jimbo did in his whole career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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