Bills' 10 best quarterbacks vs. Miami's 10 best

[tomdayfan]

The Ft. Lauderdale Sun Sentinel ranked the Dolphins' all-time 10 best quarterbacks. Obviously Marino is #1 and Griese is #2....but how about Chad Pennington as #3? And it gets a lot worse after that.

Dolphins top 10 QB's

 

So I got to thinking....Kelly vs. Marino is a pretty even competition at #1.

Kemp vs. Griese at #2: slight advantage Dolphins?

Ferguson #3: clear advantage Bills.

Where do we go from there?

Here's my list:

4) Flutie

5) Reich

6) Bledsoe

7) Fitz

8) Lamonica

9) Dennis Shaw

10)James Harris

 

I left off Edwards, Collins, Van Pelt....and of course JP & Rob Johnson. Discuss.

Edited May 16, 2012 by tomdayfan

[NoSaint]

The Ft. Lauderdale Sun Sentinel ranked the Dolphins' all-time 10 best quarterbacks. Obviously Marino is #1 and Griese is #2....but how about Chad Pennington as #3? And it gets a lot worse after that.

Dolphins top 10 QB's

 

So I got to thinking....Kelly vs. Marino is a pretty even competition at #1.

Kemp vs. Griese at #2: slight advantage Dolphins?

Ferguson #3: clear advantage Bills.

Where do we go from there?

Here's my list:

4) Flutie

5) Reich

6) Bledsoe

7) Fitz

8) Lamonica

9) Dennis Shaw

10)James Harris

 

I left off Edwards, Collins, Van Pelt....and of course JP & Rob Johnson. Discuss.

 

With us? Career? How do you normalize across eras? I find reich feeling too high, but I didn't really get to watch a lot of those guys.

[Best Player Available]

The Ft. Lauderdale Sun Sentinel ranked the Dolphins' all-time 10 best quarterbacks. Obviously Marino is #1 and Griese is #2....but how about Chad Pennington as #3? And it gets a lot worse after that.

Dolphins top 10 QB's

 

So I got to thinking....Kelly vs. Marino is a pretty even competition at #1.

Kemp vs. Griese at #2: slight advantage Dolphins?

Ferguson #3: clear advantage Bills.

Where do we go from there?

Here's my list:

4) Flutie

5) Reich

6) Bledsoe

7) Fitz

8) Lamonica

9) Dennis Shaw

10)James Harris

 

I left off Edwards, Collins, Van Pelt....and of course JP & Rob Johnson. Discuss.

If your talking head to head competition. Kelly owns Marino's ass.

[Canks]

I don't know. all those guys did great with linemen who arguably had shorter arms than any of the current linemen after them. I'd say that in itself is enough to give some extra cheddar points to the older generation qb's.

Although Hamdan still goes 2nd. Dude makes great shirts

 

trust me

Edited May 16, 2012 by Canks

[Buftex]

The Ft. Lauderdale Sun Sentinel ranked the Dolphins' all-time 10 best quarterbacks. Obviously Marino is #1 and Griese is #2....but how about Chad Pennington as #3? And it gets a lot worse after that.

Dolphins top 10 QB's

 

So I got to thinking....Kelly vs. Marino is a pretty even competition at #1.

Kemp vs. Griese at #2: slight advantage Dolphins?

Ferguson #3: clear advantage Bills.

Where do we go from there?

Here's my list:

4) Flutie

5) Reich

6) Bledsoe

7) Fitz

8) Lamonica

9) Dennis Shaw

10)James Harris

 

I left off Edwards, Collins, Van Pelt....and of course JP & Rob Johnson. Discuss.

 

 

When I first read your list, I was thinking "that's it? He has to be forgetting somebody" But, no that is it. Of course, I would probably put RJ over Shaw and Harris...but that is just me!

 

I would probably rank Lamonica a little higher on the list, at least above Fitz at this point...of course, I am too young to have seen him play in Buffalo, and only vaguely remember him as a Raider...probably more from football cards than anything. But, his reputation as a Buffalo Bill was pretty high...my godfather (a die hard Notre Dame guy) would swear to this day, the Bills made a huge mistake in getting rid of Lamonica, and sticking with Kemp. The Bills first QB controversy!

 

If you base it solely on what these guys did as Bills, it is a pretty short list, isn't it? Of course, when you think about it, much older teams, like the Bears and Lions would have a hard time coming up with 10 guys any better than the Bills had to offer.

 

I will say, the first half of the 2002 season, Bledsoe's first 8 games, was probably the highest extended level of play I can recall from any Bills QB, including Kelly and Fergy...not saying he was better than either guy, but that was a great first half of a season, offensively...of course games 9-16 kind of canceled it out!

Edited May 16, 2012 by Buftex

[Dragonborn10]

How do you even put Reich on the list? He had one amazing less than half of a game.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

How do you even put Reich on the list? He had one amazing less than half of a game.

Bills career passing… sortable database:

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/career-passing.htm

 

Reich is 13th all-time in pass attempts… look who's above him on the list.

 

 

[ganesh]

How do you even put Reich on the list? He had one amazing less than half of a game.

And he sucked with the Expansion Panthers

[billsintaiwan]

Bills career passing… sortable database:

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/career-passing.htm

 

Reich is 13th all-time in pass attempts… look who's above him on the list.

 

good link. flutie 21-9. near the bottom in sack percentage. flutie used to be tough to watch sometimes, but i'll bet he had one of the lowest "3 and out" percentages of bills qbs as well. always seemed like he moved the chains a bit. big factor in our d being so good during that period.

Edited May 16, 2012 by billsintaiwan

[Coach55]

I can make a very good argument why Fergy is not the 3rd best QB in Bills history. Although he played for a long time, the team did nothing and other than handing the ball to Simpson, he did nothing. I am not saying he was a horrible QB, but if given the choice, I would take Flutie hands down. 21-9 for a career record is pretty good all things considered. Lamonica is probably the 3rd best QB (if not 2nd) on the list, however just like Bledsoe his performance came elsewhere.

 

good link. flutie 21-9. near the bottom in sack percentage. flutie used to be tough to watch sometimes, but i'll bet he had one of the lowest "3 and out" percentages of bills qbs as well. always seemed like he moved the chains a bit. big factor in our d being so good during that period.

 

 

Of the 194 QBs All-time that Qualify, Flutie ranks 16th in Sack%.... Rob Johnson 194th...

 

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_sacked_perc_career.htm

[tennesseeboy]

Are we ranking them as quarterbacks for their career or for their time with the Bills? Harris, Lamonica and Bledsoe would rank a bit higher taking their entire career into consideration.

I LOVE Kemp and don't get me wrong, but I would have to put him at a draw with Griese or (God forbid) give Griese a slight edge.

 

Good list though...although I don't see Hobert the playbook guy anywhere...or Dan Darragh...or Gary Marangi...or Richie Lucas..or Warren Rabb?

[San Jose Bills Fan]

good link. flutie 21-9. near the bottom in sack percentage. flutie used to be tough to watch sometimes, but i'll bet he had one of the lowest "3 and out" percentages of bills qbs as well. always seemed like he moved the chains a bit. big factor in our d being so good during that period.

 

Of the 194 QBs All-time that Qualify, Flutie ranks 16th in Sack%.... Rob Johnson 194th...

 

 

http://www.pro-footb...perc_career.htm

Yep.

 

There are people here who still think it was all about the defense, even though Johnson had a losing record with that same defense.

 

That extra 2-3 first downs each game… the extra 5 minutes of possession time… all those things effect the outcome of football games.

 

Flutie had lots of intangibles… Johnson had zero.

 

Flutie also had 7 4th quarter comebacks in his 30 starts in Buffalo. He always seemed to have a trick or two up his sleeve for the end.

 

How do you even put Reich on the list? He had one amazing less than half of a game.

 

Bills career passing… sortable database:

 

http://www.pro-footb...eer-passing.htm

 

Reich is 13th all-time in pass attempts… look who's above him on the list.

 

 

And he sucked with the Expansion Panthers

So as I was saying to you guys, 13th overall in career pass attempts with the Bills behind such luminaries as Dennis Shaw, JP Losman, Trent Edwards, Todd Collins, and Alex Van Pelt.

 

Not only did Frank Reich command the Bills in the Greatest Comeback game but he was also (along with Gary Kubiak) considered the best backup quarterback of his era.

 

That's why he is on the list. Have a little respect for the guy.

Edited May 16, 2012 by San Jose Bills Fan

[OCinBuffalo]

If your talking head to head competition. Kelly owns Marino's ass.

That's why when I heard Colin Cowherd trying to say that Tony Romo is a top 5 QB yesterday, and even an all time great, and using Dan Marino as evidence, I scoffed.

 

As if Eli Manning is anywhere near being Tony Romo's Jim Kelly. Ridiculous. Half the Giant fans wanted Eli gone before last year, and they could make a good case. Kelly, and Bruce Smith, etc. are the ONLY reason Marino didn't go to, or win, SBs.

 

Who is stopping Romo from going to/winning playoff games? Answer: Tony Romo

 

All time Buffalo QBs: I'd move Bledsoe ahead of Flutie.

 

Here's hoping that Fitz ends up #3 on this list by the end of the year.

[DDD]

If your talking head to head competition. Kelly owns Marino's ass.

 

That was a function of the Bills having superior talent around Kelly. This won't be popular but given the choice of Marino or Kelly, I'd take Marino in a heartbeat.

[OCinBuffalo]

That was a function of the Bills having superior talent around Kelly. This won't be popular but given the choice of Marino or Kelly, I'd take Marino in a heartbeat.

We all "knew" that pound for pound, and on paper, Marino was probably better in terms of pure pocket passing skill.

 

But, there other kinds of pounds. Like the pounding Jim Kelly would give you if you intercepted his pass. Like the pounding that Kelly could take, and that Marino couldn't. The pounding Marino routinely got from the Bills being what turned him into Trent Dilfer in the 4th quarter of playoff games.

 

Sure this is probably right, if we look at it from a Madden score perspective. But that's my issue with Madden. What is the Madden score of Dan Marino, who has been sacked 4 times already, one a crushing hit from both Bruce and Talley, and is playing in 30 mph winds in Buffalo, in the 4th quarter? What is Kelly's under the same set of conditions?

 

What will be Tom Brady's/Tony Romo's madden score....if they have to play our new defense...under the same set of conditions?

[C.Biscuit97]

If your talking head to head competition. Kelly owns Marino's ass.

 

True, but it is more the Bills' team owned the Dolphins' team. I can't stand him (unpopular opinion alert) but if Kelly and Marino switched teams, would there be any dropoff? I hate to say it, but I won't be surprised if we won one of those SBs with redfaced Dan. The Bills had a much better team than the Fins.

 

And since they retired, have any 2 teams had worse groups of QBs than both teams?

[KD in CA]

Regarding the Dolphin list, Chad Pennington ahead of Earl Morrall and Don Strock?

[Buftex]

This thread is so full of crazy assumptions and jumps in logic, it would be difficult to respond to them all...but this thread, as fun as it is, is a perfect example why you can't compare eras, and you have to put a players career in perspective, his role on the team, etc into some sort of perspective.

 

To say that "all Frank did was have one half of a great game" is not accurate at all. He was the consumate back-up QB, and performed at a very high level, whenever he was called upon. Don't forget, it wasn't just the "Comeback" game...Reich stepped in for Kelly a few times during those Super Bowl runs, and came up big, virtually every time. Don't forget a huge game against the Dolphins that iced the division for us, or his first start, with the dramatic come from behind final moments victory on Monday Night against the Rams...that win was the difference between, not only the Bills winning their divison in 1989, but making the playoffs at all, with their 9-7 record. If I recall, Reich started three consecutive games, (Rams, Jets and Phins) all victories, for the Bickering Bills that year...not to say Kelly wouldn't have won some, or all, of them...but Reich answered the bell, time and again.

 

Other than a season ending OT loss to the Lions the one season (Kelly was rested, as were many starters, in preperation for the playoffs) that tarnished the Bills perfect home record that year, Reichs contributions were the differences in winnig the AFC East, and ending up with the Conferences' best record, a few times...he wasn't as dynamic on the field as Kelly, but he got the job done, most any time he was called upon. Reich wasn't particularly good as a starter in Carolina, or with the Jets, but as a QB for the Bills, his contributions were very significant in conrtributing to what is, the "golden era" of the post-merger era of Bills football.

 

True, but it is more the Bills' team owned the Dolphins' team. I can't stand him (unpopular opinion alert) but if Kelly and Marino switched teams, would there be any dropoff? I hate to say it, but I won't be surprised if we won one of those SBs with redfaced Dan. The Bills had a much better team than the Fins.

 

And since they retired, have any 2 teams had worse groups of QBs than both teams?

 

As I mentioned in another post in this thread, go look at the history of the Bears and Lions QB position...the Bills and Dolphins don't look so pathetic, with shorter histories.

[thr_wedge]

That's why when I heard Colin Cowherd trying to say that Tony Romo is a top 5 QB yesterday, and even an all time great, and using Dan Marino as evidence, I scoffed.

 

As if Eli Manning is anywhere near being Tony Romo's Jim Kelly. Ridiculous. Half the Giant fans wanted Eli gone before last year, and they could make a good case. Kelly, and Bruce Smith, etc. are the ONLY reason Marino didn't go to, or win, SBs.

 

Who is stopping Romo from going to/winning playoff games? Answer: Tony Romo

 

All time Buffalo QBs: I'd move Bledsoe ahead of Flutie.

 

Here's hoping that Fitz ends up #3 on this list by the end of the year.

 

I'm hoping Fitz moves to #1 by the end of this year.

[Billsrhody]

GB Packers top 5:

 

Favre

Starr

Rodgers

Hasselbeck

Flynn

 

(I dont know any of the old timers but one of them is probably better than Flynn / Hasselbeck.

 

How many teams even have 1 QB that is better than the top 3 guys on their list? That team has been blessed..

[shrader]

GB Packers top 5:

 

Favre

Starr

Rodgers

Hasselbeck

Flynn

 

(I dont know any of the old timers but one of them is probably better than Flynn / Hasselbeck.

 

How many teams even have 1 QB that is better than the top 3 guys on their list? That team has been blessed..

 

It makes you think about any team that wound up with back to back elite QBs. San Francisco is the first that comes to my mind.

[Sniper]

WOOW,

 

With a good season Fitz will be battling for our third best QB in history

[McD]

That was a function of the Bills having superior talent around Kelly. This won't be popular but given the choice of Marino or Kelly, I'd take Marino in a heartbeat.

 

The fins had some good talent surrounding Marino, the issue they had was that they asked Danny Boy to throw all the damned time instead of managing a balanced attack. Kelly called his own plays and if he wanted to be an egomaniac (which he was to a large extent), he could have passed, and passed and passed some more, but Kelly was a better overall QB than Marino. Dan played in sunny Miami, while Jimbo played in the swirling Rich Stadium... Kelly also lost 2 years in the USFL where he DESTROYED the league!

 

"In two seasons in Houston, running coach Mouse Davis' run-and-shoot offense, he threw for 9,842 yards and 83 touchdowns, completing 63% with an average of 8.53 yards per attempt with 45 interceptions. He was the USFL MVP in 1984, when he set a league record with 5,219 yards passing and 44 TD passes. Kelly's USFL records eclipsed those of fellow league quarterbacks Doug Williams and Steve Young"...

 

Marino was probably a better "pure" passer, but Kelly was a better overall QB.

[Dragonborn10]

Yep.

 

There are people here who still think it was all about the defense, even though Johnson had a losing record with that same defense.

 

That extra 2-3 first downs each game… the extra 5 minutes of possession time… all those things effect the outcome of football games.

 

Flutie had lots of intangibles… Johnson had zero.

 

Flutie also had 7 4th quarter comebacks in his 30 starts in Buffalo. He always seemed to have a trick or two up his sleeve for the end.

 

 

 

 

 

 

So as I was saying to you guys, 13th overall in career pass attempts with the Bills behind such luminaries as Dennis Shaw, JP Losman, Trent Edwards, Todd Collins, and Alex Van Pelt.

 

Not only did Frank Reich command the Bills in the Greatest Comeback game but he was also (along with Gary Kubiak) considered the best backup quarterback of his era.

 

That's why he is on the list. Have a little respect for the guy.

If he was any good in the first half of that game and the first series of the second half, it wouldn't have been the greatest comeback. If the LB intercepts the ball that goes right through his hands the serie after Reich threw the pick six even Marv probalby would have given up at that point. How do you even decide who is best back-up QB of an era?

And lastly how frickin sad is it that a Top Ten list of franchise QB's has a career back-up in the discussion!!! Might as well add Vince Young to the list now, because he was much more successful that Reich ever was as a starter.

 

GB Packers top 5:

 

Favre

Starr

Rodgers

Hasselbeck

Flynn

 

(I dont know any of the old timers but one of them is probably better than Flynn / Hasselbeck.

 

How many teams even have 1 QB that is better than the top 3 guys on their list? That team has been blessed..

Don Majcowski(sp?) and Lynn Dickey were both better than Flynn

[tomdayfan]

Don Majkowski, from Depew....the last quarterback to start a game for the Pack before Brett Favre's streak. And he should be in their top 5.

I wonder how many other sites like this are having discussions like this because of the Sun-Sentinel list.

It shows how lucky teams are to have great quarterbacks who stay healthy and have long careers.

[Charles Romes]

good link. flutie 21-9. near the bottom in sack percentage. flutie used to be tough to watch sometimes, but i'll bet he had one of the lowest "3 and out" percentages of bills qbs as well. always seemed like he moved the chains a bit. big factor in our d being so good during that period.

 

Doug Flutie squandered the best defense in franchise history.

[silvermike]

GB Packers top 5:

 

Favre

Starr

Rodgers

Hasselbeck

Flynn

 

(I dont know any of the old timers but one of them is probably better than Flynn / Hasselbeck.

 

How many teams even have 1 QB that is better than the top 3 guys on their list? That team has been blessed..

 

Hasselbeck? He had all of 30 passes as a Packer. Odd choice. Lynn Dickey seems to be #4: between those guys, it covers all but about ten years since 1956.

[Dorkington]

Rob Johnson had the best QB rating out of QBs who played at least 30 games on the Bills.

 

Crazy.

 

True, but it is more the Bills' team owned the Dolphins' team. I can't stand him (unpopular opinion alert) but if Kelly and Marino switched teams, would there be any dropoff? I hate to say it, but I won't be surprised if we won one of those SBs with redfaced Dan. The Bills had a much better team than the Fins.

 

And since they retired, have any 2 teams had worse groups of QBs than both teams?

I share this opinion.

 

I love Kelly, but I can admit that Marino is a better QB.

[Dorkington]

Ok, so I took their data and exported into Excel to play with QBs with over 300 attempts (don't know why I chose that number, I just did). I'm concentrating on rates and percentages, since we all know who our long lasting QBs were (totals). This is just for fun.

 

QB Rating:

	Name		Rate
1	Rob Johnson	85.5
2	Jim Kelly	84.4
3	Frank Reich	81.9
4	Doug Flutie	81.7
5	Drew Bledsoe	79.2
6	R. Fitzpatrick	78.3
7	Trent Edwards	76.8
8	J.P. Losman	75.6
9	Joe Ferguson	68.9
10	Todd Collins	68.5

 

Win Percentage:

	Name		Win Pct
1	D. Lamonica	100.00%
2	Doug Flutie	70.00%
3	Jim Kelly	63.13%
4	Jack Kemp	57.79%
5	Frank Reich	50.00%
6	Drew Bledsoe	47.92%
7	Joe Ferguson	47.24%
8	Johnny Green	45.45%
9	Trent Edwards	43.75%
10	Todd Collins	41.18%

 

Completion Percentage:

	Name		Cmp%
1	Trent Edwards	60.9
2	Rob Johnson	60.5
3	Jim Kelly	60.1
4	R. Fitzpatrick	59.4
5	J.P. Losman	59.3
6	Drew Bledsoe	59.1
7	Frank Reich	58.9
8	Doug Flutie	56.3
9	Alex Van Pelt	54.9
10	Todd Collins	54.7

 

TD Percentage:

	Name		TD%
1	Jim Kelly	5.0%
2	Frank Reich	4.8%
3	R. Fitzpatrick	4.5%
4	D. Lamonica	4.5%
5	Johnny Green	4.5%
6	Doug Flutie	4.4%
7	Joe Ferguson	4.3%
8	Rob Johnson	4.1%
9	Dennis Shaw	3.8%
10	Drew Bledsoe	3.6%

 

Int Percentage:

	Name		Int%
1	Rob Johnson	2.6%
2	Doug Flutie	2.8%
3	Drew Bledsoe	2.8%
4	Trent Edwards	3.1%
5	Frank Reich	3.2%
6	J.P. Losman	3.6%
7	Jim Kelly	3.7%
8	Todd Collins	3.7%
9	R. Fitzpatrick	3.9%
10	Johnny Green	4.2%

 

Yards per Attempt (Classic):

	Name		Y/A
1	Jim Kelly	7.4
2	Rob Johnson	7.2
3	Doug Flutie	7.1
4	D. Lamonica	7.1
5	Dennis Shaw	6.9
6	Jack Kemp	6.8
7	Frank Reich	6.7
8	R. Fitzpatrick	6.7
9	Drew Bledsoe	6.6
10	J.P. Losman	6.6

 

Yards per Game:

	Name		Y/G
1	Jim Kelly	221.7
2	R. Fitzpatrick	211.6
3	Drew Bledsoe	211.5
4	Doug Flutie	194.4
5	Jack Kemp	172
6	Trent Edwards	168.8
7	Joe Ferguson	168.2
8	Rob Johnson	159.9
9	J.P. Losman	147.9
10	Dennis Shaw	139.7

 

PFR's Adjusted Net Yards Gained per Pass Attempt*:

	Name		ANY/A
1	Doug Flutie	6.2
2	Jim Kelly	5.9
3	R. Fitzpatrick	5.2
4	Rob Johnson	5.1
5	Drew Bledsoe	5
6	Frank Reich	5
7	Trent Edwards	4.9
8	Joe Ferguson	4.5
9	J.P. Losman	4.4
10	Alex Van Pelt	4.3

*ANY/A - adjusted net yards per passing attempt: (pass yards + 20*(pass TD) - 45*(interceptions thrown) - sack yards)/(passing attempts + sacks). My note: This is a good indicator of how much production a QB puts out, imo.

 

Sack Percentage:

	Name		Sk%
1	Alex Van Pelt	3.8%
2	Doug Flutie	4.3%
3	R. Fitzpatrick	5.1%
4	Jack Kemp	5.8%
5	Jim Kelly	6.3%
6	Joe Ferguson	6.6%
7	Trent Edwards	6.9%
8	Drew Bledsoe	8.4%
9	Frank Reich	9.2%
10	Todd Collins	9.7%

[BuffBill]

How do you even put Reich on the list? He had one amazing less than half of a game.

Not arguing whether he should be on the list or not, but Kelly actually missed a fair amount of games with injuries and the Bills would have been up you know what river without a paddle without Reich. I remember in 1989, I took leave from Hawaii to see 3 straight games at home, wanting to see Kelly play, and Riech played all 3 because of an injury to Kelly. The Bills won all 3, including a monday night against the Rams, who were the last unbeaten team in the NFL at the time, and won in another comeback in a downpour.

Edited May 17, 2012 by BuffBill