Perhaps we should stop calling it a "lack of depth"

[Coach Tuesday]

It's a lack of investment.

 

To be sure, the Bills lack roster depth, as they have for two decades. But I get concerned when posters and writers refer to this issue as though it's the cause of the Bills' current woes - it isn't. Rather, it's a symptom of a lack of investment in the product by OBD. To call the problem a "lack of depth" suggests that the issue can somehow be cured through one or two more drafts. But we all know that isn't the case, because the Bills have shown over and over again that they won't (i) re-sign their own players at market rates, or (ii) spend on free agents to improve the roster. So all that happens through the draft is a recylcing process, whereby we let Poz/Whitner walk and draft Sheppard/Searcy to replace them. Next year no doubt we'll draft Evans' replacement.

 

The fundamental problem is a lack of investment by the owner and his bean counters. The entire concept of "building through the draft," as preached by Nix, is a sham, because the philosophy doesn't work if you don't continue to accumulate players through free agency or re-signing your own guys. In order to have depth, you need to invest $$ in your personnel, in at least one of those two ways. The Bills do neither. Most successful teams focus on at least one or the other - Green Bay and Pittsburgh draft well and tend to re-sign their best players to second contracts (though not all of them); San Francisco has 7 starters this year that it signed as free agents.

 

Again, I know this isn't a new point - we all know where the Bills' struggles derive from. I just don't want the discussion about "lack of depth" to lose sight of what the issue really is. The Bills don't invest. They don't rebuild - they recycle. They are built to turn a profit for their ownership with minimal personnel expenditures, and they have succeeded in doing so. They are built to sell tickets in July and August. They are not built to compete in December and January.

[H2o]

They went after Clabo, but he re-signed with Atlanta. Puz wanted to play in a 4-3 defense so he took the money and went to Jax. Whitner thought he was worth top 5 Safety money buh-bye. This last offseason was shortened significantly and FA was not like normal because it came AFTER the draft. If Nix and Co. are not active this offseason I would be shocked. I'll grab my torch and pitchfork with the rest of you if that's the case. Until then, I think it's just another case of a season that has gone horribly wrong and injuries have played a major part in it. When Kyle and Merriman went down everything changed.

[Coach Tuesday]

They went after Clabo, but he re-signed with Atlanta. Puz wanted to play in a 4-3 defense so he took the money and went to Jax. Whitner thought he was worth top 5 Safety money buh-bye. This last offseason was shortened significantly and FA was not like normal because it came AFTER the draft. If Nix and Co. are not active this offseason I would be shocked. I'll grab my torch and pitchfork with the rest of you if that's the case. Until then, I think it's just another case of a season that has gone horribly wrong and injuries have played a major part in it. When Kyle and Merriman went down everything changed.

 

They have not had roster depth for 20+ years. Whitner and Poz shouldn't have been allowed to make it to their last season - they should've been locked up well before then at more reasonable rates. And I don't buy the 4-3 argument with Poz - the Bills basically play a 4-3.

[HuSeYiN1978]

The Bills are the only team in the league that allows unhappy players to walk... Cincinnatti basically retired Carson Palmer and stuck to their guns until an offer they couldn't refuse was presented to them by the Raiders... Mcgayhee didn't like Buffalo's nightlife so we said ok you can go... I mean it's ridiculous... Bills suck

[Coach Tuesday]

The Bills are the only team in the league that allows unhappy players to walk... Cincinnatti basically retired Carson Palmer and stuck to their guns until an offer they couldn't refuse was presented to them by the Raiders... Mcgayhee didn't like Buffalo's nightlife so we said ok you can go... I mean it's ridiculous... Bills suck

 

I sort of agree with that, but to be fair they got picks for McGahee. But they let Peters go, albeit with picks in return (and used one of them on Wood). I would NEVER have made that trade.

[jcbillsfan]

Jeez , the entire Bills nation wanted whitner gone

as poz wanted to play in a 4/3 , that said his replacement is not the problem

 

It is very hard to get vets to come to a 4-12 to be backups

 

Imo this looks like a very strong draft. It also is the best free agent class since Buddy took over.

 

Lets see what happens

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

It's a lack of investment.

 

I don't think it's a lack of investment, it's just bad investment decisions.

 

Look at the Steelers--they let star players walk all the time (e.g., a lot of their star LB's like Chad Brown, LeVon Kirkland, Kendrell Bell, Greg Lloyd, etc.)--but because they have a replacement plan.

 

The key is you draft a core of key guys, and try to hang on to them. Maybe there are guys that you would love to hang onto, but are too costly--then you plan by drafting their replacements.

[Mr. WEO]

I don't get the "lack of depth" complaint. We are drafting backups every year. In fact, many here have been complimenting our backups for weeks (Searcy, Williams, Sheppard, Hairston, the kid who returns kicks...) now. Sounds like our backups (depth) are pretty good.

 

Thi steam struggles to draft starters. That's a problem for a team with so many needs.

[Homey D. Clown]

It's a lack of investment.

 

To be sure, the Bills lack roster depth, as they have for two decades. But I get concerned when posters and writers refer to this issue as though it's the cause of the Bills' current woes - it isn't. Rather, it's a symptom of a lack of investment in the product by OBD. To call the problem a "lack of depth" suggests that the issue can somehow be cured through one or two more drafts. But we all know that isn't the case, because the Bills have shown over and over again that they won't (i) re-sign their own players at market rates, or (ii) spend on free agents to improve the roster. So all that happens through the draft is a recylcing process, whereby we let Poz/Whitner walk and draft Sheppard/Searcy to replace them. Next year no doubt we'll draft Evans' replacement.

 

The fundamental problem is a lack of investment by the owner and his bean counters. The entire concept of "building through the draft," as preached by Nix, is a sham, because the philosophy doesn't work if you don't continue to accumulate players through free agency or re-signing your own guys. In order to have depth, you need to invest $$ in your personnel, in at least one of those two ways. The Bills do neither. Most successful teams focus on at least one or the other - Green Bay and Pittsburgh draft well and tend to re-sign their best players to second contracts (though not all of them); San Francisco has 7 starters this year that it signed as free agents.

 

Again, I know this isn't a new point - we all know where the Bills' struggles derive from. I just don't want the discussion about "lack of depth" to lose sight of what the issue really is. The Bills don't invest. They don't rebuild - they recycle. They are built to turn a profit for their ownership with minimal personnel expenditures, and they have succeeded in doing so. They are built to sell tickets in July and August. They are not built to compete in December and January.

 

Seriously, excellent point, and very good description of what occurs at one bills drive, or what I like to now refer to as "One Bonehead Blvd" but it is just more fun to type:

 

"Ralph is cheap"

Edited December 20, 2011 by McKinleys Curse

[RyanC883]

It's a lack of investment.

 

To be sure, the Bills lack roster depth, as they have for two decades. But I get concerned when posters and writers refer to this issue as though it's the cause of the Bills' current woes - it isn't. Rather, it's a symptom of a lack of investment in the product by OBD. To call the problem a "lack of depth" suggests that the issue can somehow be cured through one or two more drafts. But we all know that isn't the case, because the Bills have shown over and over again that they won't (i) re-sign their own players at market rates, or (ii) spend on free agents to improve the roster. So all that happens through the draft is a recylcing process, whereby we let Poz/Whitner walk and draft Sheppard/Searcy to replace them. Next year no doubt we'll draft Evans' replacement.

 

The fundamental problem is a lack of investment by the owner and his bean counters. The entire concept of "building through the draft," as preached by Nix, is a sham, because the philosophy doesn't work if you don't continue to accumulate players through free agency or re-signing your own guys. In order to have depth, you need to invest $$ in your personnel, in at least one of those two ways. The Bills do neither. Most successful teams focus on at least one or the other - Green Bay and Pittsburgh draft well and tend to re-sign their best players to second contracts (though not all of them); San Francisco has 7 starters this year that it signed as free agents.

 

Again, I know this isn't a new point - we all know where the Bills' struggles derive from. I just don't want the discussion about "lack of depth" to lose sight of what the issue really is. The Bills don't invest. They don't rebuild - they recycle. They are built to turn a profit for their ownership with minimal personnel expenditures, and they have succeeded in doing so. They are built to sell tickets in July and August. They are not built to compete in December and January.

 

 

You are 100% correct. It's a lack of investment indeed. 30 mill below the cap. Didn't sign Gathers. Didn't keep Puz (could have kept him and obtained Barnett), won't keep Johnson, thus creating two holes at WR in two years, etc.

Edited December 20, 2011 by RyanC883

[Coach Tuesday]

I don't get the "lack of depth" complaint. We are drafting backups every year. In fact, many here have been complimenting our backups for weeks (Searcy, Williams, Sheppard, Hairston, the kid who returns kicks...) now. Sounds like our backups (depth) are pretty good.

 

Thi steam struggles to draft starters. That's a problem for a team with so many needs.

 

They let starters walk in free agency and draft players to fill manufactured roster holes. And they don't compensate by signing starters in free agency because they don't want to pay market rates. Barnett was a nice get - but there is no reason they couldn't have signed Barnett AND Poz, other than $$. And let's not forget, Barnett was a bargain because he was coming off of an injury.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Coach Tuesday

[jcbillsfan]

It's a lack of investment.

 

To be sure, the Bills lack roster depth, as they have for two decades. But I get concerned when posters and writers refer to this issue as though it's the cause of the Bills' current woes - it isn't. Rather, it's a symptom of a lack of investment in the product by OBD. To call the problem a "lack of depth" suggests that the issue can somehow be cured through one or two more drafts. But we all know that isn't the case, because the Bills have shown over and over again that they won't (i) re-sign their own players at market rates, or (ii) spend on free agents to improve the roster. So all that happens through the draft is a recylcing process, whereby we let Poz/Whitner walk and draft Sheppard/Searcy to replace them. Next year no doubt we'll draft Evans' replacement.

 

The fundamental problem is a lack of investment by the owner and his bean counters. The entire concept of "building through the draft," as preached by Nix, is a sham, because the philosophy doesn't work if you don't continue to accumulate players through free agency or re-signing your own guys. In order to have depth, you need to invest $$ in your personnel, in at least one of those two ways. The Bills do neither. Most successful teams focus on at least one or the other - Green Bay and Pittsburgh draft well and tend to re-sign their best players to second contracts (though not all of them); San Francisco has 7 starters this year that it signed as free agents.

 

Again, I know this isn't a new point - we all know where the Bills' struggles derive from. I just don't want the discussion about "lack of depth" to lose sight of what the issue really is. The Bills don't invest. They don't rebuild - they recycle. They are built to turn a profit for their ownership with minimal personnel expenditures, and they have succeeded in doing so. They are built to sell tickets in July and August. They are not built to compete in December and January.

 

 

lets see where to start,

 

1 lack of depth is becasue we chahged over a coaching staff, they need players to fit the offense and the defense they want to run

the change from the crap dickie j ran to what Buddy is trying to run is night and day

 

2 Both offseasons have been tainted by labor problems. Niether had a real free agency period.

 

3 keeping in mind that they have to pay for wood, levitre, bryd,stevie,bell,chandler and do something with Fred, wasting money is not a good idea

 

4 If they were build to sell ticket in July and August then they would be trying to make a pr slash like they did with T.o , building through the draft is never sexy, winning is .

[Cookiemonster]

You are 100% correct. It's a lack of investment indeed. 30 mill below the cap. Didn't sign Gathers. Didn't keep Puz (could have kept him and obtained Barnett), won't keep Johnson, thus creating two holes at WR in two years, etc.

I was thinking the same thing yesterday, and it really came into crystal clear focus, when I saw one of our

hybrid LB/DE square up and look to be in excellent postion to make a takle well behind the los on a little pitch to

the QB's left early in the game sunday. He had perfect postion, and I proceeded to watch in horror, as Bush just

ran right aroud him for like a 12-15 yard gain. I see what everbody else has been screaming about for some time now.

Hideous, just plain hideous.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Cookiemonster

[Coach Tuesday]

lets see where to start,

 

1 lack of depth is becasue we chahged over a coaching staff, they need players to fit the offense and the defense they want to run

the change from the crap dickie j ran to what Buddy is trying to run is night and day

 

2 Both offseasons have been tainted by labor problems. Niether had a real free agency period.

 

3 keeping in mind that they have to pay for wood, levitre, bryd,stevie,bell,chandler and do something with Fred, wasting money is not a good idea

 

4 If they were build to sell ticket in July and August then they would be trying to make a pr slash like they did with T.o , building through the draft is never sexy, winning is .

 

1. The 49ers disprove your argument. They have a new coach, new offense and new defense, and have acquired 7 starters through free agency.

 

2. See 1 above.

 

3. Proof is in the pudding - let's see if they actually pay those guys. Count me as skeptical.

 

4. This is the same ownership structure that brough in TO.

[FLFan]

They have not had roster depth for 20+ years. Whitner and Poz shouldn't have been allowed to make it to their last season - they should've been locked up well before then at more reasonable rates. And I don't buy the 4-3 argument with Poz - the Bills basically play a 4-3.

They tried to negotiate with Whitner but he felt he was worth much more money than the Bills thought he was worth so he waited for free agency. By the way, he did not get what he was originally asking for as he found a relatively soft market for his services. This is all well documented. The Bills were restricted in negotiations with Poz before his contract expired due to rules set by the CBA with respect to extension offers and percentagtes of existing salalry. I do not recall the specifics of the dollars, but again, this was well documented and you can look it up. When FA started the Bills immediately made what Poz's agent referred to as a very competitive offer. He chose to play elsewhere. You need to look elsewhere to justify your arguement.

 

The Bills have acted to lock up key players this year. They resigned G. Wilson in FA and Florence. They signed Fitz, Williams, Pears. They extended Merriman before the season started. They tried to sign Stevie and negotiated with Fred as well. Those players rejected initial offers and decided to wait. You may disagree with who they have extended but it is hard to argue they are not trying to lock up players they feel are essential to their plans, at least under this regime. I am not interested in past behavior under Donahoe or Levy as it is well past the point.

 

The big problem with this team is the misses in the draft over the past 10 years, the past 5 years particularly. Since you mentioned San Francisco, here is another stat they mentioned during last night's game. SF has 11 players on their roster drafted in the top 10 picks of the draft, 8 of whom they drafted themselves. The Bills have had as many opportunities, but have whiffed. Free Agency is a great way to fill in a few good players here and there but means nothing if you have not built a solid core through the draft. Evidence abounds in the league to support this.

 

I think the jury is still out on the last two drafts but they have picked some decent to potentially very good players. Some are strating caliber and some are decent depth. They clearly need a few more. I would love to see a stud receiver, they must have a pass rusher to fill at least one of the gaping holes at OLB. They clearly do not have even one starting quality outside LB on the current roster. They need depth on the OL at least, but a real stud at LT would be sweet. This year has been awful but this team is closer than everyone thinks.

[papazoid]

these questions are specific to the current bills:

 

question #1- is it better to hang on to slightly overpaid veterans who you know are not in your future or cut them, create salary cap space and give playing time to unproven younger players who you hope are in your future ?

 

question #2- is it better to use up all your available salary cap space as fast as possible in the current year on the best available players or spend it more wisely waiting for just the right free agent or an extension for a worthy current player even if it means waiting til next year to spend it?

[taglientep]

I think we have great BACK UPS. We have no starting talent to show these guys and to lead these guys. That all we have is second string players. WE NEED STARTERS!

The fairy tales are nice where the rag tag team comes in and wins one for the gipper. But lets get real. we have plenty of #2s and #3s for depth. We need some starters now, and I mean NOW. they need to get their ass off the chair i want a front office who is working on free agency at 11:59 and making calls at 12:00 on the dot to get guys to buffalo. I think we are owed that as fans. who constantly fund sub-par performance.

 

If i hear it again this year for the 3rd straight year that nix was "sleeping and that the free agents will be there in the morning" the day of free agency I think i will take a dump on his doorstep.

 

Get up and off your ass and get to work.

[Coach Tuesday]

They tried to negotiate with Whitner but he felt he was worth much more money than the Bills thought he was worth so he waited for free agency. By the way, he did not get what he was originally asking for as he found a relatively soft market for his services. This is all well documented. The Bills were restricted in negotiations with Poz before his contract expired due to rules set by the CBA with respect to extension offers and percentagtes of existing salalry. I do not recall the specifics of the dollars, but again, this was well documented and you can look it up. When FA started the Bills immediately made what Poz's agent referred to as a very competitive offer. He chose to play elsewhere. You need to look elsewhere to justify your arguement.

 

The Bills have acted to lock up key players this year. They resigned G. Wilson in FA and Florence. They signed Fitz, Williams, Pears. They extended Merriman before the season started. They tried to sign Stevie and negotiated with Fred as well. Those players rejected initial offers and decided to wait. You may disagree with who they have extended but it is hard to argue they are not trying to lock up players they feel are essential to their plans, at least under this regime. I am not interested in past behavior under Donahoe or Levy as it is well past the point.

 

The big problem with this team is the misses in the draft over the past 10 years, the past 5 years particularly. Since you mentioned San Francisco, here is another stat they mentioned during last night's game. SF has 11 players on their roster drafted in the top 10 picks of the draft, 8 of whom they drafted themselves. The Bills have had as many opportunities, but have whiffed. Free Agency is a great way to fill in a few good players here and there but means nothing if you have not built a solid core through the draft. Evidence abounds in the league to support this.

 

I think the jury is still out on the last two drafts but they have picked some decent to potentially very good players. Some are strating caliber and some are decent depth. They clearly need a few more. I would love to see a stud receiver, they must have a pass rusher to fill at least one of the gaping holes at OLB. They clearly do not have even one starting quality outside LB on the current roster. They need depth on the OL at least, but a real stud at LT would be sweet. This year has been awful but this team is closer than everyone thinks.

 

My understanding is that they could have locked up Poz before the labor dispute/CBA expiration without those restrictions, but I could be wrong. As for Whitner, they could've locked him up earlier (or tried to) before the impasse occurred. And it certaily appeared as though they had a last crack at him before he signed with the Bengals/49ers but they declined to get involved.

 

As for disregarding Donahoe/Levy, I totally disagree. I'm not sure how you can say that it's irrelevant when we have it on good authority that Littman and Overdorf traded Evans away. It's the same group running this team, regardless of public appearances. I don't see any difference in how this team is run as opposed to the previous regimes. Steveie Johnson is going to walk - you watch. They'll draft his replacement in Round 1. Same old same old.

 

As for the draft, clearly they need to draft better, but I think the jury is still out on whether the Bills have indeed "whiffed." A counter-argument could be made that the Bills have drafted solid players but have failed to develop them and have failed to re-sign them. Whitner, Maybin and Evans are all high draft picks who are components of other teams' roster depth. McKelvin is sure to be next on that list, and perhaps Spiller after him. These players cannot be called busts right now - they just haven't been developed by the Bills. I don't see evidence of that changing, quite frankly.

[jcbillsfan]

My understanding is that they could have locked up Poz before the labor dispute/CBA expiration without those restrictions, but I could be wrong. As for Whitner, they could've locked him up earlier (or tried to) before the impasse occurred. And it certaily appeared as though they had a last crack at him before he signed with the Bengals/49ers but they declined to get involved.

 

As for disregarding Donahoe/Levy, I totally disagree. I'm not sure how you can say that it's irrelevant when we have it on good authority that Littman and Overdorf traded Evans away. It's the same group running this team, regardless of public appearances. I don't see any difference in how this team is run as opposed to the previous regimes. Steveie Johnson is going to walk - you watch. They'll draft his replacement in Round 1. Same old same old.

 

As for the draft, clearly they need to draft better, but I think the jury is still out on whether the Bills have indeed "whiffed." A counter-argument could be made that the Bills have drafted solid players but have failed to develop them and have failed to re-sign them. Whitner, Maybin and Evans are all high draft picks who are components of other teams' roster depth. McKelvin is sure to be next on that list, and perhaps Spiller after him. These players cannot be called busts right now - they just haven't been developed by the Bills. I don't see evidence of that changing, quite frankly.

the coach and buddy didn't want evans because he was viewed as soft. Nothing to do with money

[Sisyphean Bills]

these questions are specific to the current bills:

 

question #1- is it better to hang on to slightly overpaid veterans who you know are not in your future or cut them, create salary cap space and give playing time to unproven younger players who you hope are in your future ?

 

question #2- is it better to use up all your available salary cap space as fast as possible in the current year on the best available players or spend it more wisely waiting for just the right free agent or an extension for a worthy current player even if it means waiting til next year to spend it?

If the bottom drops out on the season ticket sales, then management has its answer about promising a competitive product some nebulous time in the future while asking patrons to pony up full price for the rummage today. Of course, there is always the opportunity to paper over it with "small market" clanging while the Green Bay Packers and Pittsburgh Steelers waiting lists continue to lengthen.

 

As to your questions, they pose false alternatives. What about spending the money today on the players that make the team better now and hiring coaches that can put them in the best situation to utilize their talents?