some interesting commments in PFW audibles

[Doc]

Am I reading this correctly? Miller had a 4.06 short shuttle time? That is staggeringly good.

His agility drills would have been really good for a CB, much less a LB. And that 1.57 10-yard split is impressive as well.

Edited April 14, 2011 by Doc

[PromoTheRobot]

"The following quotes are from NFL scouts, coaches and front-office personnel, speaking on the condition of anonymity."

 

Or in other words, don't believe anything you read in this article.

 

Seriously, what would be the purpose of team reps talking up and throwing praise on players that they love and hope to draft? I will believe nothing said from team reps, especially anonymous ones.

This story could be pure poo poo, but do you really think anyone would go on record by name?

 

PTR

[bladiebla]

At least with Von Miller we know what we get, I hope we get him.

 

 

[1billsfan]

Yes, it's fair that you have concerns about his weight. As comparing Willis and Miller, like I've been told, "they play different positions, you can't compare them".

 

Thanks for not asking us if the pats or steelers would take Miller over Quinn again. No one knows, yet you guaranteed they would they would take Quinn. It's posts like that, that get a rise out of me. Thanks for taking a more logical approach.

 

Oh please! The Steelers, Pats AND Ravens would most definitely take Robert Quinn over Von Miller. Because these teams would make the intelligent move in taking the player 20 pounds heavier who owns the same speed and agility talents as Miller but also possesses the brute strength to bull rush a double team of the OG and OT and take them both on a ride to the QB.

 

If the Bills don't take Quinn, plan on seeing him in a Pats or Ravens uniform with the move up to get him being the talk of round 1. I could see Quinn as a Pat tormenting the Bills for the next 15 years, while Miller fizzles and Bills fans like you are left wondering why you bought into he was the next Clay Matthews even though he looks and plays like a safety.

[1billsfan]

This story could be pure poo poo, but do you really think anyone would go on record by name?

 

PTR

 

 

You've got to believe that draft talk of potential 1st round players between NFL reps and NFL media is like "Survivor" on steroids. In a game worth billions which is on this kind of grand scale and magnitude, it literally makes zero sense to talk up a player that you like or talk down a player you don't like. Someone should write a book on this subject because it would be highly entertaining.

 

The guy saying that he wouldn't take Quinn till the 3rd round absolutely loves him beyond belief and his team is probably sitting just outside the top 10 picks. He thinks this comment could get into the echo chamber of NFL draft talk and which could potentially lead Quinn to dropping a couple of spots to their pick. Third round? Biggest draft BS I've ever heard. Does this guy look and sound like a 3rd rounder?...

 

http://www.panthers.com/news/article-2/Quinn-vows-to-bounce-back-again/8cfd33ff-6307-48ad-b6cc-52b6219181f3

 

I also think that a lot of teams love Cam Newton. There has been just too much bad mouthing of this guy by anonymous NFL sources for that not to be the case.

[DrDawkinstein]

For those jumping on the "He's not too small" bandwagon I challenge you to look at ANY highlight video of Von Miller and tell me he's not a small LB. Here's one to get you started. youtube.com/watch?v=qoQII6vrPHE

 

If you can watch this video and tell me that's still the player you want the Bills to draft then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

Another great video showing how small Miller plays on the field. That's the problem, he's not a small guy that plays big. He's a small guy that plays small. I dont care what his actual weight is. He could technically weigh 275, for the way he plays on the field it's more like 225.

 

And of course the retort is "OOH, ONE video!". But its NOT just one video. It's that video, the Nebraska game, the other "highlight" reel posted in the Miller thread, etc...

 

ALL of his highlights are speed-rushing off the edge. There are a couple of clips of him stopping the run when he goes unblocked. There are a couple of him knocking down passes. Great. But not nearly enough to prove he is a COMPLETE player worthy of being drafted #3 overall.

 

There are simply too many question marks surrounding his ON FIELD game. You guys can stroke off to his combine numbers all you want. They mean JACK $#!T. I repeat: COMBINE NUMBERS DONT MEAN SQUAT ON THE FIELD.

 

Gimme a big, nasty DL at #3 who can help stop the run AND collapse the pocket.

 

Drafting Miller (an undersized OLB) is the equivalent of drafting Spiller (an undersized RB) last year. We're STILL ignoring the most important aspects of the game and building a team.

[dpberr]

Quinn hasn't played in a year and that's too much of a risk. Like his size and quickness, but a year of rust, especially in learning the game, is a big liability.

 

Von Miller played on a bad defense, and I think that helped elevate his numbers. He's a system linebacker like his A&M alum Coryatt. Miller's a good player, IMO, not a great player, and he's a project. He'll learn other moves and he'll work. You hope he'll add weight. He may be great three years from now.

 

I just don't think he's worthy of the #3 pick for the Bills. You want immediate impact, plug and play, at #3.

 

When talking about Miller, I think folks underestimate just how good offensive tackles in the NFL are, and how they eat up the lighter guys, regardless of how fast they may be.

[dave mcbride]

For those jumping on the "He's not too small" bandwagon I challenge you to look at ANY highlight video of Von Miller and tell me he's not a small LB. Here's one to get you started. youtube.com/watch?v=qoQII6vrPHE

 

If you can watch this video and tell me that's still the player you want the Bills to draft then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I must confess that I hate the argument tactic of posting youtube highlights and lowlights. If that were at all indicative, CJ Spiller would have had the best season in rookie history. Is there anyone here who watched most of the A & M games over the last two years? Or we are all just talking out of our a** based on a 2 minute highlight/lowlight reel? I mean, Payton Manning had a really bad game against Florida in his senior season (3 or 4 INTs in the first half). Today, the youtube clippers here would be rolling that out every other to day to justify their hostility toward drafting him.

 

Oh please! The Steelers, Pats AND Ravens would most definitely take Robert Quinn over Von Miller. Because these teams would make the intelligent move in taking the player 20 pounds heavier who owns the same speed and agility talents as Miller but also possesses the brute strength to bull rush a double team of the OG and OT and take them both on a ride to the QB.

 

If the Bills don't take Quinn, plan on seeing him in a Pats or Ravens uniform with the move up to get him being the talk of round 1. I could see Quinn as a Pat tormenting the Bills for the next 15 years, while Miller fizzles and Bills fans like you are left wondering why you bought into he was the next Clay Matthews even though he looks and plays like a safety.

You're sure of that, right? Man, you really sound like you're on a crusade.

Edited April 14, 2011 by dave mcbride

[Erik]

Quinn hasn't played in a year and that's too much of a risk. Like his size and quickness, but a year of rust, especially in learning the game, is a big liability.

 

Von Miller played on a bad defense, and I think that helped elevate his numbers. He's a system linebacker like his A&M alum Coryatt. Miller's a good player, IMO, not a great player, and he's a project. He'll learn other moves and he'll work. You hope he'll add weight. He may be great three years from now.

 

I just don't think he's worthy of the #3 pick for the Bills. You want immediate impact, plug and play, at #3.

 

When talking about Miller, I think folks underestimate just how good offensive tackles in the NFL are, and how they eat up the lighter guys, regardless of how fast they may be.

 

The question is if not Miller than who? Dareus will likely be off the board and if he isn't he'd likely be the pick anyway. Fairley has the same size and technique concerns as Miller does and he's got supposed attitude issues as well. Jordan might fit but is he really worth the #3 pick?

[DrDawkinstein]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I must confess that I hate the argument tactic of posting youtube highlights and lowlights. If that were at all indicative, CJ Spiller would have had the best season in rookie history. Is there anyone here who watched most of the A & M games over the last two years? Or we are all just talking out of our a** based on a 2 minute highlight/lowlight reel? I mean, Payton Manning had a really bad game against Florida in his senior season (3 or 4 INTs in the first half). Today, the youtube clippers here would be rolling that out every other to day to justify their hostility toward drafting him.

 

 

 

It's not that it's a video of a "bad game". He actually had a pretty good game against Nebraska... when you talk specifically about rushing the passer from the edge.

 

My point, and problem, is that when you watch his films it's all the same thing. He can have a good game, and many highlights getting at the passer. He has very little (almost none) showing him playing stout against the run. I caught only a few A&M games this year, and barely even noticed him since he was invisible against the run, and on passes he was either running WAY past the QB, or getting at him. But that's about it.

 

Again, Im not concentrating on his "bad games", Im looking for evidence of being a COMPLETE player, and not finding it.

[Cash]

Matthews weighed 240# at the 2009 Combine, compared to Miller who was 246#, and Miller blew away Matthews stats both in individual drills AND college production (Miller has over 7 times as many sacks as Matthews did). They're both the same height, and Matthews was able to get to 255#. Miller is already at 250#.

 

What does it all mean? Hard to know until Miller plays in the NFL.

 

Agreed. Miller fans love the Mathews comparison, but Mathews is himself undersized, and succeeds despite that. If Mathews hadn't been considered undersized, he would've been drafted higher. Sometimes undersized players do well in spite of their size, like Mathews. Sometimes undersized players don't do well because they're too small. It's hard to say for sure which way Miller will go until he actually gets in the NFL. I thought Buddy Nix's recent comments on Miller were interesting, where he talked about how Miller might play ILB on 1st and 2nd down. ILBs are generally smaller (and less valuable) than OLBs. I guarantee you that if Miller played at 260+ lbs. in college, Nix wouldn't be talking about whether he'd play OLB or ILB in the base defense.

 

Personally, I could live with Miller, because there's only one risk with him (size), and it's not necessarily a dealbreaker. But I don't see him improving the run D, don't see him playing more than half the snaps as a rookie if Merriman stays healthy, and I'd prefer either Dareus, who is a safer pick and fills a bigger need (and is much bigger!), or to roll the dice with the tremendous upside potential of either QB. (I actually don't like either QB, but if you want to get a franchise guy, you have to take a risk. Not even Peyton Manning was a sure thing.)

[DrDawkinstein]

The question is if not Miller than who? Dareus will likely be off the board and if he isn't he'd likely be the pick anyway. Fairley has the same size and technique concerns as Miller does and he's got supposed attitude issues as well. Jordan might fit but is he really worth the #3 pick?

 

Yes. Our list should look like:

Dareus

Fairley

Jordan

 

Maybe even Jordan above Fairley.

 

Trench players who even just play "well" have a huge impact on the team. No one thought Bulaga was worth picking at #9 last year, but he went on to be the starting OT for the Super Bowl Champs.

 

We MUST stop ignoring the trenches early.

 

Jordan at #3 could easily have a much bigger impact on the team, than a situational OLB.

[2003Contenders]

This ^. Anything published is misinformation, or spoken by folks just dying to get fired. Why would teams pay scouting departments dearly, only to give away the info for free? They are trying to game other teams into making choices that result in the outcomes favorable to them.

 

 

I don't know. These scouts tend to have decent size egos. They want to believe that they can make accurate predictions on how these players will pan out in the NFL, and given the promise of anonymity, I suspect that they would tell a gushing reporter the truth about how they really feel about a player. Moreover, writers who have been in the business long enough are pretty good at identifying when they are being leveled with and when they are being used to spread misinformation.

[LabattBlue]

At least with Von Miller we know what we get, I hope we get him.

You don't know what you are getting regardless of who you draft. There are no guarantees.

[Thoner7]

Man, every thread seems to turn into a Von Miller thread. Must be NGUs fault for saying thats who we were taking.

 

I hate everyone talking numbers. he was 237 at the Sr Bowl, 246 at the combine, 250 now… big whoop. He never played at those weights. Maybin skyrocketed to 250 too. I dont really care what his weight it. I dont care what his short shuttle was, or his vertical or anything. How did he play on the field?

 

IMO, he simply didnt hold up vrs college offensive lineman, or even college tight ends, for me to have any kind of confidence in him. This isnt because I watched 2 or 3 youtube clips, but because I watched complete games, v Texas in 09 and 10, v Nebraska, and the Cotton Bowl v LSU were I watched him exclusively while LSU was on O (I wasnt impressed with Peterson at all in that one either BTW) I didnt see him fight off any blocks while rushing the passer. If he didnt beat the OT flat out by a combination of speed and timing the snap he got zero pressure (this is where the Maybin comparison comes in, I saw the exact same thing with Maybin coming out which is why I knew yes knew he was a total bust before the draft) My point is, if you cannot at least compete physically with an offensive tackle, you simply will never beat him in the NFL. If that were not true, then super fast DBs like McKelvin would lead the league in sacks. But these guys cant beat an NFL LT around the corner to the QB, but slower guys like Jared Allen and Richard Seymour can. If you dont have a minimum threshold of physicality then you cannot generate a regular pass rush. I dont believe Miller is at that minimum threshold, and I am not taking him at 3 *hoping* he can get there.

 

Unlike Maybin, Miller is a much better athlete (not a straight line runner like Maybin) and is very good at diagnosing plays, where Maybin hasnt a clue. He is amazing in space, making very good open field tackles, one of the best I have seen at any level. I would also assume he would be good in pass coverage because of his natural abilities, although he was rarely asked to do it in college. But, he doesnt give 100% effort during games. People are scared off by Fairley for taking plays off (which I never really noticed) why arent they talking about Miller doing it? Thats a big red flag for me.

 

In my honest assessment of Miller, I would say he is not scheme diverse. Regardless of his weight, college stats, and combine numbers, I do not believe he projects to a good rush LB. I dont think he fits the 3-4 at all, because he cannot take on blockers or be a successful rusher because he lacks necessary physicality (again my assessment). If you cant do those two things then you shouldnt play in a 3-4 (which is what Nix has said they are drafting for long term) I dont think Miller projects to 4-3 SAM LB either because again I think he lacks physicality and the ability to take on blocks head on and turn runners back inside (a skill Ellison never figured out and one that Moats does very well). I also dont see him as a 4-3 MIKE because he doesnt naturally play down hill, or attack the LOS. Inside he would have to take on some blockers still, something I want to avoid with Miller.

 

I think he is a read and react type guy with great athleticism. When a blocker gets a hat on him I think he will be screwed. To me, his best position, and the only one he will be successful in, is a WILL LB in a 4-3. This is because this role, more than any other, will allow him to use his great attributes (athleticism, ability to diagnose plays, open field ability) and hide his major weaknesses (lack of physicality, inability to fight off blockers once engaged, and inability to hold up at the point of attack aka arm extensions, anchoring, whatever you want to call it). In this role he should have extra D lineman in front of him that majority of the time keeping lineman off of him, and will allow him to be a chase down LB rather than one who is in the scrum getting bowled over.

 

Ended up being a much longer post than I anticipated, but its just my honest assessment. I dont want to start any new arguments, I have had enough debating this guy, but hopefully other can see where I come from.

Edited April 14, 2011 by Thoner7

[dpberr]

The question is if not Miller than who? Dareus will likely be off the board and if he isn't he'd likely be the pick anyway. Fairley has the same size and technique concerns as Miller does and he's got supposed attitude issues as well. Jordan might fit but is he really worth the #3 pick?

 

Right now, it's between Dareus and Jordan for me. However, Jordan's versatility and experience in the 3-4 and his intangibles (smarts, work ethic especially) edge out over Dareus. I like that he has a year of 3-4 under his belt under Pendergast, formerly of the Cardinals, where he ran their pretty effective 3-4. Mix all that together, and Jordan starts Day #1.

[K-9]

"What do you think the hit ratio is on one-year wonders in the first round. We did the study over five years. It's not very good. What's scary is how many of them there are in this year's draft. I would not touch either of the two at Auburn that everyone is talking about. I hope they go early so that some good players fall to us."

 

Grain of salt notwithstanding, I found this to be the most interesting quote in the entire article. A five year study is a pretty good sample size. IMO, physical and mental maturity is more important in the NFL than in any other sport.

 

GO BILLS!!!