RJ, Losman, and now Trent....

[Bill from NYC]

RJ was the first pick of round 4, but we gave up the 9th pick of a draft for him, and a 4th rounder. JP cost us a 1st, 2nd and a 5th. Trent was a 3rd round pick. All 3 young QBs showed promise of one kind or another. Then, they all went down the tubes.

 

Was it coaching? Lack of pass protection? Lack of individual talent (it would not appear to be this factor wrt RJ and JP)? I guess we will never know what the biggest factor was, but I feel like speculating just for fun.

 

RJ and JP had very good arms, as well as the ability to run. Neither was good at making decisions, but this is where coaching would seem to matter. Trent, at his best, seemed to be very accurate and smart. He wasn't blessed with the pure talent of the other 2, but for a short while he was winning football games.

Below, I will list what imo was the primary factor in the demise of our 3 young QBs.:

 

RJ: He had it all in terms of talent, but he was 1 walking injury. Also, he didn't get rid of the football. If the Bills had blocking, would he have been able to manage games and be successful? Looking back, probably not. I just don't think he could have seen much success unless he was on a team like the early 90's Cowboys.

 

JP: Very talented as well, but I will always think that he was thrown in too soon. TD and MM were very angry about losing to Pitt, and seemed to blame Bledsoe. Now, Drew was finished, but JP needed more time to learn and perhaps make better decisions. Would it have worked? You tell me.

 

Trent: Like RJ, I thought the kid had much promise. Again, in hindsight, I don't think that he was physically able to do the job. I cringed every time he got hit, which was far too often. His body is too fragile for the NFL, or so it seems. The concussions were the icing on the cake.

 

In summary, while Trent needed to go (although I would have liked ANY draft pick), it sucks to see yet another promising QB go down the tubes. Obviously, we hope Nix/Gailey have better success with the next QB, and that they will draft players who are able to protect him.

 

I would like see opinions of what fellow posters think was the lead factor in terms of the failure of these 3 young QBs.

[Nanker]

Their problems are between their ears, and in their chest walls.

[eball]

Bill, at the end of the day, I think two of the three (RJ, Edwards) just didn't have the "fire" to be great QBs. They were content giving it "the ol' college try" but never had the passion to be great and will their teams to victory. Everybody at that level has talent -- it takes something else.

 

Losman is the one I'm most disappointed about, because he did have that fire but unfortunately made too many bad decisions. In retrospect, I wish he had been given another year behind Bledsoe and who knows what might have been.

 

C'est la vie.

[Meathead]

i am so proud

[BuffaloBud]

Everyone runs into bad luck at some point. Look at Cleveland. Some of it is how quickly you can see the problem and respond.

[BuffaloWings]

Bill, at the end of the day, I think two of the three (RJ, Edwards) just didn't have the "fire" to be great QBs. They were content giving it "the ol' college try" but never had the passion to be great and will their teams to victory. Everybody at that level has talent -- it takes something else.

 

Losman is the one I'm most disappointed about, because he did have that fire but unfortunately made too many bad decisions. In retrospect, I wish he had been given another year behind Bledsoe and who knows what might have been.

 

C'est la vie.

Agreed. I didn't think JP was ready at the end of 2004 and I thought one more year under Bledsoe would have been enough. Heck, even if Bledsoe started the 2005 season and JP took over halfway through, that would have been fine. But...hindsight being 20/20...JP probably wouldn't have cut it because of his decision-making.

 

To me, Trent's demise was simple - once he got knocked silly by Adrian Wilson, he got gun shy, lost all confidence, and was never able to get it back.

[Ozymandius]

I would go with lack of individual talent (and therefore poor scouting by the Bills). Hopefully the next QB they draft is a top 5 overall pick. They could still mess it up but I'm tired of developing lower-tier QBs. Let's go for the gold and see what happens.

[Beerball]

I would like see opinions of what fellow posters think was the lead factor in terms of the failure of these 3 young QBs.

IT comes down to what IT always comes down to when IT comes down to IT.

 

Of the 3 RJ was the most talented but he was brittle and lacked the ability to make quick decisions. He just couldn't do IT.

 

Next was JP. Cannon for an arm. Swagger you like to see in your QB but he just didn't have IT between the ears.

 

Finally Edwards. He may be more talented than JP, but he never showed IT. He didn't have confidence in his ability (and perhaps his WRs abilities as well) to make plays. He couldn't anticipate a receiver coming open. He couldn't throw a receiver open. He couldn't anticipate when the defense was bringing IT. He had the least of IT among these 3.

 

Blame the Bills talent evaluators for botching IT.

[Coach Tuesday]

It amazes me that most fans have no clue that there is something called "player development." It is different from player evaluation (scouting), and has to do with an organization's ability to develop the players it acquires through the draft and free agency. It absolutely exists (although it's understandable that Bills fans aren't familiar with the concept), and it's CRITICAL.

 

I don't have an answer to the OP's question. I do, however, believe strongly that if this organization drafted Aaron Rodgers, Brian Orapko, Clay Matthews, Sam Bradford, etc., there is an at least decent chance that those players would be regarded as "busts." I'm not saying Losman would've succeeded elsewhere - he probably wouldn't have. But Bills fans tend to act as though it's simply a matter of fixing our scouting and personnel department, and that things will turn themselves around if that were to happen. There is way more to it. This organization, with it's horrible, buzzard of an owner and its complete lack of quality coaching, conditioning, and accountability, is going to bungle the careers whomever it drafts.

 

Like someone else said, it doesn't even matter at this point what went wrong with Edwards (or JP, or RJ): what matters is that all of us fans are waiting patiently (sometimes impatiently) for a new owner. It's the only chance we have.

[Beerball]

It amazes me that most fans have no clue that there is something called "player development." It is different from player evaluation (scouting), and has to do with an organization's ability to develop the players it acquires through the draft and free agency. It absolutely exists (although it's understandable that Bills fans aren't familiar with the concept), and it's CRITICAL.

 

I don't have an answer to the OP's question. I do, however, believe strongly that if this organization drafted Aaron Rodgers, Brian Orapko, Clay Matthews, Sam Bradford, etc., there is an at least decent chance that those players would be regarded as "busts." I'm not saying Losman would've succeeded elsewhere - he probably wouldn't have. But Bills fans tend to act as though it's simply a matter of fixing our scouting and personnel department, and that things will turn themselves around if that were to happen. There is way more to it. This organization, with it's horrible, buzzard of an owner and its complete lack of quality coaching, conditioning, and accountability, is going to bungle the careers whomever it drafts.

 

Like someone else said, it doesn't even matter at this point what went wrong with Edwards (or JP, or RJ): what matters is that all of us fans are waiting patiently (sometimes impatiently) for a new owner. It's the only chance we have.

Maybe the question to ask yourself is...'did any of these busts go on to a productive career elsewhere?' Or, do you think that their time in Buffalo so scarred them that they had no chance to be successful in another organization?

[bigc14120]

RJ was the first pick of round 4, but we gave up the 9th pick of a draft for him, and a 4th rounder. JP cost us a 1st, 2nd and a 5th. Trent was a 3rd round pick. All 3 young QBs showed promise of one kind or another. Then, they all went down the tubes.

 

Was it coaching? Lack of pass protection? Lack of individual talent (it would not appear to be this factor wrt RJ and JP)? I guess we will never know what the biggest factor was, but I feel like speculating just for fun.

 

RJ and JP had very good arms, as well as the ability to run. Neither was good at making decisions, but this is where coaching would seem to matter. Trent, at his best, seemed to be very accurate and smart. He wasn't blessed with the pure talent of the other 2, but for a short while he was winning football games.

Below, I will list what imo was the primary factor in the demise of our 3 young QBs.:

 

RJ: He had it all in terms of talent, but he was 1 walking injury. Also, he didn't get rid of the football. If the Bills had blocking, would he have been able to manage games and be successful? Looking back, probably not. I just don't think he could have seen much success unless he was on a team like the early 90's Cowboys.

 

JP: Very talented as well, but I will always think that he was thrown in too soon. TD and MM were very angry about losing to Pitt, and seemed to blame Bledsoe. Now, Drew was finished, but JP needed more time to learn and perhaps make better decisions. Would it have worked? You tell me.

 

Trent: Like RJ, I thought the kid had much promise. Again, in hindsight, I don't think that he was physically able to do the job. I cringed every time he got hit, which was far too often. His body is too fragile for the NFL, or so it seems. The concussions were the icing on the cake.

 

In summary, while Trent needed to go (although I would have liked ANY draft pick), it sucks to see yet another promising QB go down the tubes. Obviously, we hope Nix/Gailey have better success with the next QB, and that they will draft players who are able to protect him.

 

I would like see opinions of what fellow posters think was the lead factor in terms of the failure of these 3 young QBs.

This about right....with the right coaching and situation, JP could have made it. Never played in a system designed for his talents....always a square peg in a round hole. And, his decision making was always the weak point in his game. But, he could air it out. Did not give anything away to Bledsoe on the arm strength. Bledsoe could have played another year...MM and Don..were way to impatient.

[Fan in Chicago]

I would like see opinions of what fellow posters think was the lead factor in terms of the failure of these 3 young QBs.

 

Well written post, Bill. I concur with your assessment of what transpired but I too struggle with why it happened.

My take is that RJ just had the physical tools and coaching would not have changed what he was missing. This is contrary to what happened with JP and Trent. I think both suffered from having too many coaches, put into the fray well before they were ready and had a woeful OL. Without these factors to hinder them, I think either of them would have been adequate QBs for us and a good coach would have covered up their inadequacies (slow thinking for JP and gun-shy nature of Trent).

I suppose we should take this argument back to when Todd Collins was drafted. Perhaps we should have developed him better and we wouldn't have been in this absolute disaster of a QB situation since Kelly. I am in favor of drafting a QB high a few years before your franchise QB is spent. As an example, I would think both the Pats* and Colts ought to be thinking replacements in the next 2 drafts. Groom a new one for 2-3 years when Brady and Manning are close to retirement. Which is what we should have done 2-3 years before the end of Kelly's career

Edited September 28, 2010 by Fan in Chicago

[Bill from NYC]

There are great posts in this thread. I will try not to beat a dead horse (for once lol), but I fully agree with those who say that the organization failed them.

 

JP was the only one of the three that I was "right" about, and look what happened to him in 2006. He was young and had a great arm, but he needed help, both in terms of his personal performance and an upgrade in offensive talent, especially up front. Now, look at the 06 draft. They provided him with absolutely no help, and paid approx. 73 million dollars for 2 horrible blockers.

 

In the 10 draft they went primarily defense (after Spiller). Despite their limited production to this point, I hope for some production from these kids. The next draft needs to be devoted to offense, to include a QB and a pair of NFL caliber OTs. Imo, Nix/Gailey have far more credibility than Levy/Mauron, but they will need Ralph to let them do their jobs.

 

Time will tell.

[jonramz]

RJ and JP did not have the football smarts, Trent did but Adrian Wilson took care of him

 

Give Kelly Holcomb or Fitz any of those guys physical talents and you'd have a fantastic QB

[Jerry Jabber]

RJ was good at coming off the bench and playing great for one game. RJ could never play good for two games in a row. Being a franchise QB, you have to be a leader and show some fire, RJ showed neither.

 

Losman was thrown in way too quickly in 2005, then flip-flopped with Holcomb. Losman was horribly mismanaged to begin with. While he was great at the deep ball, his short to intermediate game was terrible. While Edwards short to intermediate game was good, he seemed to be gun shy and skittish after the Adrian Wilson hit.

 

If the Bills do draft a QB in the first round this year, they need to make sure it's not a Leaf, Russell, Carrington or Carr type QB (along with a Losman, Johnson or Edwards). They have to get it right this time.

[Albany,n.y.]

Rob Johnson's problem was always hanging onto the ball too long, which sooner or later results in injuries. The longer you hold onto the ball, the more you get hit. The week we acquired him I was originally against it because I noticed in his scouting reports & in his stats that he took way too many sacks, in fact, that week I started a post and titled it "Rob Johnson, the sacked man" Unfortunately I bought what Butler said & supported him. It turned out my original assessment was accurate.

 

JP Losman's problems were he never had a feel for the game, couldn't read defenses and made too many stupid mistakes. Even when he played in the UFL against inferior competition, the same mental mistakes occurred. In the UFL he could hide them better because the game wasn't quite NFL speed. The fact he has now been jettisoned by 2 more NFL teams, confirms that he never had the ability to be a long term starter in the NFL.

 

Trent Edwards just didn't have the courage to play QB in the NFL. I don't know whether it was from too many hits in college and the pros, which like Rob resulted in far too many injuries, or whether it was the concussion(s) that made him too fearful to be an NFL QB. It was obvious by the end of last season that, at best, Edwards was only a major reclamation project. I gave up on him last year when he replaced Fitzpatrick in his 2009 final appearance & immediately got injured again. Then once again with the preseason I gained hope, but I really knew he was just one of 3 backup QBs and it soon became apparent that Fitzpatrick is better than him.

 

I think the major problem was scouting, not coaching. Good QBs don't get ruined by mediocre coaches. The Bills scouts liked QBs with major flaws in their games. It doesn't help a guy playing for different coordinators & QB coaches, but at the same time, it doesn't hurt them nearly as much as people think. If that was the case, then when JP was working with Fassel, Fassel would have saved him. In the end it was the same old JP, not damaged by Mularkey & Jauron, but just not good enough to begin with. Rob Johnson had some good coaching in Jacksonville before he came here and he still wasn't any good. You could tell Edwards anything you wanted on the sidelines & practice, but no coach could coach out the fear years of getting hit instilled in him.

[Van_phelaN1]

IMO I don't think any of those guys wanted to win bad enough. Kelly was a gamer, he was super competitive, Flutie (although had his issues as well) always played with a chip on his shoulder, like he had something to prove. I feel like Trent Edwards was just happy to be in the position to be playing and played not to lose his job. It is too bad that a guy like Tim Tebow can have all the fire and leadership potential only to be hampered by his talent level. You just flat out can not coach the "it" factor. Either you leave your heart on the field or you are just there for a paycheck. Trent is a really nice guy, and he has been released. Tom Brady comes off as an arrogant piece of trash, but he has super bowl rings. Draw your own conclusions.

[dave mcbride]

RJ was the first pick of round 4, but we gave up the 9th pick of a draft for him, and a 4th rounder. JP cost us a 1st, 2nd and a 5th. Trent was a 3rd round pick. All 3 young QBs showed promise of one kind or another. Then, they all went down the tubes.

 

Was it coaching? Lack of pass protection? Lack of individual talent (it would not appear to be this factor wrt RJ and JP)? I guess we will never know what the biggest factor was, but I feel like speculating just for fun.

 

RJ and JP had very good arms, as well as the ability to run. Neither was good at making decisions, but this is where coaching would seem to matter. Trent, at his best, seemed to be very accurate and smart. He wasn't blessed with the pure talent of the other 2, but for a short while he was winning football games.

Below, I will list what imo was the primary factor in the demise of our 3 young QBs.:

 

RJ: He had it all in terms of talent, but he was 1 walking injury. Also, he didn't get rid of the football. If the Bills had blocking, would he have been able to manage games and be successful? Looking back, probably not. I just don't think he could have seen much success unless he was on a team like the early 90's Cowboys.

 

JP: Very talented as well, but I will always think that he was thrown in too soon. TD and MM were very angry about losing to Pitt, and seemed to blame Bledsoe. Now, Drew was finished, but JP needed more time to learn and perhaps make better decisions. Would it have worked? You tell me.

 

Trent: Like RJ, I thought the kid had much promise. Again, in hindsight, I don't think that he was physically able to do the job. I cringed every time he got hit, which was far too often. His body is too fragile for the NFL, or so it seems. The concussions were the icing on the cake.

 

In summary, while Trent needed to go (although I would have liked ANY draft pick), it sucks to see yet another promising QB go down the tubes. Obviously, we hope Nix/Gailey have better success with the next QB, and that they will draft players who are able to protect him.

 

I would like see opinions of what fellow posters think was the lead factor in terms of the failure of these 3 young QBs.

 

I honestly don't think that it was the concussion in AZ that damaged him. I truly believe that the Cleveland Monday night game - in which he threw 3 first quarter INTs - destroyed him. That's the game he became Captain Checkdown. Recall that he had his best game as a pro (against a good team) the week he came back from the concussion.

[Ray]

It's very easy...they were all BAD QBs. That is why none of them ever did anything of substance in the NFL. They were horrible for the Bills and horrible for their other teams. It was NOT the Bills have a bad OL, WRs don't get open, the OC is bad, blah, blah, blah.....

If the guys were any good they would have played in the NFL again and done something. They haven't and won't. It is that simple!

D Jauron did not ruin Trent. He is just not a good QB in the NFL.

[bartshan-83]

I don't think it's nearly as black and white as some people want to make it ("He just sucked" or "He never had a chance").

 

RJ:

I really wanted him to be the man. I agree that he just never had the right feel for the game and his mistakes were drive killers (just like JP). But I strongly disagree with those who said he had no heart. He lost his job due to injury and stayed ready for 2 years for another chance. He played tough in the playoffs and he played tough in 2000 when he got the starting nod. I was at the home opener "rematch" against Tennessee that year. His stats weren't great, but he played a hard game and gutted it out. That year he had more injury problems and Flutie came in and out. But I'll never forget his last win against KC. It took the Bills to 7-4. RJ scored the winning TD on a 12 yard run where he got absolutely layed out. For those who say he never had heart, you are just being bitter. The dude put his body out there all the time and, due to his own fault, took more hits than any Bills QB I can remember. He just never had the flow. I do think the wheels fell off the following week at Tampa Bay (the "Frank Middleton" game) and otherwise, that could have been a playoff team. That was also the infamous "Neither team has a chance" season when Wade basically wrote off the 6-7 Bills and Colts before their game. Colts dominated, finished with 3 wins and made the playoffs. The rest is history. What a decade it's been.

 

JP:

Seemed like he might just have had enough fire and physical talent to mask his faults. His 2006 season is by far the best QB season we've had since and probably 2nd best of the decade only to Bledsoe's 2002. He had some great performances and threw some of the prettiest bombs I've ever seen. The back to back Texans and Jaguars games of 2006 were the last two really great Bills games, IMO. The endings of those games were the last times any Bills QB stepped up in a big moment and willed a victory. The drive against Houston culminating with the TD to Price in back of the endzone and the drive against JAX the next week where JP hit Roscoe on that GORGEOUS out pattern (definitely the best catch of Parrish's career). Those two games made me believe JP was finally going to turn the corner. But it didn't last. He never quite got a hold on reading defenses and the mistakes he made outweighed his moments of brilliance. While he never salvaged his game elsewhere, I think the mismanagement of his career at the hands of our coaches and front office would have killed all but the strongest talents. He was probably never going to be a superstar, but the right coaching could have turned him into a playoff QB I think. And the wrong coaching (and I can't think of one single thing they did right with him) squandered what little chance he had to be successful and scarred him forever. I really believe that.

 

Trent:

I was most skeptical of him of the three, but by the end, had the highest hopes for him. I blast anyone who attacks RJ or JPs heart, but I can't say that I could defend Trent on that count here. The coaching has been terrible. The surrounding talent has been marginal. But something happened to him (or he only masked it occaisonally during his periods of success) and it goes beyond Xs and Os. I believe his problem is confidence and possibly lack of desire. But definitely confidence. Either:

 

(A) He is not confident enough in his arm to make NFL throws down the field or

(B) He does not understand what "open" is in the NFL

 

Evans is basically a one-trick pony and we've had precious little besides him. But guys are open on almost every play, every game in the NFL. "Open" means a 6-inch window oftentimes. "Open" means the guy is covered and hasn't turned yet but you trust he will get to his spot when you let go. I think Trent never got that feel and, in that way, he was no cerebral-superior to the two other guys on this list that are blasted for being too "dumb" to be QB.

 

 

Either way, yesterday marked the official end of 4 consecutive "High Hopes QB" careers in Buffalo. I think it naive to say that it is simply a matter of talent. The organization (from top to bottom) has always had its issues. But I also don't think that any of these guys were individually good enough to succeed without some good fortune or good help. Unfortunately, all three received neither.

 

Let's hope 2011 breaks that cycle. But be mindful that whether Andrew Luck, Ryan Mallett, Jake Locker or Drew Brees comes to Orchard Park next year, it's not always 100% on the guy with the green sticker on his helmet.

Edited September 28, 2010 by bartshan-83