Death by firing squad

[The Dean]

Okay, I'm just going to work logically here. I have no expertise in this area.

 

In the event of a "humane" execution, I guess one would aim for the heart because the thorax is a bigger target, and there are lot more vital organs to hit. You're going to "win". And the rib cage is going to contain the explosion. Less messy.

 

I understand that, and I believe you are correct. But if the guillotine is cruel because the head stays alive (an issue which I think is far more complicated than observing activity in the head), why wouldn't the head also stay active after a shot to the heart?

 

Doc offers the "blunt force trauma" explanation. But wouldn't the enormously heavy blade also cause plenty of trauma?

 

For the record, I am not arguing one way or the other, just trying to understand, really. But I'm not sure some nerve reactions from a head are any proof of consciousness. Hell people who are dead can have perceptible movement.

[Doc]

I understand that, and I believe you are correct. But if the guillotine is cruel because the head stays alive (an issue which I think is far more complicated than observing activity in the head), why wouldn't the head also stay active after a shot to the heart?

 

Doc offers the "blunt force trauma" explanation. But wouldn't the enormously heavy blade also cause plenty of trauma?

 

For the record, I am not arguing one way or the other, just trying to understand, really. But I'm not sure some nerve reactions from a head are any proof of consciousness. Hell people who are dead can have perceptible movement.

It's not the heaviness of the blade; it's the razor sharpness, cutting cleanly through and producing minimal tissue damage and trauma (outside of the act of decapitating someone).

[The Dean]

It's not the heaviness of the blade; it's the razor sharpness, cutting cleanly through and producing minimal tissue damage and trauma (outside of the act of decapitating someone).

 

But the blade IS heavy I think, and coming down with a good bit of force. I find it hard to believe the brain can survive the brutal beheading force, but can't take a few bullets to the chest. After all, we are only taking about 15 seconds or so, according to some claims. But what the hell do I know.

[Whites Bay]

I understand that, and I believe you are correct. But if the guillotine is cruel because the head stays alive (an issue which I think is far more complicated than observing activity in the head), why wouldn't the head also stay active after a shot to the heart?

 

Doc offers the "blunt force trauma" explanation. But wouldn't the enormously heavy blade also cause plenty of trauma?

 

For the record, I am not arguing one way or the other, just trying to understand, really. But I'm not sure some nerve reactions from a head are any proof of consciousness. Hell people who are dead can have perceptible movement.

 

As for your last comment, I can concur, because I work with several of them. Many are employed higher on the food chain than am I.

 

This thread, is, of course, beginning to creep me out. That having been said, there is a logical argument to be hashed out, and goddamn it, we're going to do it.

 

Here's the gig. At the end of the game, we're talking about oxygen consumption by the brain. Let's not dance around the issue. Lose O2 to the attic, and everything else is as useless as talking about the Bills pass rush. Guillotining is going to be sudden and complete, and will leave upwards of (I don't know) a litre of blood in the cerebral vasculature. There is a lot of oxygen in that blood. It's going to feed brain cells, and those cells are going to function happily until there is no more oxygen. What will that INTACT brain be thinking for those XX seconds while the air supply runs out? Well, isn't THAT the stuff of nightmares? Let's all hope he/she/we had a good life, and let's grab some popcorn and watch the show.

 

Let's choose Door Number Two. Death by firing squad. I'm guessing - just guessing, Dean - that this is going to be quicker, by nature of the delivery of the "blunt" trauma. It's not really blunt upon entry, of course. A 0.30 calibre slug, by definition, will be one-third of an inch upon impact. Since they're rifled, they don't stay one-third of an inch for very long, because they're spinning at some ridiculous rate, and when they hit the cranium, they encounter friction, and begin to splay outwards. A million years ago, my father shot a moose in Newfoundland with a .3006, and was able to recover the slug when the animal was butchered (side note - we ate moose for a long, long time). The projectile had expanded from a little over three-tenths of an inch to about an inch in diameter.

 

Think about that. An INCH in diameter. I wouldn't want that in MY head. Now add four more of those holes (because they shoot 5 shots, with one blank). That's REALLY going to mess up the circulation. You're just not going to be able to move blood around the vascular bed that is the brain with five (5) one-inch holes drilled throughout. It's a nice thought, but it's not going to work. Things are going to short out pretty quickly.

 

Guess I've pretty much beat this horse to death.

 

"Starman" - David Bowie

[The Dean]

As for your last comment, I can concur, because I work with several of them. Many are employed higher on the food chain than am I.

 

This thread, is, of course, beginning to creep me out. That having been said, there is a logical argument to be hashed out, and goddamn it, we're going to do it.

 

Here's the gig. At the end of the game, we're talking about oxygen consumption by the brain. Let's not dance around the issue. Lose O2 to the attic, and everything else is as useless as talking about the Bills pass rush. Guillotining is going to be sudden and complete, and will leave upwards of (I don't know) a litre of blood in the cerebral vasculature. There is a lot of oxygen in that blood. It's going to feed brain cells, and those cells are going to function happily until there is no more oxygen. What will that INTACT brain be thinking for those XX seconds while the air supply runs out? Well, isn't THAT the stuff of nightmares? Let's all hope he/she/we had a good life, and let's grab some popcorn and watch the show.

 

Let's choose Door Number Two. Death by firing squad. I'm guessing - just guessing, Dean - that this is going to be quicker, by nature of the delivery of the "blunt" trauma. It's not really blunt upon entry, of course. A 0.30 calibre slug, by definition, will be one-third of an inch upon impact. Since they're rifled, they don't stay one-third of an inch for very long, because they're spinning at some ridiculous rate, and when they hit the cranium, they encounter friction, and begin to splay outwards. A million years ago, my father shot a moose in Newfoundland with a .3006, and was able to recover the slug when the animal was butchered (side note - we ate moose for a long, long time). The projectile had expanded from a little over three-tenths of an inch to about an inch in diameter.

 

Think about that. An INCH in diameter. I wouldn't want that in MY head. Now add four more of those holes (because they shoot 5 shots, with one blank). That's REALLY going to mess up the circulation. You're just not going to be able to move blood around the vascular bed that is the brain with five (5) one-inch holes drilled throughout. It's a nice thought, but it's not going to work. Things are going to short out pretty quickly.

 

Guess I've pretty much beat this horse to death.

 

"Starman" - David Bowie

 

 

This is all terrific stuff, Mr Bay. I really enjoy your open mind and convivial conversational manner.

 

My issue with your wonderful explanation is you refer to gunshots to the HEAD. It has already been established that firing squads don't shoot the head. They shoot the chest...so there is NO impact on the cranium. Now, simply shooting from my gut (so to speak) I have to believe the brain would lose more blood, more quickly, if it were severed from the body, than from gunshots to the chest.

 

This really is some gruesome stuff, I give you that.

[Whites Bay]

This is all terrific stuff, Mr Bay. I really enjoy your open mind and convivial conversational manner.

 

My issue with your wonderful explanation is you refer to gunshots to the HEAD. It has already been established that firing squads don't shoot the head. They shoot the chest...so there is NO impact on the cranium. Now, simply shooting from my gut (so to speak) I have to believe the brain would lose more blood, more quickly, if it were severed from the body, than from gunshots to the chest.

 

This really is some gruesome stuff, I give you that.

 

You're right. I've gone off on a tangent, and need to throw up. I'll be back when we talk about puppies.

 

Oh, wait. I hate dogs. And kids...

[Sig1Hunter]

My top three reasons for shooting the heart and not the head:

 

1) tradition

2) though people have a predisposition against killing another, blowing someone's brains out has a much less humane feel to it - even though there is no real difference. Shooting someone in the face/head is psychologically tougher. The face is how we typically recognize humanity. The head/brain are also typically viewed as the seat of the soul and mind.

3) it saves the brain of a madman for scientific study.

 

From my understanding, a well placed shot to the heart, exploding it on impact, has the same effect as a well placed shot to the brain stem: immediate deanimation.

[McBeane]

My top three reasons for shooting the heart and not the head:

 

1) tradition

2) though people have a predisposition against killing another, blowing someone's brains out has a much less humane feel to it - even though there is no real difference. Shooting someone in the face/head is psychologically tougher. The face is how we typically recognize humanity. The head/brain are also typically viewed as the seat of the soul and mind.

3) it saves the brain of a madman for scientific study.

 

From my understanding, a well placed shot to the heart, exploding it on impact, has the same effect as a well placed shot to the brain stem: immediate deanimation.

 

Number 3 is a great point. While I don't know if this is actually done or not, it seems like it would be a huge help to understanding how these psychopaths function. They obviously have abnormal minds, and studying those minds could only produce positive results.

[The Tomcat]

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/201...quad.cnn?hpt=T1

 

 

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/201...quad.cnn?hpt=T1

 

"I've shot squirrels I feel worse about. There's just some people that need to get kicked off the planet" says a cop who was involved in the last firing squad in Utah.

 

 

I'm all for it. Bring back hanging as well. Show it on closed circuit to all the inmates and put it on pay per view. You can't tell me people wouldn't get together for a kegger and a show afterwords. $9.95 an event. It would make millions. Again for the record, I'm NOT being sarcastic.

[Nanker]

I'm with The Dean on this one.

Hard to believe the massive drop in blood pressure via the guillotine would be much different (with respect to residual blood/oxygen/consciousness retained in the brain) than the same via the sudden forceful eliminating of the blood pump through the chest wall.

If Louis XVI could lick his chops one last time while is head was held aloft and brandished to the crowd, seems quite plausible that this creep would have a few last seconds of naked lunch to reflect on his rapidly fading worthless life stream.

 

Hey Nineteen

[Jim in Anchorage]

I seen many a animal run 200-300 yards with its heart shot out completely. Only a brain/spine shot puts them down instantly. So regards the topic at hand, yes there probably is a moment or two of life after the shots.

[thebug]

The idea is to kill them. Why do we care if they live for a couple extra seconds? Did they care about others when they committed their crimes? Just sayin.

[Corp000085]

Military and police training protocols are to aim for the chest. Bigger target, less chance for "error". If I were going to go though, I'd be guillotined. It's a clean wound, it makes for a great show, and there's that small chance that I'd have conscious thought for a few seconds after impact. When push comes to shove, I would want to "survive" for as long as possible, even if it were for only 5-20 seconds.

[Sig1Hunter]

The idea is to kill them. Why do we care if they live for a couple extra seconds? Did they care about others when they committed their crimes? Just sayin.

 

We may not care, but some people take that cruel and unusual punishment part of the Constitution literally!

[Wacka]

We may not care, but some people take that cruel and unusual punishment part of the Constitution literally!

 

F'em!

[Just Jack]

We may not care, but some people take that cruel and unusual punishment part of the Constitution literally!

Ok, I'll say it.....

 

just like their victims?

 

Quick show of hands, how many people searched for and/or saw that reporter beheading years ago, or Sadams hanging video?

 

I did

 

So the whole PPV idea would get some people to buy, if they keep the price low, someone mentioned $9.95 earlier. Anymore than that I don't think would be worth it.

[Sig1Hunter]

Ok, I'll say it.....

 

just like their victims?

You're preachin' to the choir, JJ. I was just saying that I think that it is rationale behind it.

[el Tigre]

Ok, I'll say it.....

 

just like their victims?

 

Quick show of hands, how many people searched for and/or saw that reporter beheading years ago, or Sadams hanging video?

 

I did

 

So the whole PPV idea would get some people to buy, if they keep the price low, someone mentioned $9.95 earlier. Anymore than that I don't think would be worth it.

I agree it would probly sell,but anybody who would pay to see it is sick in the head. Just my opinion.

[DC Tom]

I seen many a animal run 200-300 yards with its heart shot out completely. Only a brain/spine shot puts them down instantly. So regards the topic at hand, yes there probably is a moment or two of life after the shots.

 

There's more to it than just "how damaged is the heart", though. People with aortic aneurysms die immediately (or close enough that the difference is indistinguishable). The difference is usually stress and adrenaline - I've heard of the effect you mention in animals, when the first shot isn't clean and their adreneline's WAY the hell up. I'd have to believe that roughly the same effect would be seen in an execution victim; it's not exactly a low-stress moment.

 

 

Quick show of hands, how many people searched for and/or saw that reporter beheading years ago, or Sadams hanging video?

 

I did. I regret it. I wouldn't willingly watch anything like that again.

[GaryPinC]

I understand that, and I believe you are correct. But if the guillotine is cruel because the head stays alive (an issue which I think is far more complicated than observing activity in the head), why wouldn't the head also stay active after a shot to the heart?

 

Doc offers the "blunt force trauma" explanation. But wouldn't the enormously heavy blade also cause plenty of trauma?

 

For the record, I am not arguing one way or the other, just trying to understand, really. But I'm not sure some nerve reactions from a head are any proof of consciousness. Hell people who are dead can have perceptible movement.

 

 

Your second-last sentence plays a large part in all this IMO. You've all heard the expression "running around like a chicken with its head cut off", well early in my career I got to witness this phenominon with rodents. While the bodies of these headless animals thrashed about and a couple actually looked like they were jumping around when set on a flat surface, all of this seemed to be a simple random and complete firing of stored nervous action potentials (impulses). It always seemed that once the brain was separated this happened almost immediately. I suspect something similar happens with the head involving jaw and eye muscles, but who knows. It would be interesting (though an inhumane experiment) to do EEG monitoring of decapitated heads and see if the electrograms are organized enough to be considered brain wave patterns or if they are just random firings.

 

Never seen any data on that but it would certainly help answer this question. I suspect it's random firings in the decapitated head but who knows?