Kirby Jackson

I like Palmer, Moore and Samuel. Gabe has been a more productive NFL receiver than all 3. Coleman of 2024 is a worse player than Gabe Davis or 2022 & 2023. Again, I’m not advocating for or against Gabe but there is nothing to support that those guys are better than him at this point other than hope. It’s fine to be optimistic but to be like, “we don’t need Gabe because we have Josh Palmer & Elijah Moore” is crazy.

The other thing to think about with Davis is that his contract had offset language. That means he will be playing for league minimum. I don’t think that they have any WRs that they can cut and gain savings. Either way, Gabe is vet minimum. That will be important for whomever picks him up. He will almost certainly play for a contender for that reason. If he’s making the minimum no matter where he is, why wouldn’t he go to a contender that offers him the best opportunity?

Are we sure that they are all better or is that just because they are current Bills? Shakir is the only one that I’m sure is a better receiver than Gabe. Gabe is obviously limited but what he does is what they’re missing. I’m not advocating for or against Gabe. He’s a role player. The point is 4 of the 5 Bills receivers are roles players. The 5th is also a role player, he just happens to be top 5-10 at his role in the league.

They have asked the league to protect the Bills and Packers. I know that with 100% certainty. I do not know if the league always abides by that or just usually. I would be really surprised though if the league told the Steelers to pound sand. Those games are a draw regardless of who is there. When I was in the NBA the way that scheduling worked is that you got a certain amount of “vetoes” that they abided by. For example, the Pelicans never play home games from Thursday-Tuesday of Mardi Gras week. It would be a logistical nightmare so they go on the road. If I remember correctly, we could also make certain “requests” like “we would like to play a home game, in the afternoon, on MLK.”

I don’t hate it for the Bills. That’s what I was asking about. The problem, from their standpoint, is what do you do with him? You can’t pay him in the range of what Garrett got. He potentially cripples a cap if he’s done or about done. He’s a UFA after this year and will be 31 with lots of injuries. It’s a tricky situation.

I’ve always been on the belief that you want higher rows in the lower level and lower rows in the upper level.

FWIW, I have a very close friend at the Steelers as some of you know. I talked to him a couple of weeks ago on a few things. He thinks Watt is about to fall off a cliff and if they could get a 2nd, they should jump at it. This was before the draft and I’d imagine he’s even more emboldened.

I think Moore caught a lot of balls but not for a lot of yards. I think that he gets open better than most on the Bills. He also can get down the field even though he hasn’t been used to do that much in the NFL. He to me, feels like a guy that will be better in a Bills uniform than before. Disclaimer: I was a fan of his coming out so I’m sure some of my feelings are still driven by that.

Shakir Kincaid Moore Palmer Samuel Coleman Knox I did it in tiers and there is some movement within there (or could be). Shakir is the one guy that I think is “safe” so I put him in his own tier. He doesn’t have the highest ceiling but absolutely has the highest floor. He’s a really solid slot. He’s prime Beasley but better after the catch. Kincaid has been a disappointment. Joe Marino this morning went through a whole bunch of stats that should make us optimistic about a bounce back. He has the highest ceiling. Moore is a solid receiver and Palmer is too. They are both nice fits. They are pretty high floors with ceilings that are higher than where they have gotten to. Samuel is a good playmaker. He’s good with the ball in his hands but not a great WR. He’s a slash and should be much better this year. His ceiling is higher than most of these guys. The best version of Samuel is better than everyone but Shakir and Kincaid. Coleman has a high ceiling but a low floor. The end of the year for him was atrocious. I realize that he was coming off an injury but he’s never open. It’s tough to ever be more than a role player if every ball thrown your way is 50/50. If he develops his route running and stops looking for contact, he can be a weapon. Knox always feels like he deserves a larger target share but for some reason never sees it. He has a nose for the end zone and is good after the catch. He’s a role player but a quality one. If you had a name to insert above Shakir, BTJ or Ladd, for example, how much better would this group look? That’s the past though. The group has a lot of role players and they offer different skill sets. Hopefully it is enough. If it isn’t, I’m fine pulling the trigger mid season again to get a guy (maybe Olave).

If this was before Moore, I would have said it was a no brainer. Gabe can stretch the field even if he’s limited. I could see him coming back but will they keep 6 WRs or is a move on the horizon? For example, do they trade Samuel or even Keon? I highly doubt Keon but that’s not impossible (especially if they question his work ethic). Samuel would be the logical choice to be dealt if they wanted Gabe back. I’m going to guess though that Gabe ends up somewhere else. Ravens maybe? Cardinals?

They are working on stacking picks. This article is before the 3rd for Pickens: https://steelerswire.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/steelers/2025/05/02/2026-nfl-draft-steelers-updated-pick-projections-for-next-year/83408057007/. They can use those 3rds and 4ths to move up the board. Maybe they can get 2 2nds and still have a 3rd. Their own first, which could be early, 2 2nds and a 3rd may be enough for them to move up and secure their QB in a much better QB class. I suspect that they get a 2 and a little more for Watt. My buddy is there and thinks they should get whatever they can for Watt. He thinks he’s about to fall off a cliff.

I see a lot of people on Walker. He would be the opposite for me. At this point, he’s a lot of traits and not a very good football player. He’s a long term shot IMO. With that being said, TJ Sanders is a bit of the opposite. He’s a guy that scouts were higher on than talking heads. I always like those guys. He has a ton of skill and is a really good football player. I would not, at all, be surprised if he and Ed get a lot more pressure in the middle than we are accustomed to. Some other guys to watch out for: healthy Bosa, developing Solomon, and an under-the-radar Forest. Personally, I think that the safeties aren’t very good. Rapp is an okay starter and Bishop looked lost. Obviously, he will be given a chance to develop but Forest could pass either/both on the depth chart.

Interesting thought. You’re probably right. I can’t imagine that this would be something Rodgers wanted. The trade is an interesting one. Pickens has all kinds of ability but is an idiot. He’s an explosive playmaker that has played with 🗑️ QBs and voiced his frustration. We will see how it works in Dallas. Dak is much better than what Pickens has played with but so is Lamb. They’re either going to have an incredible passing game or it’s going to go up in flames. 🤣🤣

It’s a very fair question. There is no easy answer but it’s probably a little of both. The difference was so extreme that it’s not just coincidence. That may be a part of it but the offense was clearly much better with him. The triangle is a great analogy. The answer is TBD. I was obsessed with those 90’s Bulls teams. IMO, they don’t have a Pippen but have some of the other roles filled around Jordan. The OL is sort of Grant / Rodman doing the dirty work to help make it go. Kincaid to me is like Paxton / Kerr in that he can be a quality role player but rarely take over a game. Cook is a little like Kukoc in that he has a lot of ability but will never be the focus of the team. The receivers kind of remind me of Cartwright/Wennigton/Longley. They are the least talented of the starters but have a role. They’re never taking over a game but if they go out there and have 9 points and 6 rebounds they haven’t been a liability. Those Bulls teams would have won a lot of games because of Jordan. Would they have won all of those championships without Pippen? Shakir is the one sort of exception and he is somewhere between the BJ Armstrong and Paxson / Kerr. He’s the 3rd or 4th scoring option on a good team. Shakir is to the Bills what Jrue Holiday is to the Celtics offensively. To answer your initial question, I’d say something like 65% Cooper’s presence, 20% coincidence and 15% his production. Obviously, that’s subjective but to try to quantify it, that’s what I have. The Bills faced the 3rd least 2 deep in the NFL last year. I haven’t seen the breakdown by game, but I will bet my life, that they saw way more 2 deep in the games that he played vs. didn’t.

I pride myself on being honest and using numbers to support my argument. With that being said, I guess that we should look at the offensive numbers with Cooper and without to confirm what I said was true. I threw out the last New England game completely so as to not alter anything. There were exactly 8 other regular season games with him playing and 8 without him playing. In the 8 games that Cooper played, the Bills threw for 264.4 yards per game and scored 35.5 PPG. In the 8 games that Cooper did not play, the Bills threw for 203.6 yards per game and scored 28.1 PPG. For those of you that don’t think that 7.4 PPG difference is significant, the Bills finished 2nd in the NFL at 30.6 PPG. If you subtracted 7.4 PPG and were at 23.2 PPG they would have finished 12th. Don’t let people try to put their feelings in the way of facts. There they are. Do with them what you will…

Please go ahead and google the numbers before and after Cooper arrived. The numbers aren’t up for debate. Beane or McDermott talked about it last week. It was multiple PPG points and the passing game increased. My “assumptions” are based on facts and numbers. Using Cooper’s stats to debate the results is ridiculous. As I’ve now said to you 58 times in this thread, it isn’t just about what the player does!! It is also about how their presecence impacts coverage. I really don’t want to dig up the offensive numbers with and without Cooper. I’d prefer if you looked yourself or took my word for it. What you will find though is that they were way more effective once he got here for whatever reason.

The question ultimately becomes, “is what they did last year during the regular season sustainable?” The offense worked well until it didn’t. They didn’t have enough juice to get the score when they needed it. Their passing game regressed significantly but it was enough in the regular season. The OL was incredible as was Josh. They set a record for lowest negative plays ever. If that regresses to the mean, can they overcome it? We look at last year’s results and, if we are simple, can say it worked. If we look at all of the underlying reasons that it worked, is it reasonable to expect that again? p.s. The numbers were WAY better after the Amari acquisition.

This is a fun offseason thread!! You did a really nice job with it. The time between the draft and camp can be so slow. This was a nice break.

It’s just funny because it’s pretty much the same for all new stadiums. Everytime another team is about to build a stadium their fans expect them to be an exception. 🤣🤣

I wouldn’t say automatic loss but we looked like we might have been dominated in that game. Things can change over the course of a game but it certainly wasn’t a good start.

I actually was referring more to the Bengals when I said the Bills haven’t looked good against them. It was a little confusing the way that it was written. They’ve been a weird matchup for some reason.

I think that the worst matchups are Baltimore and Cincy. I don’t know why the Bills just don’t look great against them. I voted KC because McDermott hasn’t figured out how to stop them when it matters.

You’d say above average? You’d say, that there are 16 teams that have a worse WR room? I’d be interested to see the 16. I came up with Raiders and then there are 3 or 4 more in the same area.

Lol, both Beane AND McDermott said after the year that they needed to be able to stretch the field vertically. Maybe you’re listening to different press conferences than I am where they say, “I was just kidding when I said that in the last press conference.” The Bills were +24 in turnover differential. Only one other team was more than +12. That giant turnover margin is likely to regress. The historic offense benefited from historically low negative plays. Again, this doesn’t happen in a vacuum. To be clear, I think that a field strecther was more important than competition for Cam Lewis, Reggie Gilliam and J’Marcus Ingram. I think that the delta from those guys to Hancock, Hawes and Strong is less impactful than someone like Arian Smith. Do YOU agree or disagree? To be clear, for the 52nd time, I do not think a 4th round WR would be the difference in the Bills going 7-10 or 14-3. I don’t think that competition for Cam Lewis does that either. I do believe that Arian Smith (for example) is more likely to make a play impacting a playoff game vs. KC or Philly that could be important. That is my focus. When you’re 1 or 2 plays away, I’m looking for the guys that are capable of making 1 or 2 plays to put them over the top. I’m not worried about what I’ll have to do if J’Marcus Ingram plays some snaps in 3 games instead of Dorian Strong. I like Strong (for example) but don’t think that delta impacts wins or losses one iota. Hope that clears it up. @LEBills I’ve reached my tap out point as well. 🤣🤣

Omg, this is Groundhog Day. You do not need good receivers to have a good offense. If you have better receivers than you currently have, your offense will be better. In terms of a 4th round speed receiver, I’ll go through it for the 51st time because clearly it is still missing for some people. The Bills saw the 3rd least 2 deep last year. That was the case with Josh Allen as the QB which is crazy. That means, the Bills offense faces more defensive players, closer to the line of scrimmage than all but 2 teams. Their strength is getting the ball into playmakers hands quickly. When the defense crowds that space it is tougher for room to operate for the backs and Shakir. If the safeties were deep, Kincaid would have more space in the middle along with Shakir and Samuel. Getting a guy that plays 15-20 snaps and can raise the amount of 2 deep teams play, space will be created for the Bills playmakers. If you still can’t understand it, I’ll ask that someone else try laying it out for you. The overwhelming majority of the board understands this. That doesn’t even get to the potential for chunk plays or PI down the field. Big plays are important too.