Kirby Jackson

Torrence is exactly what teams are looking for. Ideally, he’d remain here for his whole career but it doesn’t make sense to give him the deal he will command. We certainly shouldn’t let him walk in FA the following year. The tag is an option. They’ll just be tying up too much in the OL unless one of the OTs is gone. I don’t see that. They’re both excellent. Dawkins still has years left it looks like. No one wants to get rid of him but with the stable of guys behind him, Kromer and the needs elsewhere, it’s probably the right decision.

I’m struggling with why this is still a topic. It felt like we put this to bed a few months ago. Now, we want to revisit if he’s similar to one of the best WRs that the Bills have ever had?? What are we doing here? FWIW, the majority of the Keon blame goes to Beane. Keon is the same player that he was. He has to own some for not getting any better but 80% of it falls to Beane for the idea of Keon. That was not a viable succession plan to Diggs and Gabe. He doubled down this year by pumping him up and avoiding WR in the draft. He added a quality role player in Palmer to replace a role player in Mack. He just had to have a better plan to address the boundary. Instead, he went on the radio talking trash to the morning guys about how right he was. Here we sit, with the exact same flaw that we could all see for 2 years.

I’d hold until about 10:30 or 11 AM but you need to do whatever you think is best.

Did anyone name Mike Williams from Riverside?

What? Just saying, if you think there’s “hindsight” to most of these thoughts, use the search function. You can go back a long time and find lots, and lots, and lots of posts on the topic from MANY posters. No one is looking back with hindsight like, “I’m really surprised this Keon Coleman thing hasn’t gone well.” 🤣🤣

“Hindsight” 🤣

Can’t afford him

They aren’t going up. As a buyer, wait until the last possible moment. If you want to sell, get them out EARLY. It’s 100% fool proof.

You. In all seriousness, tomorrow morning you’ll get those tickets for under $100.

Blake Haubeil Yes, that Tressel story with Dennis Dipaolo is true. Ironically (humble brag) we ended up at a party with Dennis & Jim Kelly outside of the stadium prior to the OSU/Miami National Championship. My dad knew him some through a mutual friend. He was wearing a Tressel Baldwin Wallace shirt. Kelly was head to toe in Canes gear. a few more Qadree Ollison Jody Fortson Chris Manhertz isn’t from here but played basketball at Canisius

They have a kid at UGA now right?

Great question!! I would have said under a couple of weeks ago but it feels like we are entering “Thanos time.” It feels like he is about to start dominating. “Feeling” isn’t the best way to analyze something but you know it when you see it. He had that look last week that has been largely absent for the first half of the year. We may see him dominate the second half on his way to another MVP.

In a lot of ways it was a really, really arrogant approach to WR. The Bills traded Diggs and let Gabe walk. They didn’t replace them in FA (Samuel and Mack). Maybe they thought Samuel would replace Gabe. Mack was brought here for ST but outperformed that. They went into, arguably, the greatest WR draft ever with a clear hole at the top of the depth chart. There were 3 guys that were surefire number 1 WRs and then a 4th guy that was kind of in his own tier. He was the prototypical 1st round WR prospect that was going to be a good WR. He had a little more downside than the other 3 but upside as well. From there, there was probably about another 10 guys that were 1st or 2nd round type of guys in a normal draft. They had varying levels of ceilings and floors. They also had diverse skills that both made them good and limited them. From that group you had to select the right combination of skills that you needed with the right mix of floor and ceiling. As an example, if the Bengals wanted a WR they could swing for the fences because if they missed, they were still great there. If they hit, they could dump an expensive good player and get a return. The Bills were trying to replace the top of their depth chart and a lot of targets. They had to take a guy with a higher floor even if it meant they were sacrificing some upside. The most important skillset that they needed was the ability to get open. They should have tried to move mountains to get one of the top 3. I didn’t love Thomas at the time but he made sense after that. When they failed to move up McConkey, Worthy or Pearsall should have been the pick (probably in that order). You had to have a guy that was going to be good and productive out of the gate. Maybe none of those guys would ever be great but would be a solid contributor immediately. The Bills didn’t have the luxury to miss (to go back to the Bengals example above). Instead, they traded down twice. That was insulting enough and showed a lack of a plan. Then, they decline offers to trade down further and take the guy with a ton of question marks. He was considered a project by everyone. The thought was always, “he could become Devante Adams but it’s a long shot.” The Bills could have done that later but they had to have a “safer” option first. They had to protect against, “what if this guy just stinks?” Unfortunately, that’s what happened and they are trotting out one of the worst WR rooms in the league. It hasn’t bitten them yet but how much better would this team be if you just swapped out Coleman for Ladd? The entire approach to WR has been arrogant and flawed. Carnell Tate, Jordyn Tyson, Makai Lemon, Chris Bell and Denzel Boston are probably the most popular names. There’s a kid at Tennessee and a kid at A&M as well. It’s a group that looks better now than it did earlier in the season. The 2027 class should be an all-timer.

It has nothing to do with 2 WRs. You’re still not seeing the point. Forget about strengths and weaknesses. The salary cap is a pie chart that equates to $279.2M. Every “cap hit” takes a slice of that pie. You need to fill out ALL position rooms and depth within that pie. The Bills obviously have a big slice for QB as they should. They have a big slice for DL as the should. They have a big slice for OL as they should. If they were to pay Torrence the deal that Robert Hunt got (I think he gets more) that slice will be too large. It throws the roster out of whack. The OL slice should remain one of the largest but it will because of Dawkins, Brown and likely McGovern and/or Edwards. It will already be, arguably the biggest OL slice of the cap of any team in the league BEFORE making Torrence one of the game’s highest paid OGs. The Bills should allocate more to the OL than most teams. They shouldn’t go so far as to cripple the rest of the roster. He can’t be back unless you want to part with Dawkins or Brown. You're looking at it as a wr conversation. It isn’t that. Clearly WR1 is their biggest need but that wasn’t the point. It was an example. WR1’s don’t hit FA anymore (pretty much ever) so you have to draft one or trade for 1. I gave a realistic trade using an elite trade chip from the Bills that they probably have to replace anyways. They don’t have to replace him because he’s not good. They have to replace him because he’s about to throw the salary cap pie chart out of whack. If you’d prefer to insert a defensive lineman in there or a safety or a LB or whatever, go ahead. It has ZERO to do with the players coming back and everything to do with keeping the cap balanced. The last point is Aaron Kromer has been a master at developing IOL. You have guys on your bench that would start in many places. You’re replacing a really good player that got too expensive with a good player that is inexpensive. That allows flexibility elsewhere. The drop off from Torrence to Anderson is much smaller than the drop off from Higgins (AS AN EXAMPLE) to Keon. You are just rebalancing the cap and roster. You aren’t restructuring how you’re built. You’ll still have one of the NFL’s best and most expensive OLs. Here is an analysis of it that I don’t have the energy to read at 6 AM 🤣🤣: https://www.gaics.org/userdata/upload/file/JBSM_Volume6No1_2025Article1.pdf. I’m fairly certain it addresses this conversation and others. It’s a good way to look at how the Bills are built.

We should have sold out to get one of the big 3 (or even Thomas) because we needed a number 1. With all due respect, counting gross stats doesn’t tell me much of a story because there are so many variables that determine success. Who is your QB? What is your scheme? Who is the play caller? How many different ways can you help a team? What is asked of you? Where are you on the depth chart? Etc, etc, etc.. There is way too much information out there in 2025 to count yards/receptions/tds. That doesn’t tell you the story. That tells you how about their opportunity. We need to dig a little deeper and compare success within that opportunity. We didn’t have the luxury of taking an extremely flawed prospect and HOPING that he would defy his metrics. That was a bad plan. You needed more of a sure thing because that guy had to contribute. You couldn’t take on so much downside. Worthy would have 100% been a better pick. He wouldn’t be perfect but is a better player than Keon. I liked AD Mitchell, Legette and others above him too. He was WR 15 for me I think. I certainly liked McConkey above him because he was extremely safe. He was a guy that was going to eat targets because of his ability to get open and produce in the SEC. They vacated a zillion targets with Gabe and Diggs leaving. They didn’t replace that in FA so they didn’t have the luxury of drafting a long shot prospect with major red flags. Keon “the idea” is as bad as Keon “the player.” This isn’t hindsight. This is well documented on here leading up to the 2024 draft.

Totally fair. i probably should have been clearer and maybe not used Josh. I was trying to say he overcame his collegiate completion percentage issues in a similar manner. He did have elite tools though. Many thought he’d be the 1st overall pick. Harmon looked at the specifics of Keon’s separation metrics. Guys with those metrics succeeded at an incredibly low percentage and almost always in the slot. FWIW, I remember Amon-Ra St. Brown was a success story. Other guys were like Johnny Wilson.

Mostly his inability to get open. Matt Harmon did a whole thing on him pre-draft and basically said “guys like that almost never succeed.” It didn’t mean it was impossible. The Bills just did it with Josh but it was an extreme long shot. Lightning didn’t strike twice.

Oh good, a Keon Coleman thread. In all seriousness, not much to discuss, he sucks. It’s been debated on here for a year and a half. The Keon truthers have finally gone silent. He’s not even really a bust. He was like the 8th or 9th WR picked and he was way overdrafted. Keon was an extremely flawed prospect that hasn’t overcome those major holes in his game.

No one said that this is what’s likely. It just said the betting favorites (which is inarguably a fact). DraftKings has Baltimore at -145 & Pittsburgh +135 & Denver at +110 & KC +145 (so not favorites). This is a hypothetical. That’s what we do here. It was never intended to be “will this or won’t this happen?” HYPOTHETICALLY, “which is a better path?” The board is pretty much split right down the middle. Both sides are perfectly reasonable. No one is suggesting that either scenario would happen. Put that aside and what’s the best option for the Bills to get where they need to be?

Lol, you can’t tie up the percentage of cap space in your OL that it will take. It’s not that simple!! Your tackles are highly paid. Torrence will get a contract at or above what Hunt got (5 years $100m and $63M guaranteed). It’s just not feasible to do. The Bills can get Edwards and McGovern for that. Let me ask what’s better Anderson/Higgins or Torrence/Coleman? Those are the types of decisions that are being made. We all think Torrence is good but business decisions must be made. He has excellent value. Of course he’s very good. You’re using that to improve elsewhere. You’re betting on the delta from Torrence to Anderson is smaller than the delta from Coleman to Higgins (as an example).

Really just Houston. We can’t count games before Josh. They lost in OT vs. Houston and everything had to go against them (it did). It’s really the KC games home and away (plus the home Cincy game). Those are the only playoff losses that matter.

I do have this shirt (in grey):

So excited to wait in line with you for Ratatouille

Whatever the comp would be. It’s just an example. That’s one way for the Bills to get their number 1 WR without sacrificing their 1st. A team that starts Anderson/Higgins is better than one that starts Torrence/Coleman. There are other guys that fit the mold too. That’s why I said he’s an excellent trade chip. You can’t give him $65M guaranteed while paying those others too. That cap space needs to be reallocated.