Kirby Jackson

Name the groups that are better if it’s not close to the worst. I came up with the Raiders and maybe the Panthers and/or Browns. They are somewhere between 29-31 in my estimation. We are counting on guys that haven’t proven much. Palmer was the Chargers 3rd and they let him walk. Shenault has 96 receiving yards over the last 2 years!! How many teams would be saying, “that guy might be good?” He’s a scrub and doesn’t belong on the roster.

Not sure who they liked of the group but I’m sure that they missed a few times. I’m assuming that they got sniped on Horton as he was the last one left. Fun fact, I’ve been in the draft room for one pick. It was a trade up for John McCargo 🤣.

I think all of those guys could have played 10-20 snaps a game as a field stretcher. The Bills use a committee at WR and on DL. I think that those guys could have been in that committee and added a skillset missing from the roster.

I guess that my answer would be someone thought they were good enough. All of them got drafted between rounds 3 & 5. I counted 13 of the “speed guys” that went in those rounds and 4 or 5 other WRs that weren’t really field stretchers. That was the sweet spot and the Bills had lots of assets in there to secure one. I don’t know how the Bills had them ranked. I am sure that there were certainly some that they liked more than others.

That’s fair. What I’m saying is that they had 11 or 12 guys, that visited, ran sub 4.4, and all went on day 3. They could have found a way to get ONE of those guys that they liked best. They had 7 picks and that was the biggest remaining need when the day started yesterday (or at worst 2nd biggest). They self identified the importance of it. My frustration is that there were lots of chances to make it happen. If there was like a guy or 2 and they had 3 picks, for example, it would be much more understandable. That wasn’t the case here. Lots of guys filled that role, they expressed an interest in lots of those guys and had lots of ammo. It didn’t and still doesn’t make sense. Adding a deep threat was a much bigger need than competition for Cam Lewis, J’Marcus Ingram and Zach Davidson in my humble opinion.

Sure 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

They said that they needed it. Both McDermott and Beane said it publicly. They used something like 11 of their 30 pre-draft visits on the guys I’m referring to. They 100% believed that they needed it. They got sniped once or twice (see Horton). They should have priorized it more and used those late round picks to make sure that they got their guy. It’s not rocket science and not something I’m making up.

It’s unreasonable to argue that they aren’t “one of the worst.” They were no better than the 25th best group on Wednesday. They went through the draft and added 1 guy, the 28th WR selected. You can split hairs if they’re 32 or 29 or whatever but tough to make a case that they are better. Good thing we have Josh Allen

Maybe they can swing a deal for Jameson Williams or Alec Pierce. WGR has been talking about Pierce. He had 824 yards and 7 TDs on only 37 receptions!! That’s kind of insane. He would be a fine option to fill that role. Maybe you can trade some of your depth on the line or in the secondary? Would they do Epenesa and a 5th or something like that?

All good man!! You have a good day too and Go Bills!! 🍻

Bro, you just tried to make an argument using Tyrell Shavers, KJ Hamler, Jalen Virgil and Kaden Prather 🤣. Those guys COMBINED for one more NFL reception than you or I last year. I’m good with having a discussion but have something to support it other than googled 40 times. If you wanted to discuss how Palmer is one of the league leaders in separation and has averaged over 15 YPC over the last 2 years, that would be something. To tell me that Jalen Virgil and KJ Hamler ran fast 40’s is absurd. I listed like 10 or so guys, that went on day 3, that run sub 4.4, most of whom visited, all of whom are known as field stretchers as my argument. You didn’t need a certain guy. You needed one of the dozen or whatever it was that went (that may be conservative). They took the 28th guy who has a slow 10 and 20 yard split. He doesn’t get off the line. He has decent long speed. Prather doesnt solve their problem. If you want to object, feel free but bring more than Hamler & Virgil’s 40 times.

Lol, no it’s not. They said it 🤣🤣. Go rewatch the end of the year press conferences. Those players that you listed COMBINED for 108 catches, 1143 yards and 6 TDs. Trey McBride had 111 receptions for 1146 yards 🤣🤣. Hamler and Virgil were picked up after being released elsewhere. Shavers has 1 catch ever. Samuel is a role player that has averaged like 10 YPC in his career, Prather was the 28th WR selected 🤣 and Shakir is a good slot. You can’t be serious with this? You can’t. 🤣🤣 100% Just look above 🤣🤣. Hamler, Virgil, Shavers, Prather, Samuel and Shakir is enough speed. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

It isn’t this OR that. It is this AND that. That has been my entire point in both threads. They had 4 needs: starting caliber CB, rotational DT, at least one more DL and a WR that can stretch the field vertically. Through their first 3 picks, they check the first 3 boxes. They had 7 picks yesterday (and the last 2 offseasons) to address the 4th box. They didn’t. They saw the 3rd least 2 high last year. That’s pretty much impossible with Josh Allen at QB. It looks like that’s what’s coming again. They’ve built a set of skill players that can’t threaten a team down the field and outside the numbers. What does that mean? It means that they will face more crowds in the middle and near the LOS. That’s where they like to operate. There will be less space for Shakir, Cook and Josh Allen. Why do that to yourself? Why not make sure that you get one of the 10ish guys on day 3 that is sub 4.4 and brings that skillset? It’s not like you had 1 pick or 1 option. There were lots of ways to get it done and they didn’t for the 2nd straight year. I don’t understand why you’d handcuff Josh Allen.

The Bills NOT drafting to fill holes this year would be tragic. They are in the middle of Josh Allen’s prime. Every single decision needs to be made one season at a time now. We’ve already squandered the last 5 seasons of his prime. We shouldn’t be worried about 2026 and beyond. That would be insane.

Start is such a weird way to evaluate it on this “everybody eats” group. Last year, Hollins was behind Samuel, Coleman, Shakir and Cooper once he got here. I bet he played as many or more snaps than all receivers with the possible exception of Shakir. It’s a ROLE not a spot on the depth chart that the Bills missed on. They missed on a slew of sub 4.4 40 guys that could have done that. Now, they’ll try it with Prather who I don’t believe is the guy. Here is the list of guys after 30 that I believe could have done that: Burden, Noel, TeSlaa, Kyle Williams, Savion Williams, Tai Felton, *****, Thornton, Arian Smith, Lane, Royals, Watkins, Lambert-Smith, Horton and Tez Johnson. Obviously, they all aren’t equal but that’s a list of fast guys that can stretch the field drafted after 30. There are others as well that can maybe do it including Prather. The frustration from me is it isn’t one guy that they missed on. There were lots of options to fill that role.

That’s who Samuel is as a player. He’s a weapon, not a pure WR. That’s who he has been back to Ohio State. He will be more impactful this year, I agree. If people think he’s going to magically become Prime Diggs, he’s not. He’s a guy that’s good with the ball in his hands. He catches screens, runs the ball some, etc.. He is good with the ball in space like Shakir. I do think Kincaid improves as well. I don’t think he improves because he has a ton of untapped upside. He will be 26 years old this season. He’s developed. I think he improves because he wasn’t very good last year. He can be a quality role player. He might never be the top 5 TE I thought he’d become but he can be a top 12ish guy. I keep hammering on it in the other thread but why do they keep banking on improvement on offense but replacement on defense? Why were they so concerned with upgrading Cam Lewis, Dwayne Carter and J’Marcus Ingram but fine with development from Shavers, Coleman, and Samuel? You could have and should have tried to upgrade on both sides. The WR room needed one guy between rounds 2 & 5 (as it turns out) that could stretch the field. There were LOTS of options.

I’d say it’s bottom 3 along with the Raiders and Panthers maybe. If Tet can play they go by us. The Browns aren’t great either but Jeudy is coming off a 1200 yard season so I’d give them the edge. The Raiders kind of stink. I’d say somewhere between 28-31. Shakir is a good, not great slot. 10-15 years ago he would have been a great slot. The game has just changed and a lot of elite WRs operate out of the slot (Jefferson, St. Brown, etc). Shakir is a top 40ish WR. The Bills might not have another guy in the top 75. I’m not talking fantasy. They will have some guys higher than that in fantasy because someone has to catch the ball and Josh Allen is throwing it. I’m saying if you ranked all WRs in the NFL from 1-75, Shakir may be the only guy on the list (Coleman or Palmer might get in there). It’s a bad group.

Totally fair. I’m with you on DK too. At that price I thought that he could have transformed the offense and is a perfect fit for what they need. Maybe there’s another trade out there (albeit not as good)? The WGR guys were suggesting Alec Pierce from the Colts. He would check that box for me. He led the NFL in YPC last year. To me Royals, Lambert-Smith, Thornton, ***** (1st pick of the 4th but his name is not getting through the filter 🤣), Arian Smith, Watkins, Lane, or even Tez Johnson would have addressed that need. My frustration comes from the fact that there wasn’t just 1 or 2 guys yesterday that could have been your vertical guy and you missed. You had so many chances to secure one. I thought entering yesterday that was your biggest hole left (you could argue another DT too). None of those guys are perfect prospects but IMO any of them could have added that vertical threat that they’re missing.

I give it a B- to C+. I liked the 1st couple of days. I thought that it represented pretty good value and fill some needs. I would have been at B to B+ through Friday. I didn’t love the job yesterday. Walker is huge but flawed. If his lousy 2024 was because of a back injury only, cool. I don’t suspect that though. For as big as he is, he is top heavy and plays high. It’s not a bad gamble at that point but he isn’t a lock to even make the team IMO. He’s a high ceiling low floor guy. They brought something like 11 WRs in that ran sub 4.4. McDermott and Beane both have said, they need to be able to threaten the field vertically. Yesterday was the perfect chance to do that with most of those guys still on the board. They had the ammo, and had already addressed their other 3 needs (starting caliber CB, rotational DT, and another rotational DL regardless of position). They didn’t accomplish that. There were a few times that it felt like they got sniped yesterday (Tory Horton and Pooh Paul come to mind). With the amount of draft capital yesterday and lack of available roster spots, that shouldn’t have happened. They should have overpaid, if needed, to fill the remaining needs or get players that we know they liked (ie Paul). They didn’t need to preserve picks to draft a Lee Smith clone or a 3rd corner. I would have rather taken a punter for example. It was an okay draft IMO. It was better at the top than as it went along which I normally don’t think of with Beane drafts. If those 3 can play it has a chance to be better than b-/c+. 🍻

So basically from the time that Josh Allen became one of the games best players until now, they spent 37.5% of their value trying to help him and 62.2% of the time trying to get acceptable on the other side of the ball? Cool. If you add FA dollars in that time frame (I’m not asking you to do that) it will further illustrate the point.

Lol, I literally said that 3 of the 4 needs were defense. Of course it needed more fixing! No one is arguing that. The offense needed 1 guy added!! They used the 240th pick on a guy that isn’t fast enough to fill the role. Using Coleman as an example to support the investment is not a good argument. He was the 8th or 9th WR selected after 2 trade downs. He was universally thought of as an extremely flawed prospect. Guess what, he wasn’t very good. That’s not a credit to the staff. It’s an indictment of the staff. It would have been very, very easy to fix the pass catchers in 2024. It was considered the greatest draft ever for WR prospects. They failed. They added Coleman, MVS, Hamler, Claypool, Isabella, and Hollins. They were forced to trade a 3rd for 1/2 a season of Amari Cooper. They entered 2025 needing to fix it again in a much tougher environment to do so. They signed Josh Palmer, who I think is a pretty decent player and a Mack Hollins upgrade. That’s it. That’s what’s been done. They actually took a bad group and got worse without trying to get better. It’ll be more of Josh needs to be Superman. They have openly said that they needed to do that. Anyone with a brain can see it. I don’t blindly look at what happens and say, “they must know better than me.” I didn’t want Coleman last year. I wanted Worthy, Ladd or Legette at that spot. With the exception of Legette, I’d be right at this point. It’s not about being right though. The point is, they don’t always know best. They’ve done a bad job with the pass catchers.

Exactly!! This is pretty much perfectly said. It’s way more articulate than my frustrated ramblings. They were good enough until they weren’t. They are pretty much betting on the offensive guys improving but the defensive guys needed replacing. I’m suggesting that BOTH areas needed some upgrading in addition to improvement. They didn’t have to ONLY address a part of it with additions. If they would have added Jalen Royals or Luther Burden or D’onte Thornton or even Tory Horton, I wouldn’t have an issue. They would have attempted to upgrade that spot with speed.

They scored enough points until they didn’t. It’s not an agenda. It’s a fact. 2 years in a row they had the ball with a chance to win and didn’t. They didn’t have enough people besides Josh, and the backs, to make a play. They fell short. You can say, yeah but they scored 47 against the Jags so they’re good enough. I hold them to a higher standard. If you think that the skill players on this team are good enough, we strongly disagree.

I don’t care what the stats say. They couldn’t get it done when it mattered. Beane and McDermott admitted that the lack of a vertical passing game was a massive issue. They brought in like 11 WRs that ran sub 4.4 hoping to add that role. They failed. They had multiple chances today to move around and secure one of them. They didn’t. Now the offense has the same hole that it had previously. They had 10 picks and didn’t get it done (forget about Prather he isn’t that guy). In this draft they had 4 things that had to happen. They had to get a starting caliber CB. They had to get a DT (preferably a 1T). They had to get another DL and had to get someone to stretch the field vertically. By yesterday they had checked 3 of the 4 boxes. They had 7 chances today to check the 4th and didn’t.

We disagree. They were both a problem. The offense was too easy to defend because they couldn’t attack vertically. That limited them at times. They couldn’t score at the end. They were better than the defense but neither was good enough. Josh Allen and a phenomenal, yet likely unsustainable, turnover differential were enough.