Kirby Jackson

Lol, I hate this argument. The Bills offense scored a lot of points. The Bills have one of the worst WR rooms in the league. Both of those things can be true. They have an elite OL, one of the best players in the league at QB, good to very good backs, one of the best OCs in the league, had the highest turnover margin in the NFL and the fewest negative plays ever (or something like that). That allowed them to produce at a high level despite the lack of talent in the WR room. If they can maintain those things again, I expect them to remain good. Why are we believing Beane when his actions show that he isn’t content with the group? He brought in Elijah Moore a day after the draft. He gave a 3rd for 1/2 a year of Cooper. They averaged like 7 more points a game with him in the lineup or something. That’s not just coincidence. Teams changed the way that they defended the Bills. He used 9 (or whatever) of his 30 predraft visits on speed receivers. He can say, “the offense is good I’m not worried about receivers.” You’d have to be pretty simple though to believe it based on his actions. The group is better today than they were a week ago. Again, maybe the Bills can win again with a bottom 5 group of WRs. They did last year. They had a lot go their way. I sure hope they can. I do think great receivers are important. The Super Bowl Champs pay their top 2 WRs $57M a year. They clearly think it matters. There are multiple ways to win. The Bills have chosen to build elsewhere and to try to win WITH the WR group that they have. It has worked for them to this point. That doesn’t mean that they are good though.

Yes it is. Is it easier to take one step back and catch a ball or to run 15 yards down the field and shake a corner? You know that. No reason to dig in. They had high separation scores and ran a ton of routes conducive to a high separation rate. Both things are true. That’s a credit to Brady more so than anyone. He designed an offense that scored lots of points despite some clear blind spots / holes. They have added Palmer and Moore to gain separation. They have won with route running and further down the field. That will open up more of the playbook. That’s a positive.

Misleading though because I’ll bet that they also had some of the lowest average depth of target in the league. If you throw a quick screen, that would be considered separation. Samuel and Shakir saw lots of those and Kincaid some. Are they winnning with route running 10-20 yards down the field? That’s what prime Diggs did. I’m not suggesting that they need prime Diggs but someone that wins with route running.

They have certainly thrown stones at guys that were good at one time. Flowers and Bateman, along with the TEs, is solid though. They’re taking chances on guys like Hopkins bouncing back because they have a stable group of pass catchers ahead of him. If he’s 70% of what he once was, that’s helpful. I like their pass catchers. I think they play so much off script that it’s tough to tell that they are actually good.

I like the signing and wanted him in that draft. Moore and Palmer are guys that get open with their route running. That’s something that the Bills missed last year. They had to run so many plays around the LOS because of the lack of separation. They were at their best when they could just get the ball in someone’s hands. These 2 will add a dimension that’s been missing. I haven’t followed him closely as a pro. When he was coming out there was a belief that he could get down the field. He did a lot of that at Ole Miss with double moves. I saw last year he averaged like 8 yards a catch so I’m assuming that there wasn’t much of that. Maybe it was QB or scheme. Maybe he just hasn’t been able to do it like the scouting reports thought he could. It’s probably a little of all of that. Despite his size the Bills should try to use him to get down the field. Overall, it’s a nice addition and makes that room better.

I think Palmer has to be. He is a separator that has played outside. I think that alone, means he’s in the top 2 now. I agree with all of your thoughts here though. That’s kind of what I see too.

Samuel is a slash guy. I am a fan and have been since his Buckeye days. He was a RB. He isn’t a X or Z. He’s a guy that you manufacture touches for. I like him but he’s a role player. Palmer is a proven 3 and gets separation. He was still WR 3 on a bad team that let him walk and tried to upgrade. He will be a top 2 on this team. That’s more about this team than him. How many teams would have Josh Palmer starting on the outside? It is a very small number. The same goes for Coleman. He has upside and downside. There aren’t many teams where he would be starting as of today. He absolutely needs to get better because the Bills need that. I think that the Bills could use a 1 and/or 2. They could also get away with a straight field stretcher. The WGR guys have been talking about Alec Pierce. He had like 820 something yards on 37 catches. He would round out the group. The offense will be good and score points. It’s a bottom 5 WR group. It may not matter but the Bills shouldn’t count on a historic lack of negative plays and leading the league in turnover margin. I think they will be fine but I’m very surprised that this is what they’re comfortable running out there.

Dionte Johnson is an idiot. He also had a 3 year stretch where he caught 281 balls for over 3,000 yards. Callaway has caught 16 balls since the start of 2022 and none in the last 2 years. That’s not the same. Hopkins looks washed but he might be heading to the Hall of Fame. The Ravens took a chance on him as their 5th receiving option if you include the 2 TEs. They already have Flowers and Bateman. Flowers is certainly better than any Bills receiver and you could argue Bateman is as well (you may prefer Shakir to him). It was a risk worth taking because if he is in fact done, it doesn’t torpedo them. He was option 5. When I hear the Chiefs have no good receiver outside of Worthy, that can only come from bitter Bills fans. Worthy obviously showed in the playoffs that he might be a young Desean Jackson. He was great. Rashee Rice turned 24 last week and was out most of last year (and may miss this year if suspended). He still had 938 yards as a rookie. He was off to a big start in 2024. They have Hollywood, Royals and Juju. All of those guys would play here. Worthy & Rice are better than all Bills receivers. Hollywood, Royals, and Juju are potentially better than all Bills receivers except Shakir. The Chiefs WR room is WAY better than the Bills.

It’s so funny to watch people defend the WR room and then suggest scrubs like this. I’m not talking about anyone in particular but I promise that the Ravens, for example, aren’t kicking around the idea of this scrub.

You wouldn’t believe what you could trade that for in 2013.

So as a 6-8 catch a week guy that puts him between 102 and 136 catches. If you go in the middle at 7 catches, that puts him at 119 on the season. Exactly 1 player had more than that last year. Hell, at 102, only 6 guys had more (4 WRs). 102 would be 1 reception behind Justin Jefferson and 1 ahead of Lamb and Wilson. If Coleman was a 4 catch a game guy we should be happy.

There’s a level of hypocrisy that’s frustrating too. They traded a 3rd for 1/2 year of Cooper because they didn’t believe the room was good enough. They talked about how Coleman and Kincaid needed to get better. They talked about how they needed to stretch the field vertically. They used a significant portion of their top 30 visits on sub 4.4 guys that can get down field. They wouldn’t have wasted those visits as a “decoy.” They clearly wanted a guy there. Then when asked about it, they (Beane in this case) got all defensive and acted as if WR was never on the table. You’re not fooling anybody. Just say, “we had our eyes on a few guys to fill that role but it didn’t work out. We like Prather and think he had a chance to grow into that.” That’s much more respectable and believable than his interview yesterday. I wouldn’t have been hard to satisfy in this draft. Had they added Thornton, for example, I would have been good. There were other guys in that range too. I didn’t need Golden to be satisfied just one of those guys in the middle rounds with that skill set. Hancock, Hawes and Porter are all decent value and football players. If they HAD to have Walker, so be it. I would have sacrificed 2 of those other 3 to secure 1 of those field stretchers. It’s so much more important IMO, than competition for Cam Lewis, Davidson/Gilliam and Ingram.

So, they drafted Elam in the first the year before. They wouldn’t even put him on the field to improve. Basham was a 2nd and the same. Carter was a 3rd and a healthy scratch. That’s my point. They are saying, we need to replace guys like that along with solid back of the roster players in Lewis and Ingram. On offense they are saying, “everyone should get better.” They’re banking on improvement there but replacement on defense. To be clear, the defense was in worse shape than the offense. The majority of the assets should have been allocated to the defense. I’ve yet to see anyone dispute that. With that being said, 1 of those mid round picks should have been dedicated to securing a field stretcher. No one is suggesting the defense shouldn’t have been addressed.

Epenesa for Alec Pierce, who says no?

Yeah, Samuel will improve. That’s his skillset though. People who thought he was going to be a pure outside WR were always going to be disappointed. As an Ohio State fan, I like the player a lot. He was dynamic there with the ball in his hands. He was a RB though. He’s more of a slash guy and similar in some ways to Shakir. He’s a guy that’s good with the ball in his hands and explosive. In terms of Kincaid, he’s better than the player that was out there last year. I’m not sure he’s a top 5 guy though that I thought he’d become. There are a multitude of reasons as to why he struggled last year. I think some of it was the lack of other weapons. Teams focused on him. The Bills saw the 3rd least 2 deep in the league last year. The space where he likes to operate was crowded. The Bills will have to find ways to get him in space. Fortunately, Brady is very creative.

I think it’s such an interesting philosophical discussion. You can EASILY argue out of both sides of your mouth. The irony is that Beane has argued out of both sides of his mouth on the topic. He goes on WGR and talks about how many points the offense scored. He also said earlier this offseason, they need speed, and Coleman needs to get better. They dealt a 3rd for 1/2 of a year of Amari Cooper because they hated the situation. They brought in Elijah Moore for a visit yesterday so clearly he doesn’t believe, “this room is good.” They lost Cooper and Mack. They added Palmer. The answer is, it’s both. They’ve been a dynamic offense and scored a lot of points. The WR room is one of the worst in the NFL. Both are true. The question becomes, “can they sustain an elite offense with those limitations?” Those saying yes can say, “look at last year.” Those saying no can say, “last year they had the least negative plays in history. They led the league in turnover margin. They still had to trade a 3rd for Cooper and couldn’t score when it mattered most. That’s not sustainable.” Who is right? We don’t know the answer yet. I’m obviously a believer that a field stretcher is necessary to open up the playbook. I believe that their best weapons are Cook, Shakir and Kincaid in that order (obviously excluding Josh). They all need space underneath to operate. We will see if they can get a guy or if they can overcome that area of the field being crowded. It hurt Kincaid last year. The other 2 were fine but could they have been better? We don’t know. Now, we are in wait and see.

I fully expected to come here and see a picture of a very attractive ladyboy, extremely overweight onlyfans model, a slightly appealing androgynous figure, or a proactively shaped piece of fruit. I was like, “I’ll play.” But yeah, if my kid wants to play football, sure

I voted WR, but S is also an option. Punter is a sneaky good pick. We could be the worst in the league there.

I haven’t read the whole thread yet but did anyone reference his dog pee celebration in the egg bowl? I liked that too. Would love to see him simulate urinating on the Chiefs or Dolphins logo 🤣🤣

Neither runs those routes though. Moore averaged 8.8 YPC last year. Gabe Davis is a much better field stretcher than Curtis Samuel. Curtis Samuel is much faster than Gabe Davis. I like Moore a lot as a player. He isn’t the perfect fit but he would be one of the best receivers on the team the moment he signs.

Lol, this is kind of me. I like the player a lot. I wanted him when we drafted. He is more like Diggs as a player and kind of a slot guy. He’s a good route runner which is a skillset that we can use. He doesn’t check the vertical box that is like but certainly improves the WR room.

I didn’t hear it but it sounds hilarious (and kind of weird). Sorry, that you have an intelligent fan base. We can differentiate between the offense being good and the WRs being good.

I think that the 10 yard split but also the broad jump and vertical. Those are good tests of explosion. I like the 3 cone for quickness and cutting. Totally fair. I don’t know where these guys ranked in vertical or broad. There is also the ability to use your hands to beat press that needs to be factored it. I don’t know how you measure that. I think when it comes to the 40 time it really matters once you beat that press. If you beat a guy and are running vertically and he’s chasing, that’s where it matters. 4.30 and 4.46 become different there. The same goes for a corner like Hairston. If he gets beat by a 4.46 guy off the LOS, he still can recover (or at least easier than a 4.30 guy).

It’s about explosion. The reason Prather, and his 4.46 went on the 7th is that he isn’t good at the LOS. He doesn’t beat guys quickly. Thornton would fit all of it (but he can’t do much more).

No, because he is pushing 4.5. He has decent long speed but not the suddenness to blow by guys off the LOS. He can be pressed. There were 13 sub 4.4 guys in those rounds. I could have talked myself into pretty much any of them (Thornton was my favorite option). I want my field stretchers to fly. Prather is better than no one but I don’t believe that he fills that role. Thornton’s skillset would be the perfect addition to this room.