erynthered Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 So what did Ralph do besides make millions of dollars , at the expense of the fans. I would say Ralph is closer to a billionaire than a millionaire. Taxpayers money for the stadium. Ralph got lucky with the '88 - 93 teams. The team will be gone soon. Quality football in the NFL is pretty much history I have had it with these over paid lazy football players. Ralph didn't give the fans anything , the fans paid for it all. Ralph is a crabby old man as oppposed to years ago when he was a crabby younger man.Get a dome , took them 30 years to pave the parking lot . Todays players are wimpy ,the weather isn't sunny and 65 all the time. Get a girls team ,they have more grit than the guys. I went to the last game and the players pranced around like the Jills. Sorry about the rant. Rachel Maddow is that you?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler#81 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Sad to hear Tasker continues to get dropped. It is an injustice that the Hall doesn't really acknowledge special teams. That said, I think it's great that we have 3 finalists! There was a time the Bills never sniffed the Hall. IMO, Kemp, Sestak, Saimes, Hull & Bennett deserve enshrinement. I'd love to see Bruce, Andre and Ralphie-boy go in together. That'd be a HOT time in Canton for sure! Go Bills! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Reed did go 'cross the middle.......once. And man, did Pepper Johnson make him pay for doing so! The next time he ran that route, he did the ol' alligator arms bit, for which it took me a long time to forgive him. I'll balance that accurate point with the fact that Reed is still probably the best and most fearless WR to ever 'cross the middle' from a career perspective. He made his living there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Tasker was the best special teamers ever, but not one of the best players ever. Name one owner that did anything that warrants the hall of fame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRC Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Tasker was the best special teamers ever, but not one of the best players ever. Name one owner that did anything that warrants the hall of fame. George Halas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Rich Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 George Halas. Nah. He did more as a coach and a player than as an owner, Kenneth. Sheesh. You'd figure a guy who knows football history would know this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Tasker was the best special teamers ever, but not one of the best players ever. Name one owner that did anything that warrants the hall of fame. Al Davis, apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Al Davis, apparently. Al Davis has done more damage to the game than anybody- no way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Al Davis has done more damage to the game than anybody- no way. The HOF voters disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Wheels Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Al Davis has done more damage to the game than anybody- no way. You know that Al Davis was the commissioner of the AFL when the merger with the NFL was brokered, right? The league we have today would not exist without the work of owners like Lamar Hunt, Ralph Wilson, and Al Davis. All three should be in the HOF IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 You know that Al Davis was the commissioner of the AFL when the merger with the NFL was brokered, right? The league we have today would not exist without the work of owners like Lamar Hunt, Ralph Wilson, and Al Davis. All three should be in the HOF IMO. Sure do- but that is overshadowed by what Davis has done in the past 20-30 years. He is the father of franchise relocation and meddling owners. Honestly, I wouldn't put any of them in the Hall- note what they did in the leaguee annals, but don't put them in the hall......The Hall of Fame is watered down enough- Cortez Kennedy a finalist? Please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Rich Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Cortez Kennedy a finalist? Please. Lemme see: 668 career tackles 58 career sacks Member of NFL's All 1990s Team 3 time first team All Pro selection 8 Pro Bowl selections 1992 NFL Defensive Player of the Year How could he possibly be considered for the Hall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRC Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 The HOF voters disagree. That's probably not the strongest argument, since the HOF voters regularly put people in the HOF that are not deserving of the honor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Rich Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 That's probably not the strongest argument, since the HOF voters regularly put people in the HOF that are not deserving of the honor. If they all just get on the good side of guys like Peter King, they'll get in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRC Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 If they all just get on the good side of guys like Peter King, they'll get in. Pretty much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Hey- Hall of Fame voters have a right to their opinion......as everybody knows, the criteria is pretty subjective. I don't think Wilson, Davis or Kennedy deserve in. I would like to see Reed, Carter, Smith and Sharpe in. I am pulling for Reed and Carter to go in the same year- two of the most underrated, underappreciated WR's ever, IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 That's probably not the strongest argument, since the HOF voters regularly put people in the HOF that are not deserving of the honor. True. But, who's opinion is more important? The people that actually vote or the people (like us) that just talk about votes. The fact remains the HOF voters thought at one point in time that Al Davis was notable enough to be worthy of HOF induction. If he gets in, there's no rational explanation for Ralph's exclusion. So, until someone comes out and says All Davis (and a few others) was a mistake, I think you have to weigh would be inductees accomplishments against current members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRC Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Nah. He did more as a coach and a player than as an owner, Kenneth. Sheesh. You'd figure a guy who knows football history would know this. Lambeau? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRC Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 True. But, who's opinion is more important? The people that actually vote or the people (like us) that just talk about votes. The fact remains the HOF voters thought at one point in time that Al Davis was notable enough to be worthy of HOF induction. If he gets in, there's no rational explanation for Ralph's exclusion. So, until someone comes out and says All Davis (and a few others) was a mistake, I think you have to weigh would be inductees accomplishments against current members. If you need to compare would-be inductees to the weakest members of the Hall in order to make a point, the point was not that strong to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Rich Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Lambeau had no business being put in as a charter member, either. On the other hand, Andre Reed is a shoo in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomer860 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Rachel Maddow is that you?? No , its Ann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRC Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Lambeau had no business being put in as a charter member, either. On the other hand, Andre Reed is a shoo in. Carr? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Rich Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Carr? Over Ralph Wilson? What a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRC Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Over Ralph Wilson? What a joke. Now, you're getting picky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 If they all just get on the good side of guys like Peter King, they'll get in. I once bought him a mocha java grande macchiato half calf easy foam w/whip low fat vanilla latte. I think I'm a shoe in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tennesseeboy Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 He had that personal foul penalty in the Miami playoff game also towards the end of the game. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...ects/B/Baseball Reed was a very talented guy and an outstanding receiver, but come playoff time you never knew what you going to get in critical moments. Doesn't mean he wasn't good, just means he ain't hall of fame material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tennesseeboy Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...ects/B/Baseball Reed was a very talented guy and an outstanding receiver, but come playoff time you never knew what you going to get in critical moments. Doesn't mean he wasn't good, just means he ain't hall of fame material. Dated, but nice article on Reed and the hall of fame. Reed was not all that durable at the end missing a lot of games because of an ongoing "groin or leg" injury that teamates were rather skeptical of. http://www.profootballresearchers.org/Coff...r/19-05-717.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 If not for Ralph Wilson, you wouldn't have the Buffalo Bills. This always makes me wonder about something. Do you guys think that if Ralph hadn't come along, that another owner would have started a franchise in Buffalo? Remember that Buffalo was still a significant city on a national level in the 1960s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Rich Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 This always makes me wonder about something. Do you guys think that if Ralph hadn't come along, that another owner would have started a franchise in Buffalo? Remember that Buffalo was still a significant city on a national level in the 1960s. No. If Ralph Wilson had never been born, there would be no Buffalo. There would never ben any football in the city, and no Sabres either. Probably no Anchor Bar, either. No Duff's... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRC Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 This always makes me wonder about something. Do you guys think that if Ralph hadn't come along, that another owner would have started a franchise in Buffalo? Remember that Buffalo was still a significant city on a national level in the 1960s. In the AFL expansion, possibly. In the NFL, no way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tennesseeboy Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 In the AFL expansion, possibly. In the NFL, no way. Exactly. He did a lot to hold the league together, to manage the merger, and really was a voice of reason for the small market teams (and one could argue the entire NFL). I think he deserves it, but don't think he will get it. As far a Buffalo is concerned however, the Bills and professional football would not be here but for Ralph Wilson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Flanders Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 The other night here in Washington, the Ch. 4 (NBC) sports anchor on the 11:00 news announces: "Three former Redskins finalists for the Hall of Fame: Bruce Smith, Andre Reed, and Russ Grimm." Although, Lindsay C is very easy on the peepers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cåblelady Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I think I'm a shoe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcali Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 This always makes me wonder about something. Do you guys think that if Ralph hadn't come along, that another owner would have started a franchise in Buffalo? Remember that Buffalo was still a significant city on a national level in the 1960s. If Ralph hadn't come along we wouldn't have ruined so many of our Sundays. He is to blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I once bought him a mocha java grande macchiato half calf easy foam w/whip low fat vanilla latte. I think I'm a shoe in. I hate Starbucks simply because you have to learn another friggin language just to order a cup of coffee (I do not even drink it - my wife does). Many would argue I have not learned the english language so there is little point in trying to master another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Rich Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I hate Starbucks simply because you have to learn another friggin language just to order a cup of coffee (I do not even drink it - my wife does). Many would argue I have not learned the english language so there is little point in trying to master another. Haha!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwws9999 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Dated, but nice article on Reed and the hall of fame. Reed was not all that durable at the end missing a lot of games because of an ongoing "groin or leg" injury that teamates were rather skeptical of. http://www.profootballresearchers.org/Coff...r/19-05-717.pdf i still remember when he got that injury, i was surprised his leg wasn't ripped out of the socket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...ects/B/Baseball Reed was a very talented guy and an outstanding receiver, but come playoff time you never knew what you going to get in critical moments. Doesn't mean he wasn't good, just means he ain't hall of fame material. Come playoff time he was one of the most consistent Bills players ever. Playing mostly in cold, windy, wet at snowy conditions he amassed these paltry numbers Playoff #s . Hallmarks like the Cleveland game, the comeback game, the Miami shootout blizzard game, the list goes on and on. His playoff production far surpasses almost any other receiver in history except for a select few... He was not always the most well liked guy by the media, sometimes for good reason, and the team not winning those superbowls is the only thing that didn't get him in last year over Irvin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary M Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Being a HOF'er as an owner means lifetime contributions, I disagree, as an owner you have to have done something for the betterment of the game. Ralph loaned one of the other AFL owners money to keep their team viable. The thinking being that if a team folded the AFL would most likely collapse. Without that loan, there is no Superbowl, no merger and no NFL. Even though I hate every cell in his body right, I believe he qualifies. With three nominees a trip to Canton in August is almost a lock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tennesseeboy Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Come playoff time he was one of the most consistent Bills players ever. Playing mostly in cold, windy, wet at snowy conditions he amassed these paltry numbers Playoff #s . Hallmarks like the Cleveland game, the comeback game, the Miami shootout blizzard game, the list goes on and on. His playoff production far surpasses almost any other receiver in history except for a select few... He was not always the most well liked guy by the media, sometimes for good reason, and the team not winning those superbowls is the only thing that didn't get him in last year over Irvin. I just don't see his playoff contention (with the exception of the Houston comeback game where he had an unbelievably good day which would go a long way in the considerations). as being all that good. Against the Giants he was not effective once Lofton was shut down and made a number of bizarre drops, the Miami playoff game the Redskins game were lost in great part because of his dumb penalties. I think Kiet Joyner had a pretty good analysis in the URL posted above. "Let's examine Andre Reed. 1) Was he ever regarded as the best player in football? This is a very high standard, to be sure, but no, I don't think anyone has ever suggested it. 2) Was he the best player on his team? Andre Reed would be considered one of the best players on his team, but I don't think he would be considered the best. Bruce Smith is thought to be one of the finest defensive linemen of all time, Thurman Thomas is one of the two or three best running backs of his era, and Jim Kelly was one of the best quarterbacks in football. Andre would probably have to be ranked fourth by this measurement. 3) Was he the best player in his conference at his position? 4) Was he the best player in football at his position? I decided to answer these questions concurrently. Andre Reed has never been considered the best receiver of his era, what with competing directly with Jerry Rice. To decide the race for second best receiver of this era, I decided to look at the All-Pro teams. The Professional Football Writers Association of America and the Associated Press vote for All-Pro teams every year. These teams are supposed to represent the best players at their position. Two wide receivers are named on each team. Jerry Rice, whose career started at the same time as Reed's did, has been named All-Pro in every year except two. This leaves only one All-Pro slot per year for most of the years that Reed played in. Andre Reed has only been voted to an All-Pro team once, during the 1989 season. The best receivers of Reed's era (1985-1997) are generally considered to be Rice, Michael Irvin, Sterling Sharpe, Andre Rison, Mark Clayton, Mark Duper, Tim Brown, Art Monk, Steve Largent, Cris Carter, Herman Moore, and Reed himself With the exceptions of Largent, Duper, Clayton, Brown, and Reed, all of these receivers are NFC receivers, and most of these receivers were the All-Pro receivers during Reed's career As such, it would seem that the NFC had the better receivers. That being the case, you could probably make an argument for Reed being the AFC's best receiver of that era. With Duper, Clayton, Brown, Largent, Haywood Jeffires, Ernest Givins, and Anthony Miller as his chief competition, you would probably find that Reed ranks as good, or better, year in and year out. He was voted as the AFC Pro Bowl starter four times and voted in as a backup three other times in his 13 seasons, and no one else in the conference comes close to that. For the honor of the best receiver in the AFC over the last 13 seasons, Andre Reed gets my vote. 2 THE COFFIN CORNER: Vol. 19, No. 5 (1997) 5) Did he have an impact on any playoff or playoff caliber games? Andre Reed made a number of large contributions in big games for the Bills. He was an integral part of Buffalo's comeback vs. Houston in the 1994 AFC Wildcard game. He caught two touchdown passes in a 1991 AFC Divisional playoff game against the Chiefs. He also had a big game against Miami during the 1995 season that helped clinch a playoff spot for the Bills. The overriding memories I have of Andre Reed in the postseason, though, are in Super Bowls XXV and XXVI. In Super Bowl XXVI, Reed disagreed with an official's call, got mad, and tossed his helmet down in anger. This was pointed out to the official by one of the Redskins' players, and it cost Buffalo a 15-yard penalty. The penalty knocked the Bills out of field goal range at a point in the game where a field goal could have helped swing the momentum toward the Bills. In Super Bowl XXV, the Giants defensive game plan was to stop the big play, and force the Bills offense to put together a drive in order to score. They were very successful in achieving this. The Bills that year had James Lofton as their deep threat. Lofton's repertoire of pass patterns consisted of a go pattern and a deep out. The Giants took away the deep out pattern all game, and the Bills hit the go pattern successfully only once. On that play Lofton was covered, but the defender was only able to knock the ball into the air, where Lofton caught it on a rebound. Lofton finished with one catch for 61 yards. This left two other options in the Bills receiving corps. Andre Reed and Keith McKeller, the Bills tight end. McKeIler was a pedestrian receiver, so therefore Reed had to be the focal point of the Bills passing game. Through the first quarter and part of the second, Reed performed admirably, catching passes over the middle and keeping the Bills drives alive. In the second quarter, Reed caught a pass on a crossing route. He evaded one tackler, then was nailed by another. Reed struggled to his feet, and after the game said he had never been hit harder. It showed. Reed was still the focal point of the passing game, but he dropped three key passes throughout the rest of the game, two on 3rd down when the Bills needed the catch to keep the drive alive. He short armed balls in order to protect his ribs from the Giant defenders. It is my feeling that when the Bills offense needed him the most, Andre Reed, the man who once appeared in a magazine ad stating "You're going to get hit either way, so you might as well catch the ball," did not do so. The Bills offense refocused its attack with Thurman Thomas at the center, but was unable to overcome the loss of their entire passing attack, and lost 20-19. 6) If he retired today, would he be the best player in football not in the Hall of Fame? By my estimation, there are many players who were held in higher esteem during their era than Andre Reed is held in his. Dwight Stevenson was the Gale Sayers of offensive linemen, a man who only played six years but made such an impact that he is considered one of the best linemen ever. Ray Guy was the best punter ever, with the possible exception of Sammy Baugh, and is the only pure punter to ever garner any serious Hall of Fame consideration. Mick Tingelhoff was voted All-Pro for seven straight years in the 60's, five of which were unanimous selections. Del Shofner was voted All-Pro unanimously five times in six years. Benny Friedman was the best passer of the 20's and has been kept out of the Hall due to issues other than on field accomplishments. All of these players were considered to be by far the best at their positions at some point during their careers. Andre Reed has not been considered to be the best during his career, and as such would not rank ahead of any of these men. 7) Are most players with comparable stats at his position in the Hall of Fame? Andre Reed's career total for reception and yardage points is 1009. He is thus currently tied for 27th all time. This places him in the company of receivers such as Haven Moses, John Stallworth, Reggie Rucker, Wes Chandler, and Ken Burrough, with whom he is tied. It puts him just ahead of Elroy Hirsch, John Gilliam, Carroll Dale, Gene Washington, and Dante Lavelli. Ofall of the receivers just mentioned, only Hirsch and Lavelli are in the Hall of Fame, and one could argue that they were inducted more for being one of the great receivers of their eras than for their c" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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