scribo Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 I coach my 9-year-old son's football team. Since the first day of practice in pads, my entire coaching staff has stressed staying away from the collar, neck and helmet when tackling. It is true that horse-collar tackling is among the most efficient ways to bring a runner down, but the dangers are too severe to allow anyone to use the technique. Well, this past Saturday, our opponent used it throughout the game. On a number of occasions, at least nine times by my count, our ball carriers were brought down by horse-collar tackles. Each and every running back on my roster left the game injured from this type of tackle at least once during the game. We have not had any problem like this in our previous games or scrimmages. I spoke with the officials after the first occurrence of this type of tackle Saturday. I was told that this type of tackle is legal in our league; although, one official noted he feels it should be illegal. I am shocked that this type of tackle is not yet banned everywhere. The NFL outlawed it during the 2005 offseason and the NCAA did the same before this season began. But I have just been informed that the NFHS rules don't address it, so it is legal still. I am shocked and pissed. So my question to you guys, and I know I will get varying responses, do I have a right to be pissed or am I overreacting. I mean, I know there has been a whole lot of injury-free football played without that type of tackle being banned, but I think certainly is new and increased culpability for the county now that the dangers are so apparent and well publicized; especially, when it has been brought to the league's attention that a team used this technique numerous times in one game. What do you guys/gals think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 I coach my 9-year-old son's football team. Since the first day of practice in pads, my entire coaching staff has stressed staying away from the collar, neck and helmet when tackling. It is true that horse-collar tackling is among the most efficient ways to bring a runner down, but the dangers are too severe to allow anyone to use the technique. Well, this past Saturday, our opponent used it throughout the game. On a number of occasions, at least nine times by my count, our ball carriers were brought down by horse-collar tackles. Each and every running back on my roster left the game injured from this type of tackle at least once during the game. We have not had any problem like this in our previous games or scrimmages. I spoke with the officials after the first occurrence of this type of tackle Saturday. I was told that this type of tackle is legal in our league; although, one official noted he feels it should be illegal. I am shocked that this type of tackle is not yet banned everywhere. The NFL outlawed it during the 2005 offseason and the NCAA did the same before this season began. But I have just been informed that the NFHS rules don't address it, so it is legal still. I am shocked and pissed. So my question to you guys, and I know I will get varying responses, do I have a right to be pissed or am I overreacting. I mean, I know there has been a whole lot of injury-free football played without that type of tackle being banned, but I think certainly is new and increased culpability for the county now that the dangers are so apparent and well publicized; especially, when it has been brought to the league's attention that a team used this technique numerous times in one game. What do you guys/gals think? Scribo, you are absolutely 100% right, and for two reasons. 1. Somebody could get seriously hurt. The NFL didn't ban horse collars because it causes discomfort for the players, they banned horse collars because it's been proven that they can cause severely broken collar bones and even spinal cord injuries if performed a certain way. To me, it is ridiculous that the NFHS hasn't put a stop to horse collar tackles. It's bad enough that a 30 year old professional who gets paid millions has to deal with horse collars. Its 100 times worse that adolescents with their whole lives ahead of them who just want to play some ball have to run the risk of being tackled that way. 2. It just isn't the right way to tackle. Pop Warner football and high school football are supposed to prepare kids for the college game and (in some cases) the professional leagues. One of the biggest trends I've noticed in defenses over the recent past is the inability to perform good, solid, fundamental, wrap-em-up-bring-em-down tackles. Kids want to perform horse collars because they see their heroes doing that kind of thing on SportsCenter and feel like copying them. They should be learning the correct way to tackle. Embrace the ball carrier and throw him to the ground when he's within your reach. Push him out of bounds or trip him up by the lower body if he's gotten past you. None of this horse collar stuff. Unfortunately, a high school or Pop Warner player is probably going to get seriously hurt (somebody probably already has) before we see a rule change. It's really a shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in San Diego Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 I agree it should be banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribo Posted October 1, 2008 Author Share Posted October 1, 2008 Thanks. My league commissioner got back to me and said that "with some luck" they will have the rule in place by next season. Way too long in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 or am I overreacting. Not at all. Rules governing youth sports should be designed for maximum safety of the kids. It is insane to allow a practice deemed dangerous enough to be outlawed by the pros. You should scream long and loud until they get the change on the books. What is most infuriating about your story is that it seems apparent that the kids on the other team had been coached to use the horse-collar. Any adult who would teach that to kids needs to be beaten senseless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribo Posted October 1, 2008 Author Share Posted October 1, 2008 Not at all. Rules governing youth sports should be designed for maximum safety of the kids. It is insane to allow a practice deemed dangerous enough to be outlawed by the pros. You should scream long and loud until they get the change on the books. What is most infuriating about your story is that it seems apparent that the kids on the other team had been coached to use the horse-collar. Any adult who would teach that to kids needs to be beaten senseless. Bingo! It was a dirty team, punching and pinching in the piles, the whole deal. I have to believe something like starts with the coach. I nearly lost it after the refs told me they could do anything about it and it continued. I actually went out to midfield while another one of my backs was being helped off the field and asked the opposing coach to come speak with me. He wouldn't and one of his assistant coaches yelled at me from his sideline "to be a man" and let the "players play the game." I looked at the ref, who heard it, and the ref said to me, "If you go over there, I am going to have to suspend the game." I didn't want to do that to the kids or make any scene. The officials were worthless, telling us they could only see so much of the field at a time. But I really want to keep this thread about horse-collar tackling. Thanks for the feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drnykterstein Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 I agree it should be banned. What he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Flanders Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 I actually went out to midfield while another one of my backs was being helped off the field and asked the opposing coach to come speak with me. He wouldn't and one of his assistant coaches yelled at me from his sideline "to be a man" That was going to be my suggestion...maybe next game, try to talk to the other coach before kickoff, during warm-ups perhaps. Horse-collars should be banned in youth competition...along with aluminum bats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bills_fan Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Thanks. My league commissioner got back to me and said that "with some luck" they will have the rule in place by next season. Way too long in my opinion. I would ask that the commish ban it immediately. Some kid could get seriously hurt. Absent an immediate ban, get the email list for the coaches (even the guy in the last game) and circulate an email agreement among coaches to 1- Not teach the practice 2- Bench any kid that tackles that way for at least a half. If you get all the other coaches to sign on, my guess is the **** will cave. That would also be pretty powerful ammo for the commish to ban it immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 I would ask that the commish ban it immediately. Some kid could get seriously hurt. Absent an immediate ban, get the email list for the coaches (even the guy in the last game) and circulate an email agreement among coaches to 1- Not teach the practice 2- Bench any kid that tackles that way for at least a half. If you get all the other coaches to sign on, my guess is the **** will cave. That would also be pretty powerful ammo for the commish to ban it immediately. You might also point out to the commish that he is probably personally liable in the event that some kid breaks his neck since he is failing to properly consider saftey issues. Sadly, the fear of lawsuits gets things done far more quickly than does altruism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fezmid Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Bingo! It was a dirty team, punching and pinching in the piles, the whole deal. I have to believe something like starts with the coach. I nearly lost it after the refs told me they could do anything about it and it continued. I actually went out to midfield while another one of my backs was being helped off the field and asked the opposing coach to come speak with me. He wouldn't and one of his assistant coaches yelled at me from his sideline "to be a man" and let the "players play the game." I looked at the ref, who heard it, and the ref said to me, "If you go over there, I am going to have to suspend the game." I didn't want to do that to the kids or make any scene. The officials were worthless, telling us they could only see so much of the field at a time. But I really want to keep this thread about horse-collar tackling. Thanks for the feedback. Sounds like you're blaming the officials a lot here -- but what did they do wrong? Nothing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HopsGuy Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Bingo! It was a dirty team, punching and pinching in the piles, the whole deal. I have to believe something like starts with the coach. I nearly lost it after the refs told me they could do anything about it and it continued. I actually went out to midfield while another one of my backs was being helped off the field and asked the opposing coach to come speak with me. He wouldn't and one of his assistant coaches yelled at me from his sideline "to be a man" and let the "players play the game." ... If that had happened to me, I would have horse collared-that guy on the way to his car. That's just me, though. I've been known to overreact. /Andy Bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 He wouldn't and one of his assistant coaches yelled at me from his sideline "to be a man" and let the "players play the game." this whole situation sucks to be in. i agree with you completely that it should be banned IMMEDIATELY before some poor kid gets seriously injured and screwed up for the rest of his life. as far as those other coaches go, its unfortunate that they have to prove their manhood through the actions of little kids. must be sad, tiny-petered men... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Jack Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Get the media involved. You can always be an "anonymous" parent worried about your kids health, due to this one teams way of tackling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 I looked at the ref, who heard it, and the ref said to me, "If you go over there, I am going to have to suspend the game." Sounds like he was offering you an out. If it happens again, do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribo Posted October 2, 2008 Author Share Posted October 2, 2008 I actually went out to midfield while another one of my backs was being helped off the field and asked the opposing coach to come speak with me. He wouldn't and one of his assistant coaches yelled at me from his sideline "to be a man" That was going to be my suggestion...maybe next game, try to talk to the other coach before kickoff, during warm-ups perhaps. Horse-collars should be banned in youth competition...along with aluminum bats. You were going to recommend I be a man or that I talk to the other coach? Either way, I have an aluminum bat for the other coaches. I would ask that the commish ban it immediately. Some kid could get seriously hurt. Absent an immediate ban, get the email list for the coaches (even the guy in the last game) and circulate an email agreement among coaches to 1- Not teach the practice 2- Bench any kid that tackles that way for at least a half. If you get all the other coaches to sign on, my guess is the **** will cave. That would also be pretty powerful ammo for the commish to ban it immediately. I really like this idea and will move forward with it today. Thanks! Of course, this team we just played saw what was going on and didn't bench their guys. You might also point out to the commish that he is probably personally liable in the event that some kid breaks his neck since he is failing to properly consider saftey issues. Sadly, the fear of lawsuits gets things done far more quickly than does altruism. I did that in my latest e-mail to the commish, but he hasn't responded. I think this figures no one is going to get hurt so he isn't worried about it. That probably has a lot to do with the fact he doesn't have children. If he did, he'd know that knowingly putting children at unnecessary and avoidable risk is never OK. Sounds like you're blaming the officials a lot here -- but what did they do wrong? Nothing... This situation has two parts. First, the horse-collar tackling. I agree, there was nothing they could do about it. But they continually missed post-play tackles and even punches thrown away from plays. I've reffed at this level and older kids. I know how difficult it is, but refs must be able to see enough to keep control of the game and ensure the players' safety. If that had happened to me, I would have horse collared-that guy on the way to his car. That's just me, though. I've been known to overreact./Andy Bernard Believe me, I very badly wanted to do just that. But I have to do what's best for the kids in this case. I figure the a-holes will get theirs eventually. But, damn, I couldn't talk to anyone for about three or four minutes after that, as I had to force my self to simmer on the inside and not explode. Get the media involved. You can always be an "anonymous" parent worried about your kids health, due to this one teams way of tackling. That is always a good way to go. It is partially what I do for a living these days, and it is a very effective way to force change. I will consider it, but I have three young sons (9, 1 and 7 wks), and they all are going to want to play in this league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Me personally, I would have crossed the field and went to the other coach after the ref said he would suspend the game. Sure it sucks for the kids cause they want to play and its their game, but if the other team was playing dirty, and you felt someone could get seriously hurt, the game should be stopped before someone had the chance to get hurt I'm sorry, but any move that is banned at the pro level for being dangerous and causing injury should also be banned from the minor levels, especially when young children are involved. And anyone caught teaching their players dirty moves, or to play dirty should be thrown out of childrens leagues and banned perminantly from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 As a youth coach myself I say that while it SHOULD be banned....there is not a thing you can do about it till it officially is in your league. Which should be this year and it should be brought to your league officials attention. And yes....I would have taken the officials out to call the game before one of your players got hurt and make a statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewin Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 The real problem that I see is that there is not a rule against it. As long as there is not a rule against it, the refs can't call it illegal, and there will always be people/coaches who will try to get any advantage within the rules - even it it flies in the face of teaching, sportsmanship and yes even safety. That is just a fact. The success of any league is so dependent on the leadership and the people who run it. They probably 'dropped the ball' by not having the foresight to make this illegal. Based on the response you received from the commissioner - he feels it should be banned. Based on that - there is absolutely no reason why it can't be ruled illegal tomorrow. All it takes is a decision to be made and an email to all the coaches and officials saying it will no longer be allowed - *very* simple. You've made your request to the comissioner - and received his response about deferring it until next year. I would follow up and request that it be done away with immediately, based on the safety concerns which are pretty obvious and your first-hand experience with injuries during the game. Again - good leadership which will promptly address the situation would solve everything. If you don't get an acceptable response, I would send a note to all the coaches urging them to come to a consensus to ban it - make sure you are not pointing fingers at a particular coach/team and make a level-headed argument against. The proper behaviour during the game is an entirely different issue. - In my experience it is never a good idea to openly confront another coach during a game - and never ever yell or scream at another coach or staff. My experience also is that if a guy is an a-hole during a game - he's probaly going to be an a-hole before and after too - because he's probably just an a-hole - and isn't worth any of my time. - Personally I would never take my team off the field - to me all you would be doing is demoralizing your team - and letting the other team win (likely in a most satisfactory way to them BTW) - I know it is easier said than done - but if the horse collars were happening w/ regularity, maybe you could have found a way to neutralize them - running straight ahead instead of out wide etc. Just try to pound it right at them straight ahead and run over them not away from them. - There are times when questionable/dirty play etc. by the other team can actually be a rallying point for your team. Get your kids together and tell them "We are not going to let them bother us - we are going to play clean - and we are just going to be tougher than they are". I've found that youth sports can really mirror life in that many kids who are the biggest a-holes/bullies turn out to be the biggest pussies when other kids give it back to them and don't back down. Quick story - last year I was coaching in a 9-10 basketball league - full of ultra-competitive win at all cost "coaches". I had a very skilled team - and we played a team where it was obvious the other coach had told told his kids to *hard* foul my best kids any chance they got - sending scrubs running after my kids to hit them hard - in many cases sending them to the floor. It got pretty heated - so I called a time out and just told my kids we were a better team, and the other team knew that and thought the only way they could play with us was to do the ridiculous things they were doing - the refs weren't going to stop it or throw anyone out - so there was nothing we could do but go out and play clean but just be tougher than they were - and the kids were psyched about it - and we were tougher - and we kicked their ass. <One of my most satisfying moments in coaching youth sports happened that game. They had this ridiculous big burly kid (with a ridiculous big bush of bright red hair I will never forget) who was just running around hitting kids and literally in some cases putting them on the ground - barreling into kids and completely totallly out of control. Thought he was so tough - he was a joke. At one point I called the ref over and said that kid is not only a danger to other kids - he's a danger to himself. He was one of the biggest kids on the court, so my biggest kids were guarding him and getting abused - finally I called my son over and said to him "Shut him down". My son is not a big kid - but one of the toughest little SOBs I know. He is always my defensive specialist to shut down the other teams best players. In this case I knew my son would not back down (even though he was at least a foot shorter and probably 50lbs lighter) to the kid's crap and it would drive the kid crazy. So exactly that happened - and him and my son were kind of going back and forth for a while but my son wouldn't give him an inch. At one point the kid gets the ball and almost like it was a football tucks it and puts his shoulder down and tries to barrel into my son (with intent to injure). My son gracefully steps sideways and lets the kid careen completely out of control and slam to the ground in loud crash of moronic obnoxious uncoordinated flabby flesh. The gym falls silent - and the kid is down (he was a danger to himself afterall!) and then - wait for it - in the silence can be heard the beautiful sound of this little bastards cries and sobs because he got a boo boo! So he's laying there on the ground crying - it's all I could do to not explode in joy. As he gets up , tears streaming down his face, starting to slowly walk off the court, completely embarrassed and deflated and defeated - I was the first one to clap for him - I walked part way onto the court and got his eye and started to clap - a very loud, sarcastic, sloooww clap. Fat dirty cheap little bastard - Little tough guy! - Ha - makes me smile to this day> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribo Posted October 3, 2008 Author Share Posted October 3, 2008 stevewin, Thanks for the reply. You gave me some solid advice back when I started a thread here about my first year coaching youth football. Your words helped then, and I am sure they will again now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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