What if the Bills drafted Rothlisberger?

[PromoTheRobot]

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20060205/1019136.asp

 

Jerry Sullivan's article dives into the "what if" pool, asking how the Bills would be different if we had been able to draft Ben Rothlisberger instead of JP Losman.

 

This article makes the insinuation that if only we had Rothlisberger, we'd be playing in the Super Bowl, or at least making the playoffs. Don't let little details like the O-line, running back, defensive support, coaching and play calling get in the way. We all know that QB's win and lose games all by themselves.

 

If Ben Rothlisberger were playing for the Bills, he'd be getting the same treatment that JP Losman is getting now. We'd be a losing football team, and Big Ben would be labelled a bust.

 

PTR

[zow2]

I disagree,,,,the Steelers did not make Roethlisbeger into the player he is today. He makes the Steelers a much, much better team. Just look at them when he's out. They are not nearly as good. Their offense under Batch and Maddox was laughable. Big Ben was awesome in college and several of us were begging TD to do anything to draft him.

[Kelly the Dog]

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20060205/1019136.asp

 

Jerry Sullivan's article dives into the "what if" pool, asking how the Bills would be different if we had been able to draft Ben Rothlisberger instead of JP Losman.

 

This article makes the insinuation that if only we had Rothlisberger, we'd be playing in the Super Bowl, or at least making the playoffs.  Don't let little details like the O-line, running back, defensive support, coaching and play calling get in the way.  We all know that QB's win and lose games all by themselves.

 

If Ben Rothlisberger were playing for the Bills, he'd be getting the same treatment that JP Losman is getting now.  We'd be a losing football team, and Big Ben would be labelled a bust.

 

PTR

594892[/snapback]

What is most interesting about that, and I agree with your point totally, turned around, even though the Bills would be the same with Big Ben, JP Losman would very probably not be leading the Steelers as well as Big Ben is. And I am a big Losman fan. Ben happened upon a perfect situation for the kind of player he is, and he has excelled. It may be that three years from now, JP Losman will be a better quarterback than Big Ben. And would be better on both teams, because IMO he has better talent. I am not at all predicting that will happen, nor would I bet on it happening. It's just interesting to me that certain players are just great for certain kinds of teams, but are not nearly as great on different kinds of teams.

[PromoTheRobot]

I disagree,,,,the Steelers did not make Roethlisbeger into the player he is today.  He makes the Steelers a much, much better team.  Just look at them when he's out.  They are not nearly as good.  Their offense under Batch and Maddox was laughable.  Big Ben was awesome in college and several of us were begging TD to do anything to draft him.

594899[/snapback]

I'm not saying Big Ben isn't a great QB. I just think if you place him behind our line, he can't perform. Then add Mike Mularkey's genius play-calling and you get chicken **** from chicken salad.

 

PTR

[CoachChuckDickerson]

I don't think we would be in the Bowl, but we would have been much better than we were. The fact is some players make everyone around them better, Big Ben is one of those guys. He is a leader, something JP is sorely lacking.

[Solitary]

In TD's defense he tried hard to trade up, Houston would not budge because they wanted Dunta Robinson and knew the Jets would take him then. Any price to move higher would have been VERY steep and we would have all been crucifying him about it.

[Coach Tuesday]

I disagree with the premise. If we had drafted Big Ben and he, unlike JP, hadn't gotten hurt during preseason 2004, I bet he would've taken over for Bledsoe after the Raiders game and we very likely would have won just as many games, including the Steelers game (against JP?). We would've been in the playoffs in 2004, which totally changes the mindset of the 2005 team.

[MDH]

I disagree with the premise.  If we had drafted Big Ben and he, unlike JP, hadn't gotten hurt during preseason 2004, I bet he would've taken over for Bledsoe after the Raiders game and we very likely would have won just as many games, including the Steelers game (against JP?).  We would've been in the playoffs in 2004, which totally changes the mindset of the 2005 team.

594926[/snapback]

 

Have you seen the interviews with Ben where he stated that he was making ONE READ last year and if the guy wasn't open he was throwing it away or dumping it off to a back? The Steelers were in the championship game last year with a QB that couldn't read defenses at all. Yet, somehow, people think that it is Ben that makes the Steelers and not the other way around?

 

Don't get me wrong, Ben has make huge strides this year (particularly in the second half) and has proven that, if needed, he can make plays to win games. That being said he's not doing it alone. I have no clue if JP would be as good as Ben is on the Steelers but I have no doubt that if Ben was on the Bills he would be struggling and people would be labeling him a bust.

[GG]

I'm not saying Big Ben isn't a great QB.  I just think if you place him behind our line, he can't perform.  Then add Mike Mularkey's genius play-calling and you get chicken **** from chicken salad.

 

PTR

594909[/snapback]

 

If you had been watching Steelers games, you would have seen that Whisenhunt is more of a Mularkey protege than an Earhardt protege. Trick plays are a big component of Steelers play package. Their focus on the run game is as much of an imprint of their QB executing the basics, as their OL being able to execute blocks. They blew out the Colts on the strength of Big Ben, not Big Bus. Their offense went into the tank during the year when Ben was injured. Their offense looked eerily familiar to Buffalo's when Batch was under center, but the rest of their lineup was the same.

 

There is no substitute for having a great OL. But, please don't discount an effect that a great QB has on the offense and what a team can do.

 

I totally agree that the fortunes of the two teams would be vastly different at this point if the two QBs were switched.

[RVJ]

Im throwing in my two cents. Its Bill Cower that is the difference. He could lose

coordinators ever year . The teams that take them think there getting the next rising star coach...But its Cower that makes things tick period.

[Kelly the Dog]

If you had been watching Steelers games, you would have seen that Whisenhunt is more of a Mularkey protege than an Earhardt protege.  Trick plays are a big component of Steelers play package.  Their focus on the run game is as much of an imprint of their QB executing the basics, as their OL being able to execute blocks.  They blew out the Colts on the strength of Big Ben, not Big Bus.  Their offense went into the tank during the year when Ben was injured.  Their offense looked eerily familiar to Buffalo's when Batch was under center, but the rest of their lineup was the same.

 

There is no substitute for having a great OL.  But, please don't discount an effect that a great QB has on the offense and what a team can do.

 

I totally agree that the fortunes of the two teams would be vastly different at this point if the two QBs were switched.

594930[/snapback]

I guess I simply don't agree. I think if you put Losman on the Steelers, AND (and this is the key) ask him to do what they asked Big Ben to do, he would excel. Probably not as good as Rothlisberger at this point. But if you had the rush that the Steelers do, have the pass protection, have the play-calling, don't put the onus on the quarterback, JP could do the things that BR does. It's impossible to know, just an opinion.

 

Big Ben is told not to do too much. He usually looks to one guy. His real value, to me, is his running ability, and willingness to just get a couple yards when his receivers aren't open. And to make first downs. He gets a lot of time to throw, and to me, JP's problem is they gave him far too much to learn, far too much to do, and they put his life in danger asking him to drop back, read defenses under tremendous pressure and go to his 3rd or 4th option to WRs that often aren't open. The Steelers do not do that to BR, or they have the talent and the coaching to not put him in those situations. Losman doesnt throw bad passes to open guys because he can't throw, he does it because he's rattled by what has been put on him. Just my opinion.

[Orton's Arm]

The difference between Losman and Roethlisberger is that the Steelers are a much better team with Roethlisberger as opposed to Maddox, while the same can't be said of Losman versus Holcomb. I really do wish TD had paid whatever price Houston was demanding, because the Bills haven't had a QB since Jim Kelly. If Houston wanted a CB that badly, we could have given them our first round pick plus Nate Clements.

[MDH]

I guess I simply don't agree. I think if you put Losman on the Steelers, AND (and this is the key) ask him to do what they asked Big Ben to do, he would excel. Probably not as good as Rothlisberger at this point. But if you had the rush that the Steelers do, have the pass protection, have the play-calling, don't put the onus on the quarterback, JP could do the things that BR does. It's impossible to know, just an opinion.

 

Big Ben is told not to do too much. He usually looks to one guy. His real value, to me, is his running ability, and willingness to just get a couple yards when his receivers aren't open. And to make first downs. He gets a lot of time to throw, and to me, JP's problem is they gave him far too much to learn, far too much to do, and they put his life in danger asking him to drop back, read defenses under tremendous pressure and go to his 3rd or 4th option to WRs that often aren't open. The Steelers do not do that to BR, or they have the talent and the coaching to not put him in those situations. Losman doesnt throw bad passes to open guys because he can't throw, he does it because he's rattled by what has been put on him. Just my opinion.

594942[/snapback]

 

I think a great example of what you're talking about is when JP is asked to throw the long ball. On these plays he makes a very simple pre-snap read and knows exactly where he's going to throw the ball before the snap. On these throws he is very accurate and looks very confident. This isn't because he's accurate at throwing the long ball only, it's because he's comfortable with what he's doing.

 

The Steelers made Ben comfortable from day one by simplifying things for him.

[Snorom]

If the Bills drafted BR, right now there would be 50% of Bills fans saying he sucks and will never develope. This would go for any QB in the league past present or future. Our OL will continue to keep any QB from being anything above average.

 

Ben would have no chance of being the QB he is already in the NFL on the Bills with our OL.

[Olaf Fub]

I don't really think it's fair to call it a "what if" question. They would have had to trade up to get him and then didn't. It's not like they passed on him. (I know Sullivan makes that point in the article.)

 

But if we are going to play the game...

 

I would rather have Big Ben than JP. Like a lot of people, I was hoping he'd fall to the Bills that year but didn't think it was likely. He was a good QB prospect and I thought having a MAC QB on the Bills would drum up interest for UB.

 

What if the Bills traded up the year they took McGahee and drafted Troy Polamalu? If we're going to cherry pick off the Steelers, he's the guy I want. Polamalu is an absolute force.

 

I agree though, we wouldn't be a Super Bowl team. We'd be better but that might also mean we'd still have TD as GM.

[Bill from NYC]

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20060205/1019136.asp

 

Jerry Sullivan's article dives into the "what if" pool, asking how the Bills would be different if we had been able to draft Ben Rothlisberger instead of JP Losman.

 

This article makes the insinuation that if only we had Rothlisberger, we'd be playing in the Super Bowl, or at least making the playoffs.  Don't let little details like the O-line, running back, defensive support, coaching and play calling get in the way.  We all know that QB's win and lose games all by themselves.

 

If Ben Rothlisberger were playing for the Bills, he'd be getting the same treatment that JP Losman is getting now.  We'd be a losing football team, and Big Ben would be labelled a bust.

 

PTR

594892[/snapback]

 

I have been trying to tell you this for about 7 years Promo. Good to have you on board.

Enjoy the day and enjoy the game!

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

I disagree,,,,the Steelers did not make Roethlisbeger into the player he is today.  He makes the Steelers a much, much better team.  Just look at them when he's out.  They are not nearly as good.  Their offense under Batch and Maddox was laughable.  Big Ben was awesome in college and several of us were begging TD to do anything to draft him.

594899[/snapback]

 

Given your strong pronouncement that the Steelers were a much much better team with RoboQB, I decided to take your advice and look at the results when he was out.

 

The results were:

 

RoboQB was out 3 games.

 

In those games the Steelers got 2 Ws and 1 L

 

When he came back the Steelers got 2 Ls and 1 W.

 

OK, on the face of it the results were clearly not "much much better" with RoboQB than without him. In fact they were clearly worse. However, though in the end Ws and Ls are the true measure of a team, there are some details which merit a deeper look.

 

In the 3 games without Big Ben we saw:

 

1. @ GB W 20-10 - The article Pitts website describes the Curtain winning comfortably on the road with back-up QB Batch going 9/16 and this over 50% not racking up a lot of yards and his performance being workmanlike at best. The teams big problem was a failure to move the ball on 3rd down. Cowher gave the typical good cop/bad cop assessment of Batch praising him for the back-up playing QB on the road to a W (though certainly against a bad team IMHO).

 

It's hard to seem much real difference in Robo v. Batch's prescence here unless there is some style point you want to make from watching the game (which I did not) that you can make a reasonable case that Robo's prescence makes the team much much better.

 

2. Browns W 34-21- We have good news and bad news for Batch- he had a very good game going 13 for 19 for 150 yards in the first half. He also had the worse news as he got injured and 3rd stringer Maddox came in to finish off the lowly Browns for what the Steelers web article called a convincing victory.

 

Certainly against bad teams it made no difference who the QB was and probably the case that the team would have been much much better with Big Ben would at least be funny to read,

 

3. @ Ravens L 13-16- Maddox sucked and the team lost a close one in OT on the road. If there is a case where playing a 3rd string QB probably made the difference this is the one (however, it is unknowable whether Pitts might have pulled this one out with only an upgrade to their back-up QB. A judgement about whether they are much much better with Big Ben might be demonstrated by different results or different performance when he comes back.

 

4. @ Colts L 7 - 26- Big Ben comes back and in the first game that directly answers your challenge to look at the Curtain with and without him, the results argue completely against your point. Granted he was just back and playing on the road against what was then the best team in the NFL, but Big Ben's Charlie Batch like passing #s in this game are not those of a QB who makes the team much much better. In fact, the main difference here is that Batch got Ws against bad team and RoboQB was outclassed in this one.

 

5. Bengals L 31-38- again give credit where credit is due as the completion # and yardage passing from Big Ben were great. Yet, even the Steelers own website article faults him for making bad decision which led to 3 INTs one of which put the game away. The performance at best can be called not bad, but 3 INTs leading to the all important L is simply not the much much better (not even just much better and actually not even better) than Pitts produced and played with back-up QBs. Granted the quality of the competition is different, but you set the standards with your claim and the results do not even make it up a lower standard of saying that the Steelers did better with him than without him.

 

6. Bears W 21-10- Finally Big Ben upon his return plays QB in a W and it is against a good team. However, again if you go in more depth with even the Steelers article, it sings the praises of a RETURN to their old winning style which is to follow Bettis by handing him the ball. For our purposes, even the hometown article is notable as after it goo-goos all over Bettis, it finally gives some credit to the passing game, but it hails Parkers work with a screen pass he ran in and Ward being praised by them for running after the catch and does not even mention RoboQB by name.

 

So a look at the game results shows the opposite of your assertion. Further, a look at the Steelers own report on the game highlights other Steelers as the key to their good play rather than Big Ben.

 

Upon considering your arguments but not taking them at face value they argue for the opposite position than the one you and Jerry Sullivan take.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

The difference between Losman and Roethlisberger is that the Steelers are a much better team with Roethlisberger as opposed to Maddox, while the same can't be said of Losman versus Holcomb. I really do wish TD had paid whatever price Houston was demanding, because the Bills haven't had a QB since Jim Kelly. If Houston wanted a CB that badly, we could have given them our first round pick plus Nate Clements.

594943[/snapback]

 

The over-addiction of fans to wanting a marquee QB and the disastrous decisions made by the Bills braintrust as they try to get another Jim Kelly:

 

1. Ralph and Butler whistled in the dark and waited at least a year too long in getting and developing a replacement.

2. Butler gave away a 3rd round pick for nothing when it becme clear TC was not Jimbo.

3. Butler screwed up our cap management big time and ignited a QB controversy that still haunts this team by signing RJ to a big bonus which made their promises to Flutie a lie and resulted in an outcome which was some of th poorest cap management I have seen.

4. TD made what I consider (IMHO) a good move in getting Bledsoe instead of Jeff Blake or Chris Chandler, but made a horrendous move in extending him when he should have just called his good 02/horrendous 03 a wash for the Bills. Even the pain of cutting him at this point was lessened in the real world by his work replacing the 1st round choice spent on him by tagging and trading PP. However, the QB addiction led TD to try to make this work.

5. TD instead made the dumb extension worse by cutting him with the resulting cap hit and then promoting JP to starter in a method JP even says was not the right way for him to get the job. TD seemed to value using 2005 for JP training more than he valued it for getting Ws (even though it was clear when he extended him that Bledsoe was not Jim Kelly caliber).

 

It really has been the continual fruitless and foolish search for the next Jimbo which has kiiled this team's production.

[BADOLBILZ]

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20060205/1019136.asp

 

Jerry Sullivan's article dives into the "what if" pool, asking how the Bills would be different if we had been able to draft Ben Rothlisberger instead of JP Losman.

 

This article makes the insinuation that if only we had Rothlisberger, we'd be playing in the Super Bowl, or at least making the playoffs.  Don't let little details like the O-line, running back, defensive support, coaching and play calling get in the way.  We all know that QB's win and lose games all by themselves.

 

If Ben Rothlisberger were playing for the Bills, he'd be getting the same treatment that JP Losman is getting now.  We'd be a losing football team, and Big Ben would be labelled a bust.

 

PTR

594892[/snapback]

 

Roethlisberger was a much better prospect than Losman. JP got hyped because he was mentioned in the same class as Roethlisberger and Eli, which was unfair because if you had seen them play in college, it was no comparison. That's the nature of the draft though, you see it all the time here with statements like: "if D'Brickashaw is gone, then I hope they trade down and get Marcus McNeill or Eric Winston". Every player is different and the next option isn't necessarily just a slightly lesser player.

 

I'm a JP fan. He has the ability to become very good IN TIME, but Roethlisberger SHOULD be a HOF'er. We see Dan Marino and Boomer Esiason on tv together every week, and that's the type of comparison I would make with Big Ben vs. Losman. Marino was great, but Boomer was pretty good, and plenty good enough to win a SB with. If we had Roethlisberger, we would be much better off now, but all is not lost just because we don't.

[GG]

I guess I simply don't agree. I think if you put Losman on the Steelers, AND (and this is the key) ask him to do what they asked Big Ben to do, he would excel. Probably not as good as Rothlisberger at this point. But if you had the rush that the Steelers do, have the pass protection, have the play-calling, don't put the onus on the quarterback, JP could do the things that BR does. It's impossible to know, just an opinion.

 

Big Ben is told not to do too much. He usually looks to one guy. His real value, to me, is his running ability, and willingness to just get a couple yards when his receivers aren't open. And to make first downs. He gets a lot of time to throw, and to me, JP's problem is they gave him far too much to learn, far too much to do, and they put his life in danger asking him to drop back, read defenses under tremendous pressure and go to his 3rd or 4th option to WRs that often aren't open. The Steelers do not do that to BR, or they have the talent and the coaching to not put him in those situations. Losman doesnt throw bad passes to open guys because he can't throw, he does it because he's rattled by what has been put on him. Just my opinion.

594942[/snapback]

 

Even if we put in the proper context of comparing Losman this year vs Ben last year, Ben comes out on top. It is not fair to judge the two given their relative stages of development, because Ben is simply far more advanced in applying his understanding of the game when he's on the field. Losman is a better athlete, and tries to overcompensate for his knowledge as a QB. i don't know if I would totally agree with Badol that Ben has a higher upside than Losman, but at this point in their careers, it's not even close.

 

As to what is being asked of the two, it's roughly the same. Pitt & Buffalo run virtually identical offenses. Losman was not asked to do much more than what Ben was asked to do last year. Unfortunately, Losman's results in trying to do the little things that Ben does very well (and which are usually ignored in their comparisons) were severely lacking in the early part of the season. That was the critical juncture of getting the team on the right foot for the season and get the veteran buy in. But, after Losman crapped out vs Atlanta & New Orleans, it was over.

 

I don't think we should underestimate the impact of how Losman "won" the job had on the team, and their effort to help him out. We can sit in judgement and call out the players for lack of professionalism, but it won't change the reality that Bills' veterans did not play very hard for Losman early on.