Bills don't "need" a WR, they need to use the ones they have better

[Big Turk]

More and more what I am starting to believe is this team has enough at the WR spot and is just misusing them.

 

There is no way you can tell me all of the following players under Brady who have shown the ability to get deep and make plays downfield before and after they have been here just suddenly forgot how to play WR and do that here:

 

• Stefon Diggs (had a phenomenal start to season under Dorsey with multiple 100+ yard games then went mostly silent under Brady)
• MVS (couldn't utilize his deep speed or chose not to then goes to NO after being cut and has multiple weeks in a row I am watching in game updates of him catching 50+ yard TD passes)
• Elijah Moore (always productive even with revolving trashcans throwing to him over his career, 4.3 speed, open a LOT in this offense downfield)
• Josh Palmer (saw plenty of highlights with Herbert targeting and connecting on deep balls with him)
• Gabe Davis (one of the best deep ball WR's in the NFL)

 

Probably some others...

 

Some of this is intentional as Brady prioritizes ball-control, clock-control offense where you take layups over and over again, minimize TOs, run the ball down the other teams throats and then rely on a handful of Allen plays a game to usually win comfortably. 

 

I believe this is also intentional on the way McD wants to play because it limits our TOs, we are super efficient at scoring points and TDs, it limits the opponent possessions meaning they have to score more efficiently than they typically do to keep up and we also are good at taking the ball away many times which further limits their possessions. 

 

All that is good and makes logical sense. But this STILL doesn't excuse the complete ignoring all too often of using what you have to attack the intermediate areas of the field to throw a barrage of short passes. 

 

Take this example in the Chiefs game: 

 

Moore is WIDE OPEN in the deep middle and if Allen hits him in stride it's at least another 5-10 yards on top of that.  What happens? He checks it down to Hawes, who is equally open, but the pass goes awry and it's incomplete...and it's not this one example I am harping on to be clear...Allen was awesome in the Chiefs game. It's the Bills intentionally choose not to make themselves more versatile too often when they don't need to, almost as if they take pride in telling the D "here is what we are going to do, now come and stop us." Most times they can't, but sometimes they can and I don't think they have properly developed their answer to when that happens in critical moments and they are far too slow to shift to it when it DOES happen in those moments. 

 

My thoughts are that Moore needs to be playing a bigger role in this offense and Coleman needs to be playing a lesser one. Palmer needs to be getting some of these type of routes (which, to be fair, he started to in the ATL game before getting hurt). Currently it seems the only person they use on these outside of Moore every so often, is Kincaid, which is great, but it's like c'mon...let's open it up a little here when we need to.  I mean even Samuel showed he has the ability in the Broncos playoff game where he took a deep over to the house and smoke DPOY Surtain...

 

Maybe they are saving it for the playoffs when they need it, but IMO at this point, I think it's mismanaging who they ALREADY HAVE at WR more than them needing another WR that is the bigger problem.

 

Bills seemingly favoring the bigger WRs that help them in run blocking and trying to prevent giving "tells" to the other team that we are passing by bringing in Moore and Samuel instead of Coleman and Shavers but at some point you have to be willing to give up a little in what you do amazingly well to add to the passing game.

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Big Turk

[NoSaint]

I think two things can be true- they need better receivers but haven’t fully optimized what they have 

[T.E.]

I remain perplexed about the usage of Knox. Guy used to be a TD machine, and now he doesn't seem to get any looks.

[Big Turk]

1 minute ago, NoSaint said:

I think two things can be true- they need better receivers but haven’t fully optimized what they have 

 

I honestly think they have enough if they just used them better. Moore or Samuel against most CB4's should win.

Edited 2 hours ago by Big Turk

[boyst]

I will try not to make this a run-on sentence or get too long winded. Doing this while being lazy and doing voice to text

 

Coleman needs to be off the field more at the wide out position. It's just not working or scaring anyone. He can go out there on certain Downs to help lock and maintain some mystery on offense but he needs to be tucked inside or off the field all together. 

 

The outside needs to have speed and people to draw defenses deep and the off balance coverage. Josh might look there and capitalize on a deep ball threat. Gabe Davis will be the one to do this better then Coleman but who knows if Davis will get there this year 

Putting samuel, palmer, Moore, or someone else on the outside that can draw coverage with over the top help to be bracketed. 

We are not seeing much from Shakir right now and using him wisely needs to be considered. He's overvalued by the fan base but extremely talented. Nonetheless putting in Coleman as a big slot or second slot guy will draw in the defense a little more. This gives us options to run outside, or push Coleman to the boundary where he's big enough to get a contested catch or over the Middle where he can survive the big licks by a linebacker. 

 

We are misusing our talent plain and simple. 

[NoSaint]

7 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

I honestly think they have enough if they just used them better. Moore or Samuel against most CB4's should win.

love any mismatches, but WR4 winning against CB4 is usually more of a nice added feature than a focal point of sustainable success 

[Big Turk]

1 minute ago, NoSaint said:

love any mismatches, but WR4 winning against CB4 is usually more of a nice added feature than a focal point of sustainable success 

 

My point is that those players can be used in those roles more often, but they choose to use Shavers and Coleman instead, which are obviously due to their run game blocking and I get it...

 

The point I am trying to make is that we have shifted too far in one direction with it and need to be balanced, especially at the times when the defense has answers, which isn't often, but does happen.  All too often, it seems their plan it to simply double down. 

Edited 2 hours ago by Big Turk

[vtnatefootball11]

7 minutes ago, T.E. said:

I remain perplexed about the usage of Knox. Guy used to be a TD machine, and now he doesn't seem to get any looks.

 

He's never been a TD machine. He had one great year TD wise when he was the only TE playing and had some fluky scores and a lot of goal line targets. That offseason Beane gave him a huge contract top 5 TE money, which is why so many Bills fans were incensed (at least the fans that aren't delusional). It was a TERRIBLE contract, it's still a huge egg on Beane's face. Knox's friendship will Allen probably played a part I'm sure, to be fair it was an uncharacteristic mistake for Beane. The fact that we spent a first round pick on a TE a year later is an indictment on that contract and admission by Beane he screwed up. Kincaid is clearly the better player, particularly from a receiving standpoint, not sure why you would expect Knox to ever be a big part of the offense again. 

[SoCal Deek]

As I mentioned in the multi page Shaheed thread….its an absolute shame/travesty that they just spent millions to bring in Palmer only to have him become a virtual afterthought. Isn’t he supposed to be Josh’s WR2? 

[Donuts and Doritos]

Passing game should go through Kincaid. He's a matchup win.

[boyst]

5 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

love any mismatches, but WR4 winning against CB4 is usually more of a nice added feature than a focal point of sustainable success 

The talent of a number 4 wide receiver versus #4 cornerback cornerback is staggering. On top of this usually it is the fourth wide receiver against a linebacker. The drop off in skill set talent is tremendous. Few linebackers can cover a wide receiver even if it's the fourth on the depth chart. More rare yet in today's NFL is that a safety can cover a number four. The number for safety is generally a depth guy with a well-rounded toolbox. The number four wide receiver is usually a one tool specialist; being elusive, being fast, large body, something.

For that kind of matchup you will get amazing opportunities. A David Tyree opportunity. A guy who could come in and make a valuable contribution. 

[BillsShredder83]

22 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

More and more what I am starting to believe is this team has enough at the WR spot and is just misusing them.

 

There is no way you can tell me all of the following players under Brady who have shown the ability to get deep and make plays downfield before and after they have been here just suddenly forgot how to play WR and do that here:

 

• Stefon Diggs (had a phenomenal start to season under Dorsey with multiple 100+ yard games then went mostly silent under Brady)
• MVS (couldn't utilize his deep speed or chose not to then goes to NO after being cut and has multiple weeks in a row I am watching in game updates of him catching 50+ yard TD passes)
• Elijah Moore (always productive even with revolving trashcans throwing to him over his career, 4.3 speed, open a LOT in this offense downfield)
• Josh Palmer (saw plenty of highlights with Herbert targeting and connecting on deep balls with him)
• Gabe Davis (one of the best deep ball WR's in the NFL)

 

Probably some others...

 

Some of this is intentional as Brady prioritizes ball-control, clock-control offense where you take layups over and over again, minimize TOs, run the ball down the other teams throats and then rely on a handful of Allen plays a game to usually win comfortably. 

 

I believe this is also intentional on the way McD wants to play because it limits our TOs, we are super efficient at scoring points and TDs, it limits the opponent possessions meaning they have to score more efficiently than they typically do to keep up and we also are good at taking the ball away many times which further limits their possessions. 

 

All that is good and makes logical sense. But this STILL doesn't excuse the complete ignoring all too often of using what you have to attack the intermediate areas of the field to throw a barrage of short passes. 

 

Take this example in the Chiefs game: 

 

Moore is WIDE OPEN in the deep middle and if Allen hits him in stride it's at least another 5-10 yards on top of that.  What happens? He checks it down to Hawes, who is equally open, but the pass goes awry and it's incomplete...and it's not this one example I am harping on to be clear...Allen was awesome in the Chiefs game. It's the Bills intentionally choose not to make themselves more versatile too often when they don't need to, almost as if they take pride in telling the D "here is what we are going to do, now come and stop us." Most times they can't, but sometimes they can and I don't think they have properly developed their answer to when that happens in critical moments and they are far too slow to shift to it when it DOES happen in those moments. 

 

My thoughts are that Moore needs to be playing a bigger role in this offense and Coleman needs to be playing a lesser one. Palmer needs to be getting some of these type of routes (which, to be fair, he started to in the ATL game before getting hurt). Currently it seems the only person they use on these outside of Moore every so often, is Kincaid, which is great, but it's like c'mon...let's open it up a little here when we need to.  I mean even Samuel showed he has the ability in the Broncos playoff game where he took a deep over to the house and smoke DPOY Surtain...

 

Maybe they are saving it for the playoffs when they need it, but IMO at this point, I think it's mismanaging who they ALREADY HAVE at WR more than them needing another WR that is the bigger problem.

 

Bills seemingly favoring the bigger WRs that help them in run blocking and trying to prevent giving "tells" to the other team that we are passing by bringing in Moore and Samuel instead of Coleman and Shavers but at some point you have to be willing to give up a little in what you do amazingly well to add to the passing game.

 

I like this play design! Samuel takes top of. Shakir draws some attention out in the flat, nothing crazy but it made the LBs freeze a bit. Hawes brings some attention forward.

 

All that left Moore wide open and woulda been in space with his speed 

[hondo in seattle]

It's not a coincidence that many receivers - Diggs, Moore, Samuel, etc. - were more productive before they played for Brady than they were under him.  Brady isn't adept at scheming a downfield passing game.    

 

It's also true that we don't have an elite receiving corps.  (But it's more talented than the stats may suggest).  

And it's also true that Brady and McDermott seem to prefer a low-risk, balanced attack that minimizes TOs while scoring a bunch of points.  

 

And this is true too: the Bills see a lot of 2-high shells because opponents don't want cannon-armed Josh to heave the ball down the field.  

 

As I see it, the Bills general crappiness in the downfield passing game is a multifactorial issue.  However, I'm glad Big Turk posted about the misuse of our wide receivers because that's a part of it that doesn't get enough attention.  

 

 

[T.E.]

8 minutes ago, vtnatefootball11 said:

 

He's never been a TD machine. He had one great year TD wise when he was the only TE playing and had some fluky scores and a lot of goal line targets. That offseason Beane gave him a huge contract top 5 TE money, which is why so many Bills fans were incensed (at least the fans that aren't delusional). It was a TERRIBLE contract, it's still a huge egg on Beane's face. Knox's friendship will Allen probably played a part I'm sure, to be fair it was an uncharacteristic mistake for Beane. The fact that we spent a first round pick on a TE a year later is an indictment on that contract and admission by Beane he screwed up. Kincaid is clearly the better player, particularly from a receiving standpoint, not sure why you would expect Knox to ever be a big part of the offense again. 

Knox had 20 receiving TDs his first four seasons at the TE position. Chris Olave, who most Bills fans coveted to fix this offense, has 13 TDs over the same time period as his team's #1 WR.

 

Don't act like Knox wasn't somewhat effective before Brady took the playcalling reigns.

[ngbills]

One higher quality receiver can do a lot more than a bunch of average ones. Much of what the qb is doing depends on what happens pre snap. When you have Samuel and Moore etc out there the D has a lot more flexibility. 

[Big Turk]

2 minutes ago, T.E. said:

Knox had 20 receiving TDs his first four seasons at the TE position. Chris Olave, who most Bills fans coveted to fix this offense, has 13 TDs over the same time period as his team's #1 WR.

 

Don't act like Knox wasn't somewhat effective before Brady took the playcalling reigns.

 

Knox had a lot of key TD in high leverage situations in big games against KC and also in late drives to give them the lead. 

[akcash]

If Samuel can stay healthy he’s moving just fine out there right now. We’re just not calling their numbers with the success we’re having running the ball and the increased utilization of the TEs right now

[Big Turk]

9 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

As I mentioned in the multi page Shaheed thread….its an absolute shame/travesty that they just spent millions to bring in Palmer only to have him become a virtual afterthought. Isn’t he supposed to be Josh’s WR2? 

 

Palmer was starting to come on in that Falcons game and then got hurt...excited to see if that continues once he is back.

[Royale with Cheese]

Elijah Moore averaged 60 receptions for the last two seasons with QB’s in Cleveland.  For him not to have really any production here is weird.  
 

He gets open.  He has speed.  He has good hands.

 

I think Brady overthinks and doesn’t take the obvious.
 

Palmer and Moore should have good production in this offense.  

[milfandcookies]

Never shoulda gotten rid of Diggs that was dumb