The primary problem with the long conversions

[Simon]

Just now, MasterStrategist said:

You picked the game they held a future 1st ballot HOF to <50% competition rate to call out the secondary?

 

 

 

They are a patchwork mess right now and if the DL hadn't been repeatedly working over a weak KC OL I think they may have ended up in big trouble.

My point is to address the lack of cohesion by committing to your ultimate starters now instead of continuing to juggle your way through it.

[boyst]

4 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

Ya I've never understood that.

If I am a DC on 3rd and long, I'm trying to press the receivers to disrupt the timing with two safeties over the top.

Max Hairston will begin to do this as he finds his way in the league I would imagine. Benford isn't the physical type to do this, white is not able to anymore.  Strong will help.

 

Also, very impressed how good Cam Lewis was. I said before the game he is greatly underrated and almost criminally so.

 

His game last year to come in and shut KC down in the second half allowed us to almost win it 

[BillsFan130]

1 minute ago, boyst said:

Max Hairston will begin to do this as he finds his way in the league I would imagine. Benford isn't the physical type to do this, white is not able to anymore.  Strong will help.

 

Also, very impressed how good Cam Lewis was. I said before the game he is greatly underrated and almost criminally so.

 

His game last year to come in and shut KC down in the second half allowed us to almost win it 

Yep agreed. Taron unfortunately has been a nightmare this season as well.

 

I don't know if it's a bold thing to say, but I think cam is an upgrade over Taron. At least at this point

[MasterStrategist]

4 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

They are a patchwork mess right now and if the DL hadn't been repeatedly working over a weak KC OL I think they may have ended up in big trouble.

My point is to address the lack of cohesion by committing to your ultimate starters now instead of continuing to juggle your way through it.

I disagree.

 

They aren't a patchwork mess.   They will continue to get Max more % of snaps.  But they played well today --- Bishop, on down.  Many guys stepped up.  KC had been rolling and it wasnt just the front 4.  Mahomes had time on many occasions , and we got key PBUs, Bishop and others.

 

Have you considered that McD is finally calling the defense again and the secondary is getting dialed in?  They have a plan on getting Max more involved and Hancock as well.  

 

2 weeks in a row where defense steps the F up. and we are calling the secondary " a patchwork mess"?  Weird timing, I strongly disagree.

[boyst]

8 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

Yep agreed. Taron unfortunately has been a nightmare this season as well.

 

I don't know if it's a bold thing to say, but I think cam is an upgrade over Taron. At least at this point

I'm holding off on Johnson because I think he was over tasked. I think he turns it around. He's too smart not to 

[Simon]

Just now, MasterStrategist said:

I disagree.

 

They aren't a patchwork mess.   They will continue to get Max more % of snaps.  But they played well today --- Bishop, on down.  Many guys stepped up.  KC had been rolling and it wasnt just the front 4.  Mahomes had time on many occasions , and we got key PBUs, Bishop and others.

 

Have you considered that McD is finally calling the defense again and the secondary is getting dialed in?  They have a plan on getting Max more involved and Hancock as well.  

 

2 weeks in a row where defense steps the F up. and we are calling the secondary " a patchwork mess"?  Weird timing, I strongly disagree.

 

There's just too much confusion out there at key moments. It's better with McD having the call sheet, but it's still not good enough to get us where we want to go, imo.

The sooner they start committing to the younger guys to start and stay out there, the better off they're going to end up down the road.

[BillsFan130]

Just now, boyst said:

I'm holding off on Johnson because I think he was over tasked. I think he turns it around. He's too smart not to 

Let's hope. I think he's just cooked though.

 

29 years old with a lot of wear and tear going against twitchy slot receivers.

 

I hope you're right 

[ScotSHO]

I want to see the all 22 on the 4th and 17 conversion - I'm fairly sure KC intentionally left Bosa unblocked and he reacted to it like any DE would.  He backed off for a second and was looking for the screen, which is silly on 4th & 17 but it worked for KC. His instincts kicked in and it slowed his pass rush down - I don't blame him but it was crafty by ol' Andy.

[MasterStrategist]

1 minute ago, Simon said:

 

There's just too much confusion out there at key moments. It's better with McD having the call sheet, but it's still not good enough to get us where we want to go, imo.

The sooner they start committing to the younger guys to start and stay out there, the better off they're going to end up down the road.

Too much confusion?

 

For who, just us?  Mahomes goes below 50% and its just "our confusion"?

 

This was a masterclass by McD.  And best game from Bishop weve seen.  Secondary was dialed in for majority of game....21 points given up, id say we will take that any game against KC

 

Younger guys, I would agree about Max.  Hes on his way to getting more reps tho...whats the complaint there? 

 

Hancock, hes a rookie and what has he done to say get him on the field 100% right now?  He is learning and getting almost all reps in pass downs --- I'd say this whole point of giving young guys more reps is overblown.  Max will be getting most reps by playoff time and Hancock is getting the $ money downs entirely --- whats the issue here?

[NeverOutNick]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

Bernard unfortunately was the culprit on at least a couple of those 3rd and longs today. Regardless of his contract and the C on his jersey, they need Thompson to be the full time starter when he's healthy. Awkward situation but you have to play the better performing player.

 

I agree they need to put Hairston out there full time. He hasn't had to cover any big time pass catchers yet (unless I missed him covering Rice tonight) but he's been erasing his matchup players. You can tell he's confident and full of energy.

 

Hancock I think I am okay rotating for now. He looks a bit lost and slow to react at times. Safety as we have seen is not an easy position to learn in this defense.

 

I wonder if Cam might just be better than Taron at this point... The Carolina tape was brutally bad for him. Maybe give him another week to "recover" and see how it goes.

I was tracking until you pulled out the cam line. Cam Lewis is just plain awful. Maybe Taron has lost a step and we need to play more 4-3 or slide someone else to nickel but no way is Cam Lewis on the field good for us defensively

[Not at the table Karlos]

6 hours ago, boyst said:

I'm holding off on Johnson because I think he was over tasked. I think he turns it around. He's too smart not to 

He started showing signs of slowing down last year and has slowed down a lot this year. He’s smart but is that enough when your body is beaten up and slowing down? 

Edited 11 hours ago by Not at the table Karlos

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, Tulsabillsfanz said:

For me, one big reason we give up too many 3rd & longs is because we don’t blitz enough on 3rd & long…..or 4th & long.
 

 

This is definitely not the problem. 

7 hours ago, DJB said:

It’s because we play soft zone and guys have huge spaces to run free because we are trying to cover so much of the field

 

Zone D sucks on 3rd and long 

 

There was definitely one third and long where we played press man which allowed the Chiefs to pick Ingram at the line. Indeed last night we played press on a fair few 3rd downs. 

 

The long third down to Kelce was a breakdown in zone defense. The 4th and 17 was not on that it was on the defensive front who misplayed the play.

[Sojourner]

7 hours ago, boyst said:

Max Hairston will begin to do this as he finds his way in the league I would imagine. Benford isn't the physical type to do this, white is not able to anymore.  Strong will help.

 

Also, very impressed how good Cam Lewis was. I said before the game he is greatly underrated and almost criminally so.

 

His game last year to come in and shut KC down in the second half allowed us to almost win it 

Absolutely. #39 was solid in filling in for Taron. Underrated indeed. 

Edited 10 hours ago by Sojourner

[Ayjent]

I’ll say what has been increasingly obvious. Milano and Bernard are not playing well in coverage, nor really any aspect of their games. Both look like they have little confidence and are almost invisible when it comes tos to positive plays on D and too visible when a play is made by the other team. It suckes because prime Milano was so good. I think he is a warrior to come back from those injuries and fight through the ones he has had but he isn’t the heat seeking middle he used to be.  There is no explosive read and react. Bernard just hasn’t been good with any consistency and I thought it was telling when the D looked much improved without him against Carolina’s formidable running game. 

Edited 9 hours ago by Ayjent

[machine gun kelly]

9 hours ago, Simon said:

There's a complete lack of cohesion in the secondary right now, and before our WGR-quality whiners chime in, it's not anybody's fault.

They are trying to work 4 new guys (two of them rookies) into 2 spots all at the same time as a result of injuries. They are playing most of their snaps every game with a crew of DBs who are in places they're not used to and have had no chance to consistently play with each other at any time this year. Toss in losing Taron and now both their nickel and dime are being manned by yet two more new guys in roles they're not accustomed to and their lack of familiarity with their roles and each other which ratchets up that lack of cohesion by yet another order of magnitude.

Their communication is not there, their pass-offs are balky, they're ending up in the wrong part of their zones because of it and it's inevitably going to be a messy, messy mess in the short term, particularly with a DC who has already been struggling for the whole year to have them on the same page.

I think they can ameliorate it by just making 3 permanent switches right now and stop trying to pull off the juggling act while you acclimate new guys in. Just tear off the bandaid tomorrow morning and start Hairston and Hancock with Tre as the full time dimeback (and primary backup) and leave those guys in those positions for 100% of the game. Cam Lewis is the primary backup at both nickel/dime with Poyer backing up both safety positions.

Do it right now and let these guys get an opportunity to learn and get better together and maybe by December you've got a unit that is starting to gel and getting better every week right at the time you need them to be doing that. I appreciate working Hairston and Hancock in slowly as green rookies, but it's November and the time for that is done with. It's hurting this team right now, and is going to for several weeks, but if you make an immediate commitment to your final configuration with no more dithering they can shorten the pain of that transition and still have a potentially good unit when we're really going to need it.

Well Simon, I enjoy WGR in the mornings for the Jeremy and Joe show as well as the Sal led extra point show as it reminds me of Buffalo.  I’ve been away for 30+ years so it brings me a little closer to home.  With that said, I agree with your assessment in that Hancock and Hairston are new to their positions, and Cam is a backup.  Bishop is coming into his own.  I expect with each week they will keep getting better.  Taron will be back.  Benford played well.

 

We can’t expect all of these new bodies to be in total sync right away.  On the positive side, the defensive line for the first time in the McD era has looked well.  Now losing Oliver last week, and Hoecht yesterday was two serious blows to it.  AJE has had some real flashes, GROOT has looked great.  It’s more of a quiet impact, but Ogunjobi has made an impact.  Even Jermaine Phillips has been good.  We really need to get Tre and Poyer off the field.  Let them be player coaches, but no snaps unless someone’s hurt.

 

Since the Fins and Jet’s are dumpster fires, the next big test is the Bucs.  They are banged up as well.  I hear more on their injuries on,y in that I live here.  Everything is amplified here just like I’m sure most other cities.

[GunnerBill]

I definitely think we should be getting Hairston in full time sooner rather than later. I'm fine for now with them time sharing.... but by the time we hit December this needs to be Max's job. 

 

However, I'd just hold horses on the rest. I don't think Bishop's improvement as Poyer has come in alongside him is a coincidence. Po has always been known as an excellent communicator back there and I think that is making a massive difference to Bishop being in the right spot to let his physical gifts (which have always been there) allow him to make plays. 

 

And I think Cam has played well at nickel. Frankly he has played better than Taron this year. They need to make sure they have packages that get Hancock some experience but he isn't ready to just be thrown out there yet. He is still working through some growing pains. They are using him more at safety anyway, but I still think our long term nickel should be his future home. 

[BananaB]

We have had problems on 3rd and long for a couple years now. 

[stevewin]

10 hours ago, Simon said:

There's a complete lack of cohesion in the secondary right now, and before our WGR-quality whiners chime in, it's not anybody's fault.

They are trying to work 4 new guys (two of them rookies) into 2 spots all at the same time as a result of injuries. They are playing most of their snaps every game with a crew of DBs who are in places they're not used to and have had no chance to consistently play with each other at any time this year. Toss in losing Taron and now both their nickel and dime are being manned by yet two more new guys in roles they're not accustomed to and their lack of familiarity with their roles and each other which ratchets up that lack of cohesion by yet another order of magnitude.

Their communication is not there, their pass-offs are balky, they're ending up in the wrong part of their zones because of it and it's inevitably going to be a messy, messy mess in the short term, particularly with a DC who has already been struggling for the whole year to have them on the same page.

I think they can ameliorate it by just making 3 permanent switches right now and stop trying to pull off the juggling act while you acclimate new guys in. Just tear off the bandaid tomorrow morning and start Hairston and Hancock with Tre as the full time dimeback (and primary backup) and leave those guys in those positions for 100% of the game. Cam Lewis is the primary backup at both nickel/dime with Poyer backing up both safety positions.

Do it right now and let these guys get an opportunity to learn and get better together and maybe by December you've got a unit that is starting to gel and getting better every week right at the time you need them to be doing that. I appreciate working Hairston and Hancock in slowly as green rookies, but it's November and the time for that is done with. It's hurting this team right now, and is going to for several weeks, but if you make an immediate commitment to your final configuration with no more dithering they can shorten the pain of that transition and still have a potentially good unit when we're really going to need it.

The communication issues were also exacerbated by the crowd noise- and it wasn't just communication in the secondary.  Losing Hoecht and having 2 PS DT's didn't help either (but all our LBs finished a game!).  I'm definitely with you - pick a lineup and get them to gel together, unfortunately all the injuries (and suspensions) have made it a struggle all year.  Hopefully down the stretch all the turnover slows

[kkim0904]

1 hour ago, Ayjent said:

I’ll say what has been increasingly obvious. Milano and Bernard are not playing well in coverage, nor really any aspect of their games. Both look like they have little confidence and are almost invisible when it comes tos to positive plays on D and too visible when a play is made by the other team. It suckes because prime Milano was so good. I think he is a warrior to come back from those injuries and fight through the ones he has had but he isn’t the heat seeking middle he used to be.  There is no explosive read and react. Bernard just hasn’t been good with any consistency and I thought it was telling when the D looked much improved without him against Carolina’s formidable running game. 

They were invisible making tackles or ineffective in the pass coverage in the entire game.  If it wasn't strong performance of our D Line stopping the run, KC would ran all over us, like Baltimore game 

Edited 7 hours ago by kkim0904

[SoTier]

9 hours ago, ScotSHO said:

I want to see the all 22 on the 4th and 17 conversion - I'm fairly sure KC intentionally left Bosa unblocked and he reacted to it like any DE would.  He backed off for a second and was looking for the screen, which is silly on 4th & 17 but it worked for KC. His instincts kicked in and it slowed his pass rush down - I don't blame him but it was crafty by ol' Andy.

 

I think that exact scenario was mentioned by someone on the broadcast when it happened.  It makes sense, too.  It would also work best on good/great veteran pass rushers like Bosa.