Allen vs Mahomes, is this a controversial take?

[zow2]

8 minutes ago, Buffalo4Life01 said:

 

Lurking on this board probably gives them as much enjoyment and entertainment as their regular season wins.

[JP51]

Yeah, I think if you put Allen on the Chiefs he wins at least 3 ... I think if you put Mahomes on the Bills you get the same results...   To me Andy Reid is far superior to McD and Spags is way better as a D Co than Frazier... and I don't even want to bring Babiches name into the same conversation as Spags.

[DaVinci]

Whos drafting these players on KC defense

[Billl]

17 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

They literally blew us out in our first playoff matchup. 38-24 and it was only that close because we scored a garbage time TD. Get out of here with "they don't try to score points unless the game is close." That's patently ridiculous and you know it.

The Bills scored 500 points that year for crying out loud.  Of course the Chiefs had to plan on lighting up the scoreboard.  I laid out 15 postseason games for you, and you picked out one 14 point win from the 2020 season in order to reject the idea that the Chiefs are generally able to score more points if that’s what they need to do to win.  I don’t know how many times you have to witness it before you stop thinking it’s “patently ridiculous”.  It must be that a coach who had 1 playoff win in the previous 10 seasons miraculously became the best postseason coach on the planet the day Mahomes stepped on the field.

Edited August 27 by Billl

[HappyDays]

3 minutes ago, Billl said:

I laid out 15 postseason games for you, and you picked out one 14 point win from the 2020 season in order to reject the idea that the Chiefs are generally able to score more points if that’s what they need to do to win.

 

The only thing you "proved" with that list of games is that KC regularly blew out playoff opponents when they had Tyreek Hill in his prime, and then didn't as much after they traded him. Big shocker, that. In fact there are still 3 playoff games they won by 2+ scores after trading him. Along the way they also got blown out in two Super Bowls where I guess according to you they just decided not to try and score.

 

I'm sorry but you're not going to convince anybody of that ridiculous argument.

[QB Bills]

56 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

You’re saying critical thinking when you are talking about hypotheticals that have zero way to be proven. If Allen was the qb with 3 SB wins, 5 SB appearances, multiple MVPs, coming off a 16-1 SB season where he was surrounded by garbage, we would think a fanbase saying their qb who never went to a SB was better than him was crazy. (terrible sentence structure!)

 

Allen is the greatest qb the Bills have ever had. We won’t trade him for anyone.  But discounting a guy who is the running for greatest qb ever just makes look sad. 

Again, you're confusing team success and player accolades with individual talent. Nobody in their right mind would say Allen has had a more successful career than Mahomes. Mahomes obviously has more accomplishments. And if that's your definition of better, then yes, Mahomes is better. 

 

My contention is, all things being equal, if you were to put them both in the exact same situation, Allen would outperform him because I feel he's more talented.

[Billl]

5 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

The only thing you "proved" with that list of games is that KC regularly blew out playoff opponents when they had Tyreek Hill in his prime, and then didn't as much after they traded him. Big shocker, that. In fact there are still 3 playoff games they won by 2+ scores after trading him. Along the way they also got blown out in two Super Bowls where I guess according to you they just decided not to try and score.

 

I'm sorry but you're not going to convince anybody of that ridiculous argument.

Just a massive coincidence that their lowest scoring games of each postseason nearly perfectly correlate to the games where they allowed the fewest amount of points and that their highest scoring games also correlate to the games where they allowed the most points.  What are the odds?

 

It’s certainly not by design that the Chiefs scored TDs on the first two possessions against Baltimore and then ran the ball 32 times when the Ravens offense couldn’t score for 8 straight possessions.  What made it even weirder is that when Baltimore kicked a FG to make it a 7 point game, the Chiefs were seemingly miraculously able to put together a 6 play, 50 yard drive before kneeling down deep in Ravens territory.  By God, Kansas City scored 17 points in that game, so if the Ravens had scored 18 the Chiefs would have looked like fools as they knelt down on the ball for an 18-17 defeat.

[mjt328]

If you could take a dozen of the greatest NFL minds in the history of the game (all whom have passed away and know nothing about today's stars)... then put them in a room with just game film... and give them no other context about the players they are watching (Super Bowl rings, awards, stats, etc.).... then at the end of the day, I believe most would say Josh Allen was the best Quarterback in the NFL.  

 

Of course, I would probably have said the same thing about Peyton Manning against Tom Brady 15-20 years ago.  

 

The problem is, most people are going to factor the Super Bowl rings and head/head matchups in very heavily.  And that's an area that Allen and Manning have both fallen very short in, when compared against Mahomes and Brady.  

 

[Gregg]

3 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

If you could take a dozen of the greatest NFL minds in the history of the game (all whom have passed away and know nothing about today's stars)... then put them in a room with just game film... and give them no other context about the players they are watching (Super Bowl rings, awards, stats, etc.).... then at the end of the day, I believe most would say Josh Allen was the best Quarterback in the NFL.  

 

Of course, I would probably have said the same thing about Peyton Manning against Tom Brady 15-20 years ago.  

 

The problem is, most people are going to factor the Super Bowl rings and head/head matchups in very heavily.  And that's an area that Allen and Manning have both fallen very short in, when compared against Mahomes and Brady.  

 

 

I hope Allen can tie Manning as both brothers have two Super Bowl wins respectively. I also hope the Bills don't "Marino" Allen's career. 

[Success]

It bugs me when people say it's a slam dunk that Mahomes is a better QB than Allen because "rings."

 

No matter how you feel about McDermott & this coaching staff - there is a pretty significant disparity between Reid & Spags, and McDermott & McDermott.  If you go back through SB champions & participants, it's usually the better coaches that make it more consistently.  I like McDermott, but it's just a fact that he's not at the level of what KC has.

 

Personally, I think Allen is a little better than Mahomes, but it's pretty razor thin no matter which side you're on. I wouldn't do a straight up trade between those guys.

 

[SoonerBillsFan]

3 hours ago, Special K said:

This is not meant to be a slight at McDermott, but if you take Andy Reid away from Mahomes and give him to Josh Allen, the Bills would likely be the ones with 3 Super Bowl titles right now.

 

I truly think Andy Reid is the difference in these two very closely matched QB's and teams in general.

You are 100% correct.

[TH3]

3 hours ago, Special K said:

This is not meant to be a slight at McDermott, but if you take Andy Reid away from Mahomes and give him to Josh Allen, the Bills would likely be the ones with 3 Super Bowl titles right now.

 

I truly think Andy Reid is the difference in these two very closely matched QB's and teams in general.

So Andy gets decimated by injury defenses, bad reffing, no Kelce, no cheetah, Tyler Bass too?

[hondo in seattle]

3 hours ago, Special K said:

This is not meant to be a slight at McDermott, but if you take Andy Reid away from Mahomes and give him to Josh Allen, the Bills would likely be the ones with 3 Super Bowl titles right now.

 

I truly think Andy Reid is the difference in these two very closely matched QB's and teams in general.

 

You have to give KC credit even if you don't like them.  They have the Big Four: strong front office, strong head coach, strong coordinator for the other side of the ball, and great QB.  

[HappyDays]

43 minutes ago, Billl said:

Just a massive coincidence that their lowest scoring games of each postseason nearly perfectly correlate to the games where they allowed the fewest amount of points and that their highest scoring games also correlate to the games where they allowed the most points.  What are the odds?

 

Their lowest scoring games correlates to when they play better defenses. Shocking. They give up more points when they face playoff Josh Allen. Again, shocking.

 

Sorry man but this is classic confirmation bias. You're trying to stretch the numbers to fit what you already believe to be true. Nothing about their playoff history indicates that if the Bills held them to 20 points, Allen and the Bills offense would randomly struggle to get past 17. That doesn't make any kind of sense at all. There is no sentient will of football that shapes KC/BUF games to be more exciting. If our defense simply held up its end and the offense did what it always does against them we would beat you guys by multiple scores.

[Utah John]

4 hours ago, zow2 said:

Yeah, I kind of need a little break from roster talk.

 

I think at this stage of their careers, Allen is the better downfield passer and clearly the better runner (although Pat is a good scrambler when he needs to be and certainly has a good downfield arm when he uses it)..  However, I think many of us have seen that Mahomes is the better dink and dunker.  He's always been.   At the end of those close playoff games when KC needs a critical TD or FG, it's the dink and dunk plus Andy Reid play call mastery that gives KC a slight edge.  We've had two seasons in a row end with the ball in our hands, and the Bills can't take what the D gives and execute a short dump off to get the needed yardage.  I'm just wondering if the Bills start working on that more this season,,, or maybe they keep some plays in their back pocket for critical playoff moments.

At the end of the playoff game against the Chiefs, the Bills got wrapped up in a manhood contest, basically telling the Chiefs we're going to run a push tush and see if you can stop it.  The opportunity to pop a quick pass for a first down or even to hit an open receiver deep was right there.  

 

The fact that the Bills DID earn a first down on that play, and certainly had one on the play before (the Kincaid reception), and got jobbed by the refs, doesn't take away from the fact that they didn't do what Mahomes/Reid does, hit em where they ain't.

[Mikie2times]

2 hours ago, Billl said:

It’s not an Andy vs McDermott issue, though.  The Chiefs score more against the Bills than they do against other teams in the postseason because they have to in order to win.  If the Bills scored fewer points, so would the Chiefs.  Since Mahomes has been the QB, this is what has happened in his postseason wins:

 

2019:

Chiefs give up 20 and score 31

Chiefs give up 24 and score 35

Chiefs give up 31 and score 51

 

2020:

Chiefs give up 17 and score 22

Chiefs give up 24 and score 38

 

2021:

Chiefs give 21 and score 42

Chiefs give up 36 and score 42

 

2022:

Chiefs give up 20 and score 23

Chiefs give up 20 and score 27

Chiefs give up 35 and score 38

 

2023:

Chiefs give up 7 and score 26

Chiefs give up 10 and score 17

Chiefs give up 24 and score 27

 

2024:

Chiefs give up 14 and score 23

Chiefs give up 29 and score 32

 

There number of points the Chiefs score in the postseason is incredibly correlated to how many points they need to score.  When the Chiefs beat the Ravens 17-10 2 years ago, it wasn’t that the Ravens shut the Chiefs down.  The Chiefs started out the game TD, TD, and then went into a shell because Baltimore couldn’t score.  They can’t play that way against Josh and the Bills because they can put up so many points.  Andy and Mahomes have to hit the throttle in those games.  If Allen were to get injured prior to a playoff game against Kansas City this year, the Chiefs aren’t going to gameplan to put up 40 points.  They’re going to try to get on top early and win a 24-13 type game while not giving Buffalo a short field due to turnovers.

The Chiefs have had 6 total points vs the Bills in all of the playoff match ups. The per drive efficiency, YPA, and total metrics are literally off the charts. For what your saying to be the reason the Chiefs would have to be saying in lower scoring playoff games like Houston last year or Baltimore the year before, lets just not be as efficient offensively. Which just doesn't make sense.

 

No competent team would intentionally run a less efficient offense as a result of the opponent having a less efficient offense. The concept you speak of is more about pace of play. Which yes, the Bills and Chiefs games would typically have a higher pace of play, but Buffalo has been intentionally trying to shorten the game script as a result of the Chiefs offensive efficiency over the last two years. It still hasn't worked and hasn't mattered.

[london_bills]

4 hours ago, zow2 said:

Yeah, I kind of need a little break from roster talk.

 

I think at this stage of their careers, Allen is the better downfield passer and clearly the better runner (although Pat is a good scrambler when he needs to be and certainly has a good downfield arm when he uses it)..  However, I think many of us have seen that Mahomes is the better dink and dunker.  He's always been.   At the end of those close playoff games when KC needs a critical TD or FG, it's the dink and dunk plus Andy Reid play call mastery that gives KC a slight edge.  We've had two seasons in a row end with the ball in our hands, and the Bills can't take what the D gives and execute a short dump off to get the needed yardage.  I'm just wondering if the Bills start working on that more this season,,, or maybe they keep some plays in their back pocket for critical playoff moments.

I'm sorry but Allen is not a better down field passer than Mahomes. Allens deep ball is disappointing most of the time, I'm the biggest Allen and Bills homer and I think Allen deserved MVP but Mahomes is that little more consistent and accurate with the longer stuff

Edited August 27 by london_bills

[Billl]

6 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

The Chiefs have had 6 total points vs the Bills in all of the playoff match ups. The per drive efficiency, YPA, and total metrics are literally off the charts. For what your saying to be the reason the Chiefs would have to be saying in lower scoring playoff games like Houston last year or Baltimore the year before, lets just not be as efficient offensively. Which just doesn't make sense.

 

No competent team would intentionally run a less efficient offense as a result of the opponent having a less efficient offense. The concept you speak of is more about pace of play. Which yes, the Bills and Chiefs games would typically have a higher pace of play, but Buffalo has been intentionally trying to shorten the game script as a result of the Chiefs offensive efficiency over the last two years. It still hasn't worked and hasn't mattered.

It’s more than just pace of play, though.  It’s the willingness to take risks pushing the ball downfield, going for it on 4th down, letting Mahomes run, and using your “special occasion” plays.  The Ravens couldn’t move the ball against the Chiefs in the AFCCG 2 years ago, so Reid was happy to sit on the lead and lean on his defense right up to the point when he needed a drive to ice the game.  He wasn’t going to take risks on the offensive side of the ball and give Baltimore a short field.

 

That’s not an option when playing Buffalo.  The Chiefs played an entirely different brand of offensive football in last year’s AFCCG because they had to.  They went for it in the second quarter on 4th down from their own 39.  Mahomes had 11 carries.  They knew they were going to have to score a ton of points, so they gambled a little more than they would have had the circumstances been different.

 

This shouldn’t even be controversial except to those who abjectly refuse to give credit to the winning team and instead reduce year after year after year of the same ending to “your team only won because of (insert reason that doesn’t involve Mahomes being a historically great QB)”.  It’s like watching Scooby Doo for 7 season and always being shocked that the ghost is a guy in a rubber mask.  Yet time and time again, when the team needs it most, there’s a WR in the end zone all alone for a TD on 3rd and goal from the 1.  Why was that guy so open?  It’s because they spent an entire season putting something on film so that they could break tendency in the biggest moment of the season.  Why was Josh so surprised that the Chiefs brought a strong side blitz on 4th down?  It’s because they spent the entire game (and the game in the regular season) blitzing from the weak side.  It’s what they do.

[Wolfgang]

We have the quarterback...

 

We just haven't had the defense...

 

 

[Mikie2times]

2 minutes ago, Billl said:

It’s more than just pace of play, though.  It’s the willingness to take risks pushing the ball downfield, going for it on 4th down, letting Mahomes run, and using your “special occasion” plays.  The Ravens couldn’t move the ball against the Chiefs in the AFCCG 2 years ago, so Reid was happy to sit on the lead and lean on his defense right up to the point when he needed a drive to ice the game.  He wasn’t going to take risks on the offensive side of the ball and give Baltimore a short field.

 

That’s not an option when playing Buffalo.  The Chiefs played an entirely different brand of offensive football in last year’s AFCCG because they had to.  They went for it in the second quarter on 4th down from their own 39.  Mahomes had 11 carries.  They knew they were going to have to score a ton of points, so they gambled a little more than they would have had the circumstances been different.

 

This shouldn’t even be controversial except to those who abjectly refuse to give credit to the winning team and instead reduce year after year after year of the same ending to “your team only won because of (insert reason that doesn’t involve Mahomes being a historically great QB)”.  It’s like watching Scooby Doo for 7 season and always being shocked that the ghost is a guy in a rubber mask.  Yet time and time again, when the team needs it most, there’s a WR in the end zone all alone for a TD on 3rd and goal from the 1.  Why was that guy so open?  It’s because they spent an entire season putting something on film so that they could break tendency in the biggest moment of the season.  Why was Josh so surprised that the Chiefs brought a strong side blitz on 4th down?  It’s because they spent the entire game (and the game in the regular season) blitzing from the weak side.  It’s what they do.

I'm not failing to give KC credit and sure, do you "press" a bit more vs a team you think can score a lot of points? Sure. That however doesn't explain what we are seeing in these match ups. Buffalo's defense regresses to the extent that it can't be explained by any one thing. Certainly a huge part of that is KC.