Ranking the 15 greatest Bills ever

[Kirby Jackson]

11 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

By that standard Moulds shouldn't even make it then.  Lofton was important but he wasn't the WR1 was like Diggs.  Allen and his connection were the engine that drove the best four years of consistent offensive performance we've ever had.  Plus, he was absolutely vital to Josh's development.  To me four pro bowl caliber years leading to your team at minimum winning the division title four times in a row and going 2-2 in the Divisional round in what was a tougher conference now compared to the 90's is more impressive.  Lofton only went over 1,000 yards once in the first three Super Bowl years.  I'd put Diggs ahead of him.

Bills Diggs is absolutely ahead of the Bills version of Lofton. It’s not close. One was the guy and the other was a role player. If you want to argue Reed over Diggs, okay, but no chance on Lofton. Moulds is in an interesting one as well but I’d probably have Bills Diggs over him. In my lifetime (at least that I remember): Reed, Diggs, Moulds, Stevie, Lofton, Beasley

[OldTimer1960]

19 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Can’t open it but here’s my list in order

 

Bruce

OJ

Thurman

Kelly

Shaw

Reed

Allen

Joe D

Tasker

Sestak

Bennett

Butler

Lofton

Gilchrist

Hull

 

Jerry Butler was great - it’s a shame he got hurt early in his career.

[oldmanfan]

17 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Bills Diggs is absolutely ahead of the Bills version of Lofton. It’s not close. One was the guy and the other was a role player. If you want to argue Reed over Diggs, okay, but no chance on Lofton. Moulds is in an interesting one as well but I’d probably have Bills Diggs over him. In my lifetime (at least that I remember): Reed, Diggs, Moulds, Stevie, Lofton, Beasley

Well I disagree.  Are you going to beat me up or something?

[Kirby Jackson]

2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Well I disagree.  Are you going to beat me up or something?

No but I am going to question if you are judging with how you feel about one vs. how they performed. Diggs was one of the best WRs in the NFL when he was here. Lofton was a role player. He had 1 really good year in Buffalo (1991). He was 2nd on the team and 9th in the NFL in yards and TDs. Diggs had multiple years here well above that. He did that as the focus of the defense, not the 2nd best pass catcher. Diggs is an idiot. He was a much better player in a Bills uniform than Lofton. I’d love to here your argument for Lofton. 

[MJS]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

No but I am going to question if you are judging with how you feel about one vs. how they performed. Diggs was one of the best WRs in the NFL when he was here. Lofton was a role player. He had 1 really good year in Buffalo (1991). He was 2nd on the team and 9th in the NFL in yards and TDs. Diggs had multiple years here well above that. He did that as the focus of the defense, not the 2nd best pass catcher. Diggs is an idiot. He was a much better player in a Bills uniform than Lofton. I’d love to here your argument for Lofton. 

Yeah, I've been a little confused seeing Lofton so much. He didn't play here all that long, for one thing. Good player, but he was here at the tail end of his career to play a role.

[Doc Brown]

23 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Bills Diggs is absolutely ahead of the Bills version of Lofton. It’s not close. One was the guy and the other was a role player. If you want to argue Reed over Diggs, okay, but no chance on Lofton. Moulds is in an interesting one as well but I’d probably have Bills Diggs over him. In my lifetime (at least that I remember): Reed, Diggs, Moulds, Stevie, Lofton, Beasley

If we're talking about the early 90's to now I'd pry go Reed, Diggs, Moulds, Lofton, Stevie, Evans, Beasley, Brown, and Price.  I do view making the playoffs as important though with Lofton ahead of Stevie and Evans.

[iccrewman112]

A name I haven’t seen is Ruben Brown. He was an 8x pro bowler while with Buffalo as well as 2x all-pro.

[Kirby Jackson]

22 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

If we're talking about the early 90's to now I'd pry go Reed, Diggs, Moulds, Lofton, Stevie, Evans, Beasley, Brown, and Price.  I do view making the playoffs as important though with Lofton ahead of Stevie and Evans.

Some great additions there. I forgot about Evans candidly 🤣🤣. Your placement of him seems fair. Brown and Price were my next 2 in no particular order. Well done!!

Edited 17 hours ago by Kirby Jackson

[BearNorth]

I took a shot at this about a month ago, used PFR AV rankings

 

1            Bruce Smith

2           Thurman Thomas

3           Jim Kelly

4           Andre Reed

5           Josh Allen

6           Kent Hull

7           O.J. Simpson

8           Kyle Williams

9           Joe Ferguson

10          Fred Smerlas

11           Mike Stratton

12          Jim Ritcher

13          Cornelius Bennett

14          Eric Moulds

15          Darryl Talley

 

 

Looks pretty solid to me.  I was a big Cookie fan, but he didn't play in the NFL long enough. Sestak's knees gave out or he would be high on this list.

 

 

Edited 17 hours ago by BearNorth

[oldmanfan]

30 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

No but I am going to question if you are judging with how you feel about one vs. how they performed. Diggs was one of the best WRs in the NFL when he was here. Lofton was a role player. He had 1 really good year in Buffalo (1991). He was 2nd on the team and 9th in the NFL in yards and TDs. Diggs had multiple years here well above that. He did that as the focus of the defense, not the 2nd best pass catcher. Diggs is an idiot. He was a much better player in a Bills uniform than Lofton. I’d love to here your argument for Lofton. 

I give preference to guys with HOF talent.  I can see arguments for Diggs over him.

7 minutes ago, iccrewman112 said:

A name I haven’t seen is Ruben Brown. He was an 8x pro bowler while with Buffalo as well as 2x all-pro.

Had to make a choice between him and Hull on my list.  Brown was outstanding 

[FireChans]

31 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

No but I am going to question if you are judging with how you feel about one vs. how they performed. Diggs was one of the best WRs in the NFL when he was here. Lofton was a role player. He had 1 really good year in Buffalo (1991). He was 2nd on the team and 9th in the NFL in yards and TDs. Diggs had multiple years here well above that. He did that as the focus of the defense, not the 2nd best pass catcher. Diggs is an idiot. He was a much better player in a Bills uniform than Lofton. I’d love to here your argument for Lofton. 

A lot of that SB run team is just overrated. 

 

I love Steve Tasker. Great ST guy. He is competing with Moorman for maybe the best ST player in Bills history.  He is in no way a greater or more valuable Bill than Kyle WIlliams or Bennet.

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

A lot of that SB run team is just overrated. 

 

I love Steve Tasker. Great ST guy. He is competing with Moorman for maybe the best ST player in Bills history.  He is in no way a greater or more valuable Bill than Kyle WIlliams or Bennet.

I had Tasker on my list.  I’ll admit he’s one of my all time favorite Bills, but he’s on my list because he might be the best ST player (not kicker or returner) of all time.

20 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Can’t open it but here’s my list in order

 

Bruce

OJ

Thurman

Kelly

Shaw

Reed

Allen

Joe D

Tasker

Sestak

Bennett

Butler

Lofton

Gilchrist

Hull

 

Lot of folks have put some other great names.  If I was going to add 5 more they’d be Brown, K Williams, Smerlas, Stratton, and Diggs

[Kirby Jackson]

15 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I give preference to guys with HOF talent.  I can see arguments for Diggs over him.

Fair and I always look at this through the lens of their Bills career vs. whole career. Lofton’a career was a HOF career. Ironically, TO would be WR1 if we used their whole careers. He was fine in his season here but he wasn’t the guy that took over a Super Bowl on 1 leg.

[jwhit34]

Everyone has mentioned the best ones. 

 

Hall of Famers + Allen: Bruce Smith, OJ, Allen, Thurman Thomas, Joe D, Billy Shaw, Andre Reed, Jim Kelly. That's 8.

 

Bennett, Talley, Moulds, Smerlas and Hull are probably the next ones because of their combined longevity, excellence and value to the team. Smerlas should be a borderline HOF veterans committee consideration. He was even T5 for DPOY once and I think 3-4 All Pros and 5 or so Pro Bowls.

 

We're at 13

 

The last two I would put in the group are Tasker and Kemp. Unique players without the stats of others. Tasker redefined special teams players and Kemp was the leader on the 2 AFL championship teams. 

 

That leaves a lot of guys out but that's how I would put together the list. The one I would question the most is Kemp but fairly evaluating QBs from that era is difficult. Look at the stats for Unitas, Starr and Namath, but they all meant a lot to their teams. 

 

The 3 I think of that would almost certainly would have been in strong consideration for the top 15 if not for injury would be Robert James (who you could make a case for sneaking in at 15 or instead of Bennett or Talley), Sam Cowart and Jerry Butler, in that order. I think Cowart would have been better than Bennett and Talley

Edited 12 hours ago by jwhit34

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, jwhit34 said:

Everyone has mentioned the best ones. 

 

Hall of Famers + Allen: Bruce Smith, OJ, Allen, Thurman Thomas, Joe D, Billy Shaw, Andre Reed, Jim Kelly. That's 8.

 

Bennett, Talley, Moulds, Smerlas and Hull are probably the next one because of their combined longevity, excellence and value to the team. Smerlas should be a borderline HOF veterans committee consideration. He was even T5 for DPOY once and I think 3-4 All Pros and 5 or so Pro Bowls.

 

We're at 13

 

The last two I would put in the group are Tasker and Kemp. Unique players without the stats of others. Tasker redefine special teams players and Kemp was the leader on the 2 AFL championship teams. 

 

That leaves a lot of guys out but that's how I would put together the list. The one I would question the most is Kemp but fairly evaluating QBs from that era is difficult. Look at the stats for Unitas, Starr and Namath, but they all meant a lot to their teams. 

 

The 3 I think of that would almost certainly would have been in strong consideration for the top 15 if not for injury would be Robert James (who you could make a case for sneaking in at 15 or instead of Bennett or Talley), Sam Cowart and Jerry Butler, in that order. I think Cowart would have been better than Bennett and Talley

Bobby James is another great name

Just now, Doc Brown said:

Owens was more talented than Lofton and Reed if you're going by HOF talent.

Was never an Owens fan for some reason.

[Doc Brown]

4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Was never an Owens fan for some reason.

I despised the guy and I'm so glad we're no longer giving a WR diva on the decline the key to the city.  LOL.  I'd say in his prime he was the best WR to put on a Bills uniform even though his prime wasn't as a Bill that one season.

[oldmanfan]

13 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

I despised the guy and I'm so glad we're no longer giving a WR diva on the decline the key to the city.  LOL.  I'd say in his prime he was the best WR to put on a Bills uniform even though his prime wasn't as a Bill that one season.

If the argument is which did more in a Bills uniform then Lofton did much more than Owens.  As for best WR in a Bills uni I’d have Reed, Butler, Lofton, Diggs, and Moulds as top 5. 

[Alphadawg7]

22 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

The list is clearly made by outsiders. No knowledgable Bills fan has Kelly over Allen. 
 

The top 3 are: Bruce, OJ and Josh (in whatever order). Thurman is next. Andre and Kelly are the next 2. Joe D follows them. From there, it’s a little subjective.

 

I agree...and I will say this, Allen at 6 was a joke.  They labeled this the greatest "players" not greatest "careers".  And even though he is 29, he has already established he is the greatest individual player to put on a Bills jersey of all time.  

 

You nailed the top 3 - And I think the order starts with Josh and then you can interchange Bruce or OJ at 2 and 3.  But I would go Josh, OJ, Bruce.  Thurman is without a doubt next at 4 too, so you nailed that again.  

 

And I think Reed and Kelly next were clear choices too, even in no particular order.  

 

So yeah, I agree with everything you said here, although I think Diggs has a case for 7th.  

 

Once you get past these guys it does get murky and very subjective, especially since a lot of the most talented guys either didn't play here that long (came late, left in FA, etc) or were saddled with a terrible era of football that over shadowed them or hurt their production (Moulds, Kyle, etc).  For example, guys like Gilmore, Peters, Diggs, McCoy, etc. are subjective in where you can rank them despite their immense talents.  

Edited 15 hours ago by Alphadawg7

[Alphadawg7]

11 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

If the argument is which did more in a Bills uniform then Lofton did much more than Owens.  As for best WR in a Bills uni I’d have Reed, Butler, Lofton, Diggs, and Moulds as top 5. 

 

I think the top 4 WR's in Bills history were:  Reed, Diggs, Moulds, and Evans in that order.  After that it gets more subjective with guys like Lofton, Butler, Cole, Stevie, etc as to who is 5th.  

[oldmanfan]

4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I agree...and I will say this, Allen at 6 was a joke.  They labeled this the greatest "players" not greatest "careers".  And even though he is 29, he has already established he is the greatest individual player to put on a Bills jersey of all time.  

 

You nailed the top 3 - And I think the order starts with Josh and then you can interchange Bruce or OJ at 2 and 3.  But I would go Josh, OJ, Bruce.  Thurman is without a doubt next at 4 too, so you nailed that again.  

 

And I think Reed and Kelly at 4 and 5 are were clear choices too, even in no particular order.  

 

So yeah, I agree with everything you said here, although I think Diggs has a case for 6.  

 

Once you get past these guys it does get murky and very subjective, especially since a lot of the most talented guys either didn't play here that long (came late, left in FA, etc) or were saddled with a terrible era of football that over shadowed them or hurt their production (Moulds, Kyle, etc).  For example, guys like Gilmore, Peters, Diggs, McCoy, etc. are subjective in where you can rank them despite their immense talents.  

Look, I love Josh.  We all love Josh.  But to say at this point he is definitively the best Bills player ever over Bruce and/or OJ is kind of silly.

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I think the top 4 WR's in Bills history were:  Reed, Diggs, Moulds, and Evans in that order.  After that it gets more subjective with guys like Lofton, Butler, Cole, Stevie, etc as to who is 5th.  

I would ask if you are old enough to have watched Jerry Butler.  Because those who watched him know he was much better than Lee Evans.  Same with Lofton.