James Cook absent from OTA's

[Einstein's Dog]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You say it is ridiculous amount. I don't. I say it's the top end of his market, sure. But ridiculous? Not for me. I don't think any of the other guys that renewed this offseason did. But Diggs and Poyer got new deals after playing the social media game in previous seasons. 

To me it's a ridiculous amount, and I think to most fans it looks unreasonable - at the time it was $3M more than Barkley.  And it's beyond the top end of the 2 down RB market.  It signifies Cook wants to be paid at the top tier of the 3 down workhorse RB market - which he is not currently in (thus the Shakir example).

 

I still can't figure out why Cook's team put that out there - what good did they think could come from it.  As for social media games, the Diggs thing turned the Bills fanbase against him.  And Poyer's wasn't much better, seemingly orchestrated by his wife.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Einstein's Dog said:

To me it's a ridiculous amount, and I think to most fans it looks unreasonable - at the time it was $3M more than Barkley.  And it's beyond the top end of the 2 down RB market.  It signifies Cook wants to be paid at the top tier of the 3 down workhorse RB market - which he is not currently in (thus the Shakir example).

 

I still can't figure out why Cook's team put that out there - what good did they think could come from it.  As for social media games, the Diggs thing turned the Bills fanbase against him.  And Poyer's wasn't much better, seemingly orchestrated by his wife.

 

Yea fans hat the business side of football. But it exists. You can't play stop the world I want to get off. 

 

If fans think $15m is "ridiculous" they are not following the NFL market. Is it high? Yes. Is it more than you'd like to pay him? Yes. But it isn't ridiculous. And I don't break the market down by 2 down vs 3 down. I break it down between guys who are a genuine threat to go the distance and guys who are just chain movers. Cook is the former. 

[DrDawkinstein]

16 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea fans hat the business side of football. But it exists. You can't play stop the world I want to get off. 

 

If fans think $15m is "ridiculous" they are not following the NFL market. Is it high? Yes. Is it more than you'd like to pay him? Yes. But it isn't ridiculous. And I don't break the market down by 2 down vs 3 down. I break it down between guys who are a genuine threat to go the distance and guys who are just chain movers. Cook is the former. 

 

This entire 2-down/3-down back argument is the fanbase grasping at straws to try to devalue him after being offended by some innocuous posts on social media

 

Doesnt make any sense for anyone who has watched him play, saw his performance last year, and still wants to comment on what he brings.

 

Like I pointed out up-thread, he was still the most productive/used player outside of Josh. No one else comes close to his number of touches. Regardless of what downs they came on.

[DCofNC]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

 

 

And no, McDermott doesn't play favourites. He plays the guys who can help the team win. 

Thats where I don’t agree.  He plays the least risky player, which doesn’t give you the best chance to win, it just lowers the mistakes.  When a guy hasn’t been in camp and the other guys are doing well, he won’t displace the worker.

[Einstein's Dog]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

This entire 2-down/3-down back argument is the fanbase grasping at straws to try to devalue him after being offended by some innocuous posts on social media

 

Doesnt make any sense for anyone who has watched him play, saw his performance last year, and still wants to comment on what he brings.

 

Like I pointed out up-thread, he was still the most productive/used player outside of Josh. No one else comes close to his number of touches. Regardless of what downs they came on.

How about we just look at the market price of a 200 carry 1,000 yd-ish back - (+ 50 rec for 300 yds) because that is what he has been, and that is the role the Bills have in mind for him.  And that is not a $15M role.

 

The useless bit of information about Cook's relative usage on our team is irrelevant.  Without Cook someone else would be the second most productive player.  And if that player got 200 carries and around 1,000 yards they too would not get $15M, no matter how exciting they look doing it.

 

While you can downplay the 2 v 3 downs, you don't mention Cook not being out there during the crunch drive vs KC.  Lets not pretend the coaches didn't want their best personnel out there - and Cook was not on the field.  A $15M player should be out there in crunch time.

[Einstein's Dog]

2 hours ago, H2o said:

Cook is a good RB. He is way better than D'Andre Swift. Trying to compare the two just doesn't make sense, to me at least. Their body types are different. Their style of play is different. Swift is like a little bowling ball at 5'9" and 215lbs. James Cook is 5'11" and, at best, 195lbs. Cook is lightening quick and has a burst that Swift does not. I would compare Swift more to someone like David Montgomery, and Swift is not even on his level. Yes they are different players, but Cook is a legitimate homerun threat at the RB position where Swift is not. 

 

I know I have my opinions about how he and his camp have handled situation entirely from the jump, and I still think his brother is a complete idiot, but our current team would be weaker without him. It would put more strain on Josh to carry the load if Cook were not here, more so than he already does, and that is not what we want or need at this stage in Josh's career. The hits do start to add up and take their toll. Cook is someone that other teams do have to gameplan for because he is that homerun threat. With the position not being addressed in the draft, and a trade not being made at the same time, I think that pretty much settles he will be here this year. And he better be ready to ball out if he wants to get that big contract he's looking for. 

I think the D Swift comparisons are more about the stats - the worth of a somewhat young player who has 200 carries, 1,000ish yds + approx 40 receptions for 300 yds with a good OL in front of them.  Swift got 3yrs $24M with $15M guaranteed.  

 

Spotrac has J Cook's market value listed at $10.2M/yr  (4yrs $40.8M).

[billsintaiwan]

21 hours ago, Einstein said:

Taiwanese baseball or real baseball?

Was Chien Ming-Wang a real player? There are more coming. Work for a MLB team. The guys who scout for the pro leagues here actually have a much harder job than I have. About five guys a year will sign with a MLB club. They have to scout everybody.

 

And, by the way, ***** on Asian baseball at your peril. These boys can play.

[BillsFanForever19]

2 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Spotrac has J Cook's market value listed at $10.2M/yr  (4yrs $40.8M).

 

Spotrac is great for looking up done contracts. But their forecasting of "market values"? It's terrible. They constantly undervalue guys and predict wrong.

[klos63]

34 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

How about we just look at the market price of a 200 carry 1,000 yd-ish back - (+ 50 rec for 300 yds) because that is what he has been, and that is the role the Bills have in mind for him.  And that is not a $15M role.

 

The useless bit of information about Cook's relative usage on our team is irrelevant.  Without Cook someone else would be the second most productive player.  And if that player got 200 carries and around 1,000 yards they too would not get $15M, no matter how exciting they look doing it.

 

While you can downplay the 2 v 3 downs, you don't mention Cook not being out there during the crunch drive vs KC.  Lets not pretend the coaches didn't want their best personnel out there - and Cook was not on the field.  A $15M player should be out there in crunch time.

Cook should have been out there.

[Doc Brown]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea fans hat the business side of football. But it exists. You can't play stop the world I want to get off. 

 

If fans think $15m is "ridiculous" they are not following the NFL market. Is it high? Yes. Is it more than you'd like to pay him? Yes. But it isn't ridiculous. And I don't break the market down by 2 down vs 3 down. I break it down between guys who are a genuine threat to go the distance and guys who are just chain movers. Cook is the former. 

I'd be more open to it if the data of RB's declining after age 26 wasn't so damning.  Beane has the rare advantage of seeing how how an older brother (siblings share anywhere from 37 percent to 65 percent of their parents genetic variants) declined once he hit age 27.  I'd even consider a franchise tag next year depending on how he performs this upcoming season.

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, Einstein's Dog said:

While you can downplay the 2 v 3 downs, you don't mention Cook not being out there during the crunch drive vs KC.  Lets not pretend the coaches didn't want their best personnel out there - and Cook was not on the field.  A $15M player should be out there in crunch time.

 

I've mentioned it numerous times in this thread and others.

 

That is strictly on the coaches making yet another bad decision in KC. Why wasnt Cook on the field? You think he held himself out? Cook was their best personnel. He had the best game out of anyone on Offense. Him not being out there was a clear mistake made by coaches.

 

He should have been out there in crunch time. Take it up with McD. Or better yet, pay him so it forces McD out of making these same dumb mistakes.

 

 

Just now, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

Spotrac is great for looking up done contracts. But their forecasting of "market values"? It's terrible. They constantly undervalue guys and predict wrong.

 

Spotrac market value is like Zillow market value for homes, and they clearly state they have a +/- of 30% (which is a huge swing!).

 

 

Edited 5 hours ago by DrDawkinstein

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, Einstein's Dog said:

While you can downplay the 2 v 3 downs, you don't mention Cook not being out there during the crunch drive vs KC.  Lets not pretend the coaches didn't want their best personnel out there - and Cook was not on the field.  A $15M player should be out there in crunch time.

 

Here are our last 3 drives. It's clear the coaches had our best player on the bench.

 

It's also clear it doesnt matter that Cook is a "2-down back" since when he does get the ball on early downs, we never get to 3rd down...

 

Drive 1: Good comparison for everyone who still talks about Cook's old fumbles and drops and thinks Davis is going to step right in to replace him...

 

Drive 2. Another good comparison for everyone who thinks Johnson is such a better 3rd down/receiving threat.

 

Drive 3. Last drive of the game, Bills get the ball with 4minutes left. Coaches panic and meltdown in KC, AGAIN. Forcing passing plays when the run game was working. And we just needed a FG to stay in it.

[SoonerBillsFan]

3 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Here are our last 3 drives. It's clear the coaches had our best player on the bench.

 

It's also clear it doesnt matter that Cook is a "2-down back" since when he does get the ball on early downs, we never get to 3rd down...

 

Drive 1: Good comparison for everyone who still talks about Cook's old fumbles and drops and thinks Davis is going to step right in to replace him...

 

Drive 2. Another good comparison for everyone who thinks Johnson is such a better 3rd down/receiving threat.

 

Drive 3. Last drive of the game, Bills get the ball with 4minutes left. Coaches panic and meltdown in KC, AGAIN. Forcing passing plays when the run game was working. And we just needed a FG to stay in it.

Johnson is our best 3rd down back, or Josh Allen is a liar. Btw...The opener against Arizona where Josh dives and busts his hand, the announcers make note Johonson is in the game vs Cook.

 

Cook is a 2 down back and not a good blocker to boot.

[Ga boy]

5 hours ago, Einstein's Dog said:

The reason you quibble is because there is a salary cap.  If you overpay for an RB there will be less funds for other positions.  I would have rather the cap allocation went to DK Metcalf instead of an RB.

 

Secondly, from a longer term perspective it's a bad look for the FO to be perceived to have given in to the demands of a squeaky wheel (see Dallas Cowboys).  The way the FO negotiates has brought excellent deals with most of the good drafted players, making an exception will make future negotiations more difficult.

 

Third, many people here are not placing the value of Cook for what he has done, but rather for what he could be.  Cook's stats are at best, at the level of D Henry, $8M a year.  Upstream people are saying he should be in the tier of Jacobs, Kamara, or A Jones - yet Cook has never put up those kind of numbers.

He is the 2nd best player on our team.  In a year, he will cost more.  Pay him the 12.5.  You might say this is a bad precedent, but I don’t see that would be perceived as meeting his demands.  Also, all of the other deals were only for good players.  I would guess that you don’t see JC as borderline elite.  I do, especially for the offense we run without a burner WR.  Tack this on after this year.  In 3-5 years, he won’t be in the top 20% of RB pay.  Good down payment for a Lombardi.  JC is two furlongs ahead of what’s in the stable.

[DrDawkinstein]

6 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

Johnson is our best 3rd down back, or Josh Allen is a liar. 

 

Josh is very supportive and a bit hyperbolic in his praise of his team mates. And Johnson is likely our best 3rd down back. But it doesnt matter when Cook keeps us out of 3rd downs.

 

6 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

Btw...The opener against Arizona where Josh dives and busts his hand, the announcers make note Johonson is in the game vs Cook.

 

Another botch-job by the coaches. Sounds like they should have used Cook so Josh didnt break his hand.

 

6 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

 

Cook is a 2 down back and not a good blocker to boot.

 

Doesnt matter.

Edited 4 hours ago by DrDawkinstein

[Einstein's Dog]

19 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I've mentioned it numerous times in this thread and others.

 

That is strictly on the coaches making yet another bad decision in KC. Why wasnt Cook on the field? You think he held himself out? Cook was their best personnel. He had the best game out of anyone on Offense. Him not being out there was a clear mistake made by coaches.

 

He should have been out there in crunch time. Take it up with McD. Or better yet, pay him so it forces McD out of making these same dumb mistakes.

 

Spotrac market value is like Zillow market value for homes, and they clearly state they have a +/- of 30% (which is a huge swing!).

 

McD thought different personnel were better suited to play on the critical drive at crunch time than Cook.  That does not reflect well on Cook.  You call it a clear mistake that Cook wasn't out there but yet you don't know why.

 

I don't know why McD did not have Cook out there, but I'm extremely confident McD wanted to win.  And McD thought his best way to win at that time was with different players than Cook out there.

 

While Spotrac is just one service giving their evaluation at $10.2M, it should help some understand why many think the $15M claim was ridiculous.  

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, Einstein's Dog said:

McD thought different personnel were better suited to play on the critical drive at crunch time than Cook.  That does not reflect well on Cook.  You call it a clear mistake that Cook wasn't out there but yet you don't know why.

 

 

McD was wrong. Again. That doesnt reflect well on McD.

[SoonerBillsFan]

2 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Josh is very supportive and a bit hyperbolic in his praise of his team mates. And Johnson is likely our best 3rd down back. But it doesnt matter when Cook keeps us out of 3rd downs.

 

 

Another botch-job by the coaches. Sounds like they should have used Cook so Josh didnt break his hand.

 

 

Doesnt matter.

It does matter, 2 down backs who cant block and aren't the best 3rd down back on the team, don't get 15 mill.

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, SoonerBillsFan said:

It does matter, 2 down backs who cant block and aren't the best 3rd down back on the team, don't get 15 mill.

 

Says you building your team.

[Einstein's Dog]

2 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Says you building your team.

I think you will see that this is also the opinion of Beane. 

 

But at least the odds are we get Cook this year - and if Cook hasn't peaked- maybe franchise tag him the year after.