The coaching mismatch

[HappyDays]

12 minutes ago, beebe said:

Andy Reid/McNabb were a slightly more successful version of Sean McDermott/Josh Allen

 

Slightly 🤣

 

My favorite part of the Chiefs fans on here is you have to demean every other part of your organization because any hint that Mahomes is not 100% responsible for their success is sacrilege. Any hint that Allen with the Chiefs could have had similar success is sacrilege. So it comes down to coming up with bizarre (and wrong) opinions about your own coach and surrounding talent.

[FireChans]

4 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Slightly 🤣

 

My favorite part of the Chiefs fans on here is you have to demean every other part of your organization because any hint that Mahomes is not 100% responsible for their success is sacrilege. Any hint that Allen with the Chiefs could have had similar success is sacrilege. So it comes down to coming up with bizarre (and wrong) opinions about your own coach and surrounding talent.

Oh the IRONY lmao.

[Doc]

26 minutes ago, beebe said:

McNabb was easily one of the 10 best quarterbacks of the 2000s. I don't know why you're acting like he's Jeff Garcia or Brad Johnson. He was highly regarded coming out of college and lived up to the hype. He's one of only nine Eagles in their history to have his jersey retired. It wasn't like he was an undrafted free agent.

 

Andy Reid/McNabb were a slightly more successful version of Sean McDermott/Josh Allen in the playoffs.

 

McNabb was made to look better than he was by Reid.  Hence the reason he's a better OC than what the Bills have had in decades.

[Success]

33 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Slightly 🤣

 

My favorite part of the Chiefs fans on here is you have to demean every other part of your organization because any hint that Mahomes is not 100% responsible for their success is sacrilege. Any hint that Allen with the Chiefs could have had similar success is sacrilege. So it comes down to coming up with bizarre (and wrong) opinions about your own coach and surrounding talent.

 

Pats fans did that for years.

 

If the debate was Brady/Manning, it was all Brady, all the time.  If it was about coaching, Belichick was the GOAT and chess/checkers.

 

[phypon]

McD is not elite nor is he something special.  He is at best a low end manager.  There has been plenty of talent on this team (and don't try to credit him for it).  Some of you need to get your head out of your behinds...

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

9 hours ago, HardyBoy said:

I'd argue this year with throwing into tight windows was a top 3 defense at the top of its game vs AJ Klein, a severely hampered Douglass and a bunch of other injuries.

 

What AJ Klein level mismatch did the Chiefs have on their defense that the Bills could have exploited to get those wide open windows?

Not sure but the Bengals were missing most of their o line the year prior and still couldn’t get any pressure 

[beebe]

51 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

McNabb was made to look better than he was by Reid.  Hence the reason he's a better OC than what the Bills have had in decades.

 

Based on what exactly? Reid went 22-26 in his three years without McNabb and twice missed the playoffs. He won one playoff game in five years with KC/Alex Smith.

[Doc]

58 minutes ago, beebe said:

Based on what exactly? Reid went 22-26 in his three years without McNabb and twice missed the playoffs. He won one playoff game in five years with KC/Alex Smith.

 

Yes, no one disputes that Mahomes is a great QB/better QB than Smith, McNabb or any QB Reid has had before.

Edited February 22 by Doc

[Thurman#1]

11 hours ago, WIDE LEFT said:

While the national media worships at the feet of Patrick Mahomes, a closer examination and a more nuanced analysis reveals Allen to be the better QB. Allen “can’t beat” Mahomes (in the playoffs) simply because it’s a complete coaching mismatch on both sides of the ball. Just watch the playoff loss to KC. Allen is forced to throw darts into the smallest of targets while Mahomes is consistently throwing to wide open targets, ie the TD pass to Kelce, among others. This is not surprising, Reid is a hall of fame offensive genius while Brady is still getting his feet wet. But Allen was the better QB that day, and almost every time he has played KC

 

Whats disappointing is the coaching mis match on the defensive side of the ball. Anybody think Spagnola would have lost that lead with 13 seconds to go. He is constantly making in game adjustments while McD is like a deer in the headlights. Chris Jones ruined what would have been a go ahead TD via his pressure/hit on Allen. Jones had been moved from his DT position to DE on that play. Nice adjustments. In the meantime KC all pro guard Tuney just ate up Ed Oliver all day, but no movement or adjustment. Oliver had zero impact all day. And BTW, you don’t have to be a Reid level offensive genius to recognize & exploit the fact that AJ Klein CANNOT cover Kielce.

 

 

Mahomes played against mostly our second and third stringers.

 

Allen played against mostly their firsts.

 

Allen played a very good game. Mahomes was even better.

 

 

8 hours ago, 90sBills said:

Wow another Allen is better but can’t win because someone something else etc etc thread. It’s still Feb. Might be a record for these kind of threads this offseason. 

 

 

Yup.

 

You can say Jones was moved from DT to DE. Or you can say that Schnowman stopped him and that with one step to his right, Allen creates a wide-open pocket, never gets touched and probably completes that pass. Both are true.

 

Allen is generally fantastic at the crucial skill of pocket movement but he wasn't on that play.

Edited February 23 by Thurman#1

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

Oh the IRONY lmao.

 

Where's the irony? In 6 years one team has 3 Super Bowl wins and 6 consecutive AFCCG appearances. One team has 1 AFCCG appearance. I don't have to stretch to criticize the Bills roster and coaching staff just because I'm so hyper sensitive about my QB. The results speak for themselves.

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Slightly 🤣

 

My favorite part of the Chiefs fans on here is you have to demean every other part of your organization because any hint that Mahomes is not 100% responsible for their success is sacrilege. Any hint that Allen with the Chiefs could have had similar success is sacrilege. So it comes down to coming up with bizarre (and wrong) opinions about your own coach and surrounding talent.

 

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Where's the irony? In 6 years one team has 3 Super Bowl wins and 6 consecutive AFCCG appearances. One team has 1 AFCCG appearance. I don't have to stretch to criticize the Bills roster and coaching staff just because I'm so hyper sensitive about my QB. The results speak for themselves.

These two parts, mostly; if you switch to “Bills” and “Allen” it basically becomes your takes over the last 12 months.

Edited February 23 by FireChans

[Homey D. Clown]

If you field the defense that was really coming into form through week 4 and this game is a Bills drubbing.  At worst a really solid handling of the chiefs.  The fact that the score was even that close is a testament to OUR coaching making the most of the table scraps that were available on defense.  This was not a coaching issue in the least, but yeah, bills lost, McClappy Bad!

[Julio Hopkins]

The game was only a month ago and apparently people think the defense played with only third stringers.  The defensive line was pretty damn healthy, Hyde and Poyer played, Johnson and Douglas played.  Obviously there were some major injuries, but damn, people are on here attempting to spin the narrative that the entire defense was injured with scabs in their place.  

[90sBills]

21 hours ago, beebe said:

 

Andy was the classic "good regular season coach" just like McDermott. He gave boring platitudes about "process" and "sticking with it" at press conferences. He came up just short in the playoffs over and over again. He had issues with "clock management." He was constantly criticized for "abandoning the run." He blew big leads. Not just in Philly but also in Kansas City. In 2013, his first year with the Chiefs, they blew a 28-point lead in the playoffs to the Colts. In 2015, trailing by two scores to the Patriots, Andy oversaw a late scoring drive that basically wiped out the entire game clock and talked afterward about the "importance of calling the right plays." A year later, in 2016, Andy's Chiefs scored two touchdowns, gave up zero touchdowns, and still lost to the Steelers in the playoffs. The next year, in 2017, Andy's Chiefs lost to the Titans led by Marcus Mariota who completed a touchdown pass to ... Marcus Mariota. 

 

Andy was 11-13 in the playoffs. 

 

Many Chiefs fans wanted Andy out and wondered if he would ever win the big one. Philly fans laughed from afar, especially after Doug Pederson got them the Super Bowl Andy could never get: "Yep, that's the Andy Reid we knew. Playoff choker." 

 

Andy's entire reputation has been transformed since Mahomes arrived to town. 

You won’t get too many Bills fans to agree to this. Because if this is the case (and it is) that would mean Mahomes is the difference in Reid’s career turnaround. We can’t have that around here because it would diminish our qb in a mental gymnastic kind of way. So the majority here will say it’s all Reid for Mahomes’ success. Allen would’ve gotten 6 rings (yes this has been posted here) if he’s with KC.

 

The truth is Reid was viewed as a coach that couldn’t win the big one. A coach that didn’t know how to manage the clock late in games. A coach that was nowhere near best of all time status. 
 

It is also true that he’s a great offensive coach and can get the best out of his players. He has gotten the best out of Mahomes. Would Mahomes be as successful if he didn’t ended up with KC? I’d say not 3 SB out of 5 years successful but definitely would have a ring by now no matter where he landed. Mahomes is that special. No matter how good a coach is he can’t turn anyone into what Mahomes is currently. That has to be from the player. 
 

That’s not a slight on Allen at all. He is also special. I don’t get why some people have a problem with greatness when it isn’t from a Bill. But whatever. Let’s beat them one of these years dammit!

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, 90sBills said:

You won’t get too many Bills fans to agree to this. Because if this is the case (and it is) that would mean Mahomes is the difference in Reid’s career turnaround. We can’t have that around here because it would diminish our qb in a mental gymnastic kind of way. So the majority here will say it’s all Reid for Mahomes’ success. Allen would’ve gotten 6 rings (yes this has been posted here) if he’s with KC.

 

The truth is Reid was viewed as a coach that couldn’t win the big one. A coach that didn’t know how to manage the clock late in games. A coach that was nowhere near best of all time status. 
 

It is also true that he’s a great offensive coach and can get the best out of his players. He has gotten the best out of Mahomes. Would Mahomes be as successful if he didn’t ended up with KC? I’d say not 3 SB out of 5 years successful but definitely would have a ring by now no matter where he landed. Mahomes is that special. No matter how good a coach is he can’t turn anyone into what Mahomes is currently. That has to be from the player. 
 

That’s not a slight on Allen at all. He is also special. I don’t get why some people have a problem with greatness when it isn’t from a Bill. But whatever. Let’s beat them one of these years dammit!

Bills fans used to ANNIHILATE Lamar Jackson. That trailed off for a bit until this second MVP. There can be no other great QB’s in the NFL!

 

I eagerly await the tonal shift on CJ Stroud from “what a great rookie season from a promising young QB,” to “Stroud is overrated and I take Allen 10/10 times over him, he ain’t even close!”

 

You know it’s coming. Week 6 if the Texans are like 5-1 and someone on ESPN says Stroud should be MVP, the hate will start to fly.

[Doc]

1 hour ago, 90sBills said:

You won’t get too many Bills fans to agree to this. Because if this is the case (and it is) that would mean Mahomes is the difference in Reid’s career turnaround. We can’t have that around here because it would diminish our qb in a mental gymnastic kind of way. So the majority here will say it’s all Reid for Mahomes’ success. Allen would’ve gotten 6 rings (yes this has been posted here) if he’s with KC.

 

The truth is Reid was viewed as a coach that couldn’t win the big one. A coach that didn’t know how to manage the clock late in games. A coach that was nowhere near best of all time status. 
 

It is also true that he’s a great offensive coach and can get the best out of his players. He has gotten the best out of Mahomes. Would Mahomes be as successful if he didn’t ended up with KC? I’d say not 3 SB out of 5 years successful but definitely would have a ring by now no matter where he landed. Mahomes is that special. No matter how good a coach is he can’t turn anyone into what Mahomes is currently. That has to be from the player. 
 

That’s not a slight on Allen at all. He is also special. I don’t get why some people have a problem with greatness when it isn’t from a Bill. But whatever. Let’s beat them one of these years dammit!

 

Reid is and always has been a great offensive mind.  Again I doubt you'd find anyone who would take any of the Bills' OCs of the past few decades over him.  But he's never had a great QB like Mahomes before (and who has nothing to do with clock management).  But don't forget the effect that adding Spagnuolo at DC had.  He was a guy who twice shut down 2 of the best offenses in NFL history in the SB.

[beebe]

24 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Reid is and always has been a great offensive mind.  Again I doubt you'd find anyone who would take any of the Bills' OCs of the past few decades over him.  But he's never had a great QB like Mahomes before (and who has nothing to do with clock management).  But don't forget the effect that adding Spagnuolo at DC had.  He was a guy who twice shut down 2 of the best offenses in NFL history in the SB.

 

The '07 Pats and who else?

[Doc]

2 minutes ago, beebe said:

The '07 Pats and who else?

 

The '11 Pats.

[beebe]

18 hours ago, Doc said:

 

The '11 Pats.

 

Spags was head coach of the Rams that year. 

[Doc]

52 minutes ago, beebe said:

Spags was head coach of the Rams that year. 

 

I just checked and you're right.

[beebe]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

I just checked and you're right.

 

Spags has been getting credit for beating Brady twice in a Super Bowl for like a decade. It's one of the oddest things. If you do a Twitter search that includes the words "Spags," "Brady" and "twice," you'll see comments about it almost daily. In reality, he was putting the finishing touches on a 10-38 record with the Rams before getting fired (his defenses were mostly terrible.)

 

He caught on with the Saints a year later as their DC where he oversaw arguably the worst defense in NFL history. He was fired after one season. 

 

The New Orleans Saints have fired defensive coordinator Steve Spagnuolo after one season -- a record-setting year in the wrong way.

New Orleans ranked last in the NFL in total defense and run defense, yielding the most yards (7,042) ever in a single season.

 

After a few years as an assistant and position coach with the Ravens, Spags returned to the Giants in 2015. Two of his three defenses, including the one that led to his departure for a second time, were terrible, finishing close to dead last in both yards and points allowed. 

 

In KC, his defenses haven't been particularly good in regular seasons up until this year. He's been 15th, 16th, 22nd, 14th and 7th in DVOA. We have seen an uptick in KC's defensive performance most years in the playoffs, but certainly not always. This year was the clear exception (KC's defense was great.) 

 

But from 2019-2022, Spags' defenses allowed: 31, 24, 20, 17, 24, 31, 27, 36, 21, 20, 20, 35 pts in 12 playoff games. That's an average of 25.5 points per game allowed in the playoffs. If KC's offense had performed less-than-amazing, or had the Chiefs lost playoff games where the offense scored 30-plus—ie the 13 seconds game, or the Eagles Super Bowl—the narrative surrounding Spags would be much different. 

 

McDermott's defenses have given up 23.4 points per playoff game in his tenure by comparison (less than 20 pts vs non Chiefs opponents.) 

 

McDermott's defenses on the whole have far outperformed Spags' defenses in the regular season, and they've been very close during the playoffs (edge would go to McDermott statistically.) 

Edited February 24 by beebe

[SaulGoodman]

30 minutes ago, beebe said:

 

Spags has been getting credit for beating Brady twice in a Super Bowl for like a decade. It's one of the oddest things. If you do a Twitter search that includes the words "Spags," "Brady" and "twice," you'll see comments about it almost daily. In reality, he was putting the finishing touches on a 10-38 record with the Rams before getting fired (his defenses were mostly terrible.)

 

He caught on with the Saints a year later as their DC where he oversaw arguably the worst defense in NFL history. He was fired after one season. 

 

The New Orleans Saints have fired defensive coordinator Steve Spagnuolo after one season -- a record-setting year in the wrong way.

New Orleans ranked last in the NFL in total defense and run defense, yielding the most yards (7,042) ever in a single season.

 

After a few years as an assistant and position coach with the Ravens, Spags returned to the Giants in 2015. Two of his three defenses, including the one that led to his departure for a second time, were terrible, finishing close to dead last in both yards and points allowed. 

 

In KC, his defenses haven't been particularly good in regular seasons up until this year. He's been 15th, 16th, 22nd, 14th and 7th in DVOA. We have seen an uptick in KC's defensive performance most years in the playoffs, but certainly not always. This year was the clear exception (KC's defense was great.) 

 

But from 2019-2022, Spags' defenses allowed: 31, 24, 20, 17, 24, 31, 27, 36, 21, 20, 20, 35 pts in 12 playoff games. That's an average of 25.5 points per game allowed in the playoffs. If KC's offense had performed less-than-amazing, or had the Chiefs lost playoff games where the offense scored 30-plus—ie the 13 seconds game, or the Eagles Super Bowl—the narrative surrounding Spags would be much different. 

 

McDermott's defenses have given up 23.4 points per playoff game in his tenure by comparison (less than 20 pts vs non Chiefs opponents.) 

 

McDermott's defenses on the whole have far outperformed Spags' defenses in the regular season, and they've been very close during the playoffs (edge would go to McDermott statistically.) 

 

Easy now....you're dropping too many facts. 

[beebe]

Even counting this year's playoff wizardry under Spags, KC's defenses have allowed 5.39 yards per play and 23 points per game across 16 playoff games. 

 

They've given up 24+ points in eight of 16 playoff games.

 

They've given up 31 points and 35 points in two of their four Super Bowls. 

 

KC has had just two truly dominant defensive playoff outings in the Spags era: Allowing 7 pts on 4.5 yards per play vs the Dolphins this year; and giving up 3.9 yards per play vs the Steelers in Big Ben's final game (Pitt had 21 pts that game, but had a defensive score.) 

 

KC's performance vs the Ravens this year would likely take 3rd place, they gave up just 10 points against a very good offense. But Baltimore went 5.9 yards per play and underperformed the scoreboard with the goal line fumble, among other snafus. 

 

Where KC has shined in the playoffs under Spags is getting critical stops when they need them most. More specifically, Chris Jones has shined when they need him most. Jones had a huge batted ball in Super Bowl 54 vs the 49ers as well as some big pressures late. He had the critical sack of Joe Burrow in last year's AFC championship game. He got just enough pressure on Josh Allen to alter the throw to Shakir in the divisional round, and had the critical pressure to force the quick Purdy incompletion vs the 49ers late in Super Bowl 58. 

 

One area of weakness that stands out for McDermott in the playoffs (and it could just be randomness) is the lack of takeaways. Buffalo has had the most takeaways in the NFL during McDermott's tenure: 188 takeaways in 114 regular season games (1.64 takeaways per game.) But in playoff games, Buffalo has forced just 10 turnovers in 11 playoff games (two were by Mecole Hardman, a fumble out of the end zone and a muffed punt in the 2020 AFC title game.) 

 

Buffalo has yet to intercept Mahomes in three playoff games and also didn't intercept Burrow in the other playoff loss.

[Doc]

10 minutes ago, beebe said:

 

Spags has been getting credit for beating Brady twice in a Super Bowl for like a decade. It's one of the oddest things. If you do a Twitter search that includes the words "Spags," "Brady" and "twice," you'll see comments about it almost daily. In reality, he was putting the finishing touches on a 10-38 record with the Rams before getting fired (his defenses were mostly terrible.)

 

He caught on with the Saints a year later as their DC where he oversaw arguably the worst defense in NFL history. He was fired after one season. 

 

The New Orleans Saints have fired defensive coordinator Steve Spagnuolo after one season -- a record-setting year in the wrong way.

New Orleans ranked last in the NFL in total defense and run defense, yielding the most yards (7,042) ever in a single season.

 

After a few years as an assistant and position coach with the Ravens, Spags returned to the Giants in 2015. Two of his three defenses, including the one that led to his departure for a second time, were terrible, finishing close to dead last in both yards and points allowed. 

 

In KC, his defenses haven't been particularly good in regular seasons up until this year. He's been 15th, 16th, 22nd, 14th and 7th in DVOA. We have seen an uptick in KC's defensive performance most years in the playoffs, but certainly not always. This year was the clear exception (KC's defense was great.) 

 

But from 2019-2022, Spags' defenses allowed: 31, 24, 20, 17, 24, 31, 27, 36, 21, 20, 20, 35 pts in 12 playoff games. That's an average of 25.5 points per game allowed in the playoffs. If KC's offense had performed less-than-amazing, or had the Chiefs lost games playoff games where the offense scored 30-plus—ie the 13 seconds game, or the Eagles Super Bowl—the narrative surrounding Spags would be much different. 

 

McDermott's defenses have given up 23.4 points per playoff game in his tenure by comparison (less than 20 pts vs non Chiefs opponents.) 

 

McDermott's defenses on the whole have far outperformed Spags' defenses in the regular season, and they've been very close during the playoffs (edge would go to McDermott statistically.) 

 

The point being Spags has done it on the biggest stage.  McD hasn't.  And there's no argument Reid is a better play-caller than anything the Bills have had in decades.

[Dr. Who]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

The point being Spags has done it on the biggest stage.  McD hasn't.  And there's no argument Reid is a better play-caller than anything the Bills have had in decades.

Indeed, facts are always contextual and relative to a larger, encompassing narrative. 

[beebe]

13 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

The point being Spags has done it on the biggest stage.  McD hasn't.  And there's no argument Reid is a better play-caller than anything the Bills have had in decades.

 

He has. But his two best-known defenses - the '07 Giants and the '23 Chiefs - also had some truly elite players. That Giants team led the NFL in sacks (six more than any other team) and had Strahan and Osi Umenyiora creating an unreal pass rush. The next year, without Spags, that same Giants defense gave up 3.5 points less per game and were a top-5 defense. 

 

The '23 Chiefs had Chris Jones and the NFL's best secondary.

 

Spags has definitely made a name for himself, and good for him. But outside of those two seasons, he's been a league-average defensive coordinator in his 14 years of running NFL defenses, but has had some notable playoff successes. McDermott has a 100-plus game sample of being very good at running defenses, but has some notable playoff failures. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

Josh Allen had a wide open receiver at the back of the endzone for the go ahead, possible came winning TD... He couldn't get the ball to him.

 

At the same time there was this:

[Doc]

1 hour ago, beebe said:

 

He has. But his two best-known defenses - the '07 Giants and the '23 Chiefs - also had some truly elite players. That Giants team led the NFL in sacks (six more than any other team) and had Strahan and Osi Umenyiora creating an unreal pass rush. The next year, without Spags, that same Giants defense gave up 3.5 points less per game and were a top-5 defense. 

 

The '23 Chiefs had Chris Jones and the NFL's best secondary.

 

Spags has definitely made a name for himself, and good for him. But outside of those two seasons, he's been a league-average defensive coordinator in his 14 years of running NFL defenses, but has had some notable playoff successes. McDermott has a 100-plus game sample of being very good at running defenses, but has some notable playoff failures. 

His defense against the '07 Cheaters was one for the ages.  I still remember Brady guffawing at one of the Giants players saying they were going to hold them to 20 points...and then holding them to 17.

 

And yes the Chiefs' defense this past season was excellent.  And most importantly healthy. 

[harmonkillebrew]

Not likely to get any better in the near future either.  Brady will be outmatched by Spags. McD/Babich by Reid.

We will have to win with an abundance of superior talent.

[Doc]

3 minutes ago, harmonkillebrew said:

Not likely to get any better in the near future either.  Brady will be outmatched by Spags. McD/Babich by Reid.

We will have to win with an abundance of superior talent.

 

Depends on how long Reid continues to coach. 

[harmonkillebrew]

22 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Depends on how long Reid continues to coach. 

Agree, which is why I think Beane's strategy of keeping the window open as long as possible is valid. Reid will eventually retire and hopefully we'll still be competitive then.