Rate all of Beane's draft picks

[Zerovoltz]

3 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

I trust your judgement too. 
 

Who are your top 5? What do you consider elite? 

Roseman

McClay (Dallas)  ....look at their drafts...consistantly really good.  Jerrah botches vet contracts.

Lynch (49ers) drafts well enough to overcome some misses in round 1.  

Veach (KC) 

Loomis (NO)  Good drafter and talent e v a l guy....reckless contract guy.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

some how they have managed to get out of every bad investment and pick they ever made with out much harm. Meanwhile it feels like the Bills mistakes and bad investments are now going to cost them. 
 

did the eagles just get lucky riding the rookie QB contract to two super bowls? 
 

nearly every year now it seems at least one of the teams in the Super Bowl has a qb on a rookie contract. It is one of the best ways to build a Super Bowl contender.

 

I mean, yes, they did. But Roseman is also the king of the short term FA deal and was doing the can kick and dummy years deals before they were cool. He is just all around a very good GM. The thing I most value about him is he is unashamedly "build from the trenches". 

[Einstein]

10 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

Wait a minute… you jumped on Beane for trading the pick that became Justin Jefferson for Stefon Diggs… but Roseman is elite despite passing on Justin Jefferson for Jalen Reagor? 
 

Cody Ford instead of DK Metcalf but JJ Arcega Whiteside over DK Metcalf is ok? 
 

Hopefully Howie is elite, with his entire defense hitting FA, no cap space and Jalen Hurts about to get $50M/year. Luckily I think he is… but his missed are just as bad.

 

No argument that Howie has his mistakes too. I even mentioned it in the post you quoted.

 

But his sheer volume of great decisions outweigh his poor decisions. You could make an arguemnt that he has drafted more high-end plyers in the last 2 drafts than Beane has in all 5 combined (minus Josh Allen).

 

Devonta Smith, Landon Dickerson, Cam Jurgens, Jordan Davis, etc. All in the last 2 drafts. And he has Nakobe Dean waiting in the wings for when his defense leaves in FA (as you mentioned).

[Zerovoltz]

3 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

Roseman

McClay (Dallas)  ....look at their drafts...consistantly really good.  Jerrah botches vet contracts.

Lynch (49ers) drafts well enough to overcome some misses in round 1.  

Veach (KC) 

Loomis (NO)  Good drafter and talent e v a l guy....reckless contract guy.

 

Beane is close....in the top 10 without a doubt.

 

I don't quite understand how much some here are discounting that he did take Allen.  That has to count for something.  I KNOW that Mayfield and Darnold were off the board, but surely all of you remember all the ridicule the Bills got for making that choice.  Mina Kimes anyone?  Clearly, at LEAST given the choice of Allen, Lamar and "the other Josh" ...they nailed that.  It's FAR AND AWAY the most important part of the equation...and then...they developed him right.  Credit for that too!  Alot of fanbases are convinced that if their team took Allen, they'd have ruined him.

 

...just go back to 13 seconds....which was an incredible sequence, that was highly improbable.  IF you go on to win the Super Bowl....NO ONE one within 500 miles of Niagra falls is making this rediculous case that Beane isn't a good drafter.  He's good.  He nailed the most important pick and he's been better than leauge average on many others.  

[Einstein]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 The thing I most value about him is he is unashamedly "build from the trenches". 

Yes! It was a thing of beauty watching that Philly o-line blow KC off the ball, play after play. By the time the 4th quarter rolled round you could almost see KC's d-line get dejected when it got to 4th and 1 because they knew there was nothing hey could do stop them from converting.

[Zerovoltz]

Just now, Einstein said:

 

No argument that Howie has his mistakes too. I even mentioned it in the post you quoted.

 

But his sheer volume of great decisions outweigh his poor decisions. You could make an arguemnt that he has drafted more high-end plyers in the last 2 drafts than Beane has in all 5 combined (minus Josh Allen).

 

Devonta Smith, Landon Dickerson, Cam Jurgens, Jordan Davis, etc. All in the last 2 drafts. And he has Nakobe Dean waiting in the wings for when his defense leaves in FA (as you mentioned).

 

Smith 7 overall. Jordan Davis 13th overall.  Easier to make those picks...up high.  Now...if you want to fault Beane for missing on IOL in round 2....I'll listen to that argument. Jurgens and DIckerson were both highly regarded college Centers who had G experience as well.  If you need IOL...round 2 is where you ought to be targeting guys who can help, and not flawed DE's.  

[Einstein]

Veach in KC too...

 

Nick Bolton, Creed Humphrey, Trey Smith, Trent McDuffie (who I think the Bills wanted), Karlaftis, and Pacheco (who is turning into a stud). All in he last 2 drafts. The two Super Bowl participants this year put on a clinic in the last 2 drafts.

 

We.... well we drafted a player who we admitted was our last 1st round grade and then healthy scratched him at times and generally admitted we didnt know what to do with him.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Einstein said:

Yes! It was a thing of beauty watching that Philly o-line blow KC off the ball, play after play. By the time the 4th quarter rolled round you could almost see KC's d-line get dejected when it got to 4th and 1 because they knew there was nothing hey could do stop them from converting.

 

The Bills need to upgrade the offensive line more than they need to do anything else.

[davefan66]

On 2/17/2023 at 12:22 PM, Einstein said:

Players in red are gone or are presumed to be gone (example: Edmunds is testing free agency and is expected to get way more than the Bills can pay). Also didn't include 2022 picks since its too early to rate them.

 

How do you rate the rest of the draft picks? Here are my ratings:

 

2018

 

Allen - elite

Edmunds 

Phillips

Teller 

Mccloud 

T Johnson - good

Proehl 

 

2019

 

Oliver - average

Ford 

Singletary 

Knox - average

Joseph 

J Johnson - bad

D Johnson

Sweeney  

 

2020

 

Epenesa - backup quality

Moss

Davis - average

Fromm

Bass - good

Hodgins

D Jackson - average (I'm not as down on Dane as some of you)

 

2021

 

Rousseau - average

Basham - backup quality

Brown - backup quality

Doyle - backup

Stevenson

Hamlin - backup quality

Wildgoose

Anderson

And?

[Einstein]

Just now, Zerovoltz said:

 

Smith 7 overall. Jordan Davis 13th overall.  Easier to make those picks...up high.  

Well, yeah... Roseman traded up to get an elite player. We are allowed to do that too.

 

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The Bills need to upgrade the offensive line more than they need to do anything else.

 

100% agreed.

[GunnerBill]

11 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

No argument that Howie has his mistakes too. I even mentioned it in the post you quoted.

 

But his sheer volume of great decisions outweigh his poor decisions. You could make an arguemnt that he has drafted more high-end plyers in the last 2 drafts than Beane has in all 5 combined (minus Josh Allen).

 

Devonta Smith, Landon Dickerson, Cam Jurgens, Jordan Davis, etc. All in the last 2 drafts. And he has Nakobe Dean waiting in the wings for when his defense leaves in FA (as you mentioned).

 

Cam Jugens played 40 snaps all season. I liked the pick but who knows what he turns out to be at this stage?

[JGMcD2]

12 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

No argument that Howie has his mistakes too. I even mentioned it in the post you quoted.

 

But his sheer volume of great decisions outweigh his poor decisions. You could make an arguemnt that he has drafted more high-end plyers in the last 2 drafts than Beane has in all 5 combined (minus Josh Allen).

 

Devonta Smith, Landon Dickerson, Cam Jurgens, Jordan Davis, etc. All in the last 2 drafts. And he has Nakobe Dean waiting in the wings for when his defense leaves in FA (as you mentioned).

Jordan Davis? What exactly did he do this year that makes him a high-end player? Did Jurgens even start a game this year? Nakobe Dean? 
 

I mean come on man… 

[Einstein]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Cam Jugens played 40 snaps all season. I liked the pick but who knows what he turns out to be at this stage?

 

He is gonna be Kelce’s replacement. PFF had him as one of the best rookies in the NFL from his preseason tape.

 

4 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

Jordan Davis? What exactly did he do this year that makes him a high-end player? Did Jurgens even start a game this year? Nakobe Dean? 
 

I mean come on man… 

 

Davis had a great season. And the only reason Jurgens isn’t playing is because he is Kelce’s replacement and the Eagles have an all-pro line. Dean will be starting next year. 

 

https://www.si.com/college/georgia/.amp/news/jordan-davis-highest-rated-dl-nfl-philadelphia-eagles

 

 

Edited February 18, 2023 by Einstein

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

He is gonna be Kelce’s replacement. PFF had him as one of the best rookies in the NFL from his preseason tape.

 

 

Davis had a great season. And the only reason Jurgens isn’t playing is because he is Kelce’s replacement and the Eagles have an all-pro line.

 

https://www.si.com/college/georgia/.amp/news/jordan-davis-highest-rated-dl-nfl-philadelphia-eagles

 

 

 

I know that is the plan. But you can't claim it as a success before he gets on the field. And I repeat I liked the pick. 

[starrymessenger]

2 hours ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

YES said this on the day he was drafted and ever since. You do not waste a top 10 asset on a DT. PERIOD.

Don't understand this PBM. Jalen Carter is maybe the best player on D in this years draft. He's going 1 or 2. Agree you can expect more from  a # 9 pick than we have gotten from Oliver but in his draft year to me Q. Williams was a legit top 10 pick.

[JGMcD2]

1 minute ago, Einstein said:

 

He is gonna be Kelce’s replacement. PFF had him as one of the best rookies in the NFL from his preseason tape.

 

https://www.si.com/college/georgia/.amp/news/jordan-davis-highest-rated-dl-nfl-philadelphia-eagles

Preseason tape... right. He played 40 snaps during the regular season. You can’t claim he’s a high-end pick. 

 

Through the first 5 games… finished with a 71 grade (Ed Oliver was 69). He played 26% of their defensive snaps… for reference Kaiir Elam (the guy you’re saying Buffalo didn’t play enough) played 57% of the snaps. 

 

Your opinion and perspective has been great so far… this is kind of straying far to prove a point. 

[Einstein]

Just now, JGMcD2 said:

Preseason tape... right. He played 40 snaps during the regular season. You can’t claim he’s a high-end pick. 

 

Through the first 5 games… finished with a 71 grade (Ed Oliver was 69). He played 26% of their defensive snaps… for reference Kaiir Elam (the guy you’re saying Buffalo didn’t play enough) played 57% of the snaps. 

 

You’re right about Jurgens. I guess I just feel that he is going to be great, but you’re right that I can’t prove it yet.

 

As for Davis… think about that. He had a higher grade in his first season than Ed Oliver had in his 4th.

[JGMcD2]

6 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

You’re right about Jurgens. I guess I just feel that he is going to be great, but you’re right that I can’t prove it yet.

 

As for Davis… think about that. He had a higher grade in his first season than Ed Oliver had in his 4th.

That’s not my point… you’re arguing Davis is great and upthread that Oliver is average. They graded out nearly identical. 
 

Sure, maybe he progresses and you’re right… but as of right now it wasn’t high-end by your definition. 

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

That’s not my point… you’re arguing Davis is great and upthread that Oliver is average. They graded out nearly identical. 
 

Sure, maybe he progresses and you’re right… but as of right now it wasn’t high-end by your definition. 

 

And while I am not by any means a PFF hater, when you look at the metrics aside their grading, in 226 snaps he had 1 pressure and 1 tackle for loss. 

 

Doesn't mean Davis won't be great. But if the argument against Oliver is lack of game changing plays.... well you might need to wait to see Davis make some before hailing him as a difference maker.

[Einstein]

18 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And while I am not by any means a PFF hater, when you look at the metrics aside their grading, in 226 snaps he had 1 pressure and 1 tackle for loss. 

 

Doesn't mean Davis won't be great. But if the argument against Oliver is lack of game changing plays.... well you might need to wait to see Davis make some before hailing him as a difference maker.

 

Davis plays 1 tech, so it makes sense that he doesn’t make game changing plays. He is clogging lanes. 
 

Oliver doesn’t have that excuse. He has had plenty of time at 3T.

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Davis plays 1 tech, so it makes sense that he doesn’t make game changing plays. He is clogging lanes. 
 

Oliver doesn’t have that excuse. He has had plenty of time at 3T.

 

I know where he plays. The starter at 1T - Javon Hargrave - had 11 sacks and 10 tackles for loss. 

 

Again, it is not to say Davis won't be good (althought I didn't think he was an elite prospect and still don't) but he hasn't done anything yet for you to be able to say he is a success of a pick. He did fine as a rookie playing on a rotational basis. But just fine.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

2 hours ago, starrymessenger said:

Don't understand this PBM. Jalen Carter is maybe the best player on D in this years draft. He's going 1 or 2. Agree you can expect more from  a # 9 pick than we have gotten from Oliver but in his draft year to me Q. Williams was a legit top 10 pick.

Still wouldn't do it 

[StHustle]

19 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

I’m looking at a 3 tech that struggles to get more than 3 or 4 sacks per season and maybe 1 forced fumble.

 

He isn’t elite nor great. He isn’t very good either. But he’s good. And that’s above average. To call him average shows you don’t know what you’re looking at

[Manther]

16 hours ago, Zerovoltz said:

Rosemans strategy is a triumph of numbers.  He aquires tons of picks and then just drafts and drafts and drafts....banking on the idea that of the players they evaluate, they are going to miss on some, so throwing more crap at the wall means more has a chance to stick.  It's why when they miss on a Reager or Dillard, they just keep on going because they've hit on enough of their staggering payload of choices everyyear, that they are fine.  AND...more important than all that....they hit on Hurtz in round 2 and have been able to build around him well.....better than most.

 

Roseman is a top 5 elite for sure.  

Agree on Roseman.  Agree on the theory as well.  IF your team can evaluate well and coach players up well, then take more players and develop more of them successfully.  Then you should be better than the majority of teams in the league.

 

The trade up contradicts this theory and the trade up rarely works.  Trade up for a QB and barely any other position.  

[Matt_In_NH]

On 2/17/2023 at 1:26 PM, TheFunPolice said:

 

Not only do I disagree (I'm just some person on a message board).

 

Beane and McDermott apparently disagreed too, because they signed 2 formerly retired WRs during the season to try to fix the deficiency. 

 

OL is plain for anyone to see. It was bad. 

 

The statement I quoted was interpreting things in the most negative way possible possible.   The quote talked about "no run game, horrible OL and 1 WR threat.  You are picking on the WR part and talking about a couple practice squad guys who got handfuls of snaps down the stretch.  Was WR a concern? Yes it was/is.   Were there injuries to WR's?  Do teams routinely add veteran depth as the season goes on?   Did Gabe Davis perform like people wanted, no but he had 836 yards and 7 TD's. 

 

No run game.....the Bills were 7th in rushing yards per game.  Take away Allen and it falls down but the YPG were there.  Did the Bills give up huge numbers of sacks?  Allen hold the ball longer than pretty much every QB in the league.  

 

Having said that, should OL and WR be addressed?  yes they should, its just not all doom and gloom like is being thrown around.  The Bills scored the second most points in the league and were also right around there in yards per game.  They were among the best at third down conversions.

 

The panic in Bills mafia is driven by recency bias.

[dgrochester55]

Rating the draft based on the players production in Buffalo, where they were picked and a little consideration for production after Buffalo

 

2017-  A-    Solid overall draft.   White and Dawkins were quality starters and Milano was a flat out steal.  Jones was a disappointment but rebounded well in Jacksonville, Peterman was bad too but not too many 5th round qb's are long term starters.  Vallejo wasn't here long, but is still in the NFL. 

 

A very good draft with some key building blocks for Mcdermott

 

2018  A+     Allen is our Franchise QB.  Edmunds never became the all pro that we expected but was still a solid starter for 5 seasons, Phillips is doing well in Minnesota after injuries limited him here.   Taron Johnson is a reliable backup who makes big plays at key times, Teller is a pro bowl guard and it is too bad we could not hang on to him.   Buffalo also added Levi Wallace who started for three years as a UDFA.    McCloud is a backup on San Fran.  Only Proehl is not currently in the NFL.  

 

Buffalo nailed this draft

 

2019  C      Oliver has shown flashes and can start somewhere, but did not produce like a top ten pick should, Ford was a bust, Singletary is a decent committee back and not bad for a third round pick.  Knox was a nice find, but can be inconsistent.   Vosean Joseph Never panned out, Jaquan Johnson has a chance to prove himself when Hyde and Poyer got hurt and was a liability.    Darryl Johnson and Sweeney have stuck around as backups, but will never be anything more.

 

A clear step down from the first two drafts but still got some productive players. 

 

2020  C  (D- on the first two picks B on the later picks)    Espeneza and Moss were not good picks at all considering their positions and that they were second and third round picks.   Davis disappointed us as a #2 receiver this year, but has still had some great stretches in his career and was a good 4th round pick.   Bass is one of the better kickers in the NFL and Dane Jackson is a good find for a 7th round pick.  Hodgins never could crack a deep WR group here but found his niche on the Giants.    Fromm did not really do anything good or bad, but had a catchy nickname and cool story of being an emergency COVID QB.

 

2021    D   I haven't given up on Rousseau and still think that he could be a good player,  Jury is out on that pick.   Basham was one too many DE picks and did not produce nearly enough to be worth a draft spot that could have had so many other options in the 2nd round.   I had hope for Spencer Brown, but is looking more like a backup and less like a starter.  Hamlin was filling in decently for Hyde before the tragic injury.    The rest of the draft did not yield anyone who will end up helping Buffalo.

 

2022     Incomplete.     Elam is raw and could still come around.   I feel like his lack of playing time was more due to Benford being good than him being bad.  Cook did not produce nearly as much as other Rookie running backs, but that may be more the system than the player.   Bernard had done nothing so far.   One year is too early to write off a third rounder, but I don't see what they were thinking with this.    Shakir has shown flashes and is worth a look in the next couple of years.   Arazia would have been a find if he has not been part of the legal trouble.   Benford is looking like steal.    Tenuta if I remember correctly did not make the team.

 

Too early to judge this year, but besides 2022, the drafts seem to have progressively gotten worse since 2018.     Based on early McDermott years, they are capable of drafting well, but it is hard to maintain a playoff team when your recent picks are not providing adequate depth or replacements for cap casualties.

 

The team need to go back to whatever they were doing in the early Mcdermott years.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2023 by dgrochester55

[TheFunPolice]

2 hours ago, Matt_In_NH said:

 

The statement I quoted was interpreting things in the most negative way possible possible.   The quote talked about "no run game, horrible OL and 1 WR threat.  You are picking on the WR part and talking about a couple practice squad guys who got handfuls of snaps down the stretch.  Was WR a concern? Yes it was/is.   Were there injuries to WR's?  Do teams routinely add veteran depth as the season goes on?   Did Gabe Davis perform like people wanted, no but he had 836 yards and 7 TD's. 

 

No run game.....the Bills were 7th in rushing yards per game.  Take away Allen and it falls down but the YPG were there.  Did the Bills give up huge numbers of sacks?  Allen hold the ball longer than pretty much every QB in the league.  

 

Having said that, should OL and WR be addressed?  yes they should, its just not all doom and gloom like is being thrown around.  The Bills scored the second most points in the league and were also right around there in yards per game.  They were among the best at third down conversions.

 

The panic in Bills mafia is driven by recency bias.

 

Fair enough. I just need to see Beane take offense seriously this off-season.