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1 minute ago, Rocky Landing said:

You made this point somewhere up thread, and I think in some cases you’re removing context from numbers. For example, you’ve brought up Beasley’s “production” vs Crowders. And yes, Beasley had more production Last season than Crowder. 
 

But in context, that’s not an fair comparison. Beasley is one of several vet WRs to have their career best seasons with Allen throwing them the ball. 
 

IMO, a more accurate comparison is to look at the two WR’s production before arriving in Buffalo, and Beasley’s and Crowder’s production in their seasons prior were very similar. The bigger difference was that Beasley was in Dallas with Tony Romo, and then Dak Prescott, while Crowder was on two crap teams with a string of pedestrian QBs. 
 

If Crowder is given Beasley’s role, it’s not unreasonable to expect Crowder to have a more productive ‘22 than Beasley’s ‘21.
 

And that would be an upgrade, no?

100% accurate.  But it won't change his mind, until he sees it...even then who knows.  Crowder is more explosive with ball in his hands, can also play outside in a pinch.  Although, I think Shakir will be the top backup outside.  

 

I still don't get the opinions some have about this skill group, it's top 5 in the NFL.  A bunch of weird anxiety about losing Beas, who clearly lost a step or 2, and Manny Sanders who ran hot/cold during the season.   We were a better/more explosive offense when Davis and McKenzie were both on the field.  Not to mention Motor was improving, which I think was a playcalling issue all season long (balanced attack and type of run/blocking schemes).

 

Now, add in Crowder, Cook, Shakir, and Howard...I am lost on what these posters wanted? Who did they want to sign or draft?  It would have put Davis on the bench, maybe that's what this comes down to.

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2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

It was an even distribution of investment on both offense and defense?   LOL that's ridiculous.

 

First you've taken a VERY subjective, fact-free assessment of losses.:rolleyes:

 

In reality.......they lost a near identical amount on both sides of the ball..........3102 snaps on D to 3042 on offense.

 

Major defensive losses:

-Levi Wallace........994 snaps.

- Two ROTATIONAL edge rushers.........Hughes played 550 snaps and Addison played just 482.......Rousseau had the second most snaps on the edge(530) not Addison.

- Three ROTATIONAL DT's..........Phillips played 474 snaps and Lotulelei just 317 and Vernon Butler played 285.

 

Major offensive losses:

- Starting boundary receiver........Sanders played 747 snaps

- Starting slot receiver........Beasley played 691 snaps

- Starting OG/RT and a rotational guard........Williams played 1172 snaps Jon Feliciano 442 snaps.

 

The quality of players they've added on offense is much lower than what they've added on defense.

 

Now you could say they played less snaps on defense.........I'm sure that's so..........but that's kind of my point.........they already had the #1 ranked defense in the NFL and they not only replaced their losses........they used their top 2 chips in UFA and their 5th #1 pick on D in 7 opportunities to improve that side of the ball.    

 

The offense,  particularly the OL and the lack of speed at receiver,  was filled with LESS productive players than those that left.........or not at all in the case of Sanders position.

 

And I'd add that the Bills had more in reserve on defense to start the offseason with too.   Dane Jackson proved to be a solid starter and Tre White is on schedule to return so there might not have even been a starting spot for Levi in 2022.   Boogie Basham was a 2020 second round pick who they couldn't even find snaps for so one of those rotational DE's had to go whether they inked Miller or not.   There wasn't comparable pedigree/track record in reserve and under contract to replace departing talent on offense.  Bates was about all they had in reserve on offense and he wasn't under contract.......he accounts for more than 1/3 of the guaranteed money they spent on free agents/draft picks on offense.

 

It's not complicated:

 

$90M > $25M ...........3x the investment in UFA and 3x the investment in the draft.  

 

 It really isn't justified to suggest that it wasn't decidedly lopsided.

 

 

I’m trying to figure out where the $90 million and $25 million numbers come from?


Before I comment on the rest what exactly was your plan?

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1 minute ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I’m trying to figure out where the $90 million and $25 million numbers come from?


Before I comment on the rest what exactly was your plan?

I asked the same thing up thread, he's counting the rookie class. 

 

Which I think doesn't even add up.  Von makes up $51m of the so called $90m, as well.  

 

I liked your post showing cap hits, Off vs Def, best way to show what we invested for this upcoming season at least.

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15 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

You made this point somewhere up thread, and I think in some cases you’re removing context from numbers. For example, you’ve brought up Beasley’s “production” vs Crowders. And yes, Beasley had more production Last season than Crowder. 
 

But in context, that’s not an fair comparison. Beasley is one of several vet WRs to have their career best seasons with Allen throwing them the ball. 
 

IMO, a more accurate comparison is to look at the two WR’s production before arriving in Buffalo, and Beasley’s and Crowder’s production in their seasons prior were very similar. The bigger difference was that Beasley was in Dallas with Tony Romo, and then Dak Prescott, while Crowder was on two crap teams with a string of pedestrian QBs. 
 

If Crowder is given Beasley’s role, it’s not unreasonable to expect Crowder to have a more productive ‘22 than Beasley’s ‘21.
 

And that would be an upgrade, no?

Beasley left because more than anything he was no longer a good locker room fit. Cutting him saved the team $6.1M.

 

Crowder left because one of the worst teams in the NFL wanted to upgrade from him. He was signed for 1 year, $2M. Bills took a flyer on a potential replacement that was dirt cheap.

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15 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

100% accurate.  But it won't change his mind, until he sees it...even then who knows.  Crowder is more explosive with ball in his hands, can also play outside in a pinch.  Although, I think Shakir will be the top backup outside.  

 

I still don't get the opinions some have about this skill group, it's top 5 in the NFL.  A bunch of weird anxiety about losing Beas, who clearly lost a step or 2, and Manny Sanders who ran hot/cold during the season.   We were a better/more explosive offense when Davis and McKenzie were both on the field.  Not to mention Motor was improving, which I think was a playcalling issue all season long (balanced attack and type of run/blocking schemes).

 

Now, add in Crowder, Cook, Shakir, and Howard...I am lost on what these posters wanted? Who did they want to sign or draft?  It would have put Davis on the bench, maybe that's what this comes down to.

Again, Davis still has a lot to prove… he’s been mostly inconsistent throughout the entirety of his career…. 
 

No idea if Crowder is an upgrade, he struggled on a bad Jets team last season. 
 

By all accounts Howard looks like a shell of himself in mini camp. 

 

I don’t think it’s a top 5 skills position unit. Probably middle of the pack IMO.

 

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4 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Again, Davis still has a lot to prove… he’s been mostly inconsistent throughout the entirety of his career…. 
 

No idea if Crowder is an upgrade, he struggled on a bad Jets team last season. 
 

By all accounts Howard looks like a shell of himself in mini camp. 

 

I don’t think it’s a top 5 skills position unit. Probably middle of the pack IMO.

 

Maybe. But I think Diggs is Diggs, Knox is going to get even better, and Cook may bring something to the table. Above all though, I think Josh is the best QB in the league, #1 with a bullet. They will look a whole lot better than middle-if-the-pack.

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3 minutes ago, Rico said:

Beasley left because more than anything he was no longer a good locker room fit. Cutting him saved the team $6.1M.

 

Crowder left because one of the worst teams in the NFL wanted to upgrade from him. He was signed for 1 year, $2M. Bills took a flyer on a potential replacement that was dirt cheap.

I looked at the Crowder deal as him taking less here because he saw what Beasley did. Crowder was probably the 4th best slot WR on the market behind Kirk, JuJu, and Landry. Landry is the guy I think if the Bills waited until after the draft for a WR they probably go get Landry. I’m sure his price dropped a lot from the start of free agency.

 

OG was a position I liked in the draft. But neither Zion Johnson or Kenyon Green fell to our pick.  Skyy Moore didnt fall to us in the 2nd.

 

 I’m perfectly fine with what the Bills did on offense. 
 

We have lost 3 significant WRs the last couple years, John Brown, Sanders, and Beasley. A lot of snaps and production. All of them are unsigned today. Diggs, Brown, and Beasley all had career years in Buffalo. All became better in Buffalo. On the OL, Feliciano and Williams became better players in Buffalo. Williams is also on the street. 
 

 

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11 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

You are dead wrong about me being able to offer the expanded, objective opinions that I do and not be attacked and loathed by some.

 

You guys wear on those people and run them off.   It's nearly inevitable.   That's why there are so, so few glass-not-full or objective contributors here.

 

Think of all the content someone like Lori provided here........she did it without returning fire and just one day decided that was enough of the excessively negative feedback.    Same with more recent departures like Bandit.   I could go on.......it's a long list of folks who just don't find the discussion worth the hate-back.   Most of the people I know personally from tailgating etc.. on this board gave up posting a long time ago but still read or moderate etc..

 

In general there are just too many insecure, miserable people who feel first and think later online..... just because they CAN.

 

As the saying goes.........those that think see life as a comedy........those that feel see it as a tragedy.  

 

I'm a person who doesn't take much seriously.

 

 I don't get furious about attacks on me.........I laugh and give it back and then some.   That's how I deal with snark and that's the only reason I'm still here contributing.

 

Take a look at this branch of the discussion.   I've offered actual facts, stats and historical perspective.    The replies?  Evasive and HIGHLY subjective.....stat-free, fact free.  It should be embarrassing to those people,  but it's not.  Because they are online.

 

I've always said I wouldn't post anything here that I wouldn't say to that person at a tailgate...........and it's true.   But IRL it would never get that far because when you know me you know I'm not saying things about the Buffalo Bills to offend anyone.   I joke with my friends about their BS and I take return abuse just fine.

 

As for me being married?   Yes.  And no,  I LITERALLY never fight with her because I think first before I emote.   Does that tell you something?  I also have 5 kids.   How many do you have and what would that tell someone about you?   It would tell me nothing of import about your character, btw.

 

As for me saying you would be too thin-skinned to handle the criticism I or Scott get........your reaction only supports that.   You'd join the list of people whose contribution would be missed.   Think of me as helping keep you here.:lol:

People don’t loathe you because of your opinions.  People loathe you because of the way you react to others opinions. 
 

Take Scott for example.  I like Scott.  I agree with many things he says.  I disagree with many things that he says.  More than anything, I feel bad for Scott that he usually has a pessimistic outlook on almost everything that he puts to paper on this site.  I hope, for his sake, that he doesn’t take this mantra into his everyday way of thinking.  I respect Scott a lot because he is rarely (if ever) makes personal attacks on other posters.  He harps on certain people he has debates with.  He never stops reiterating the same points over and over, even though everyone already knows he feels a certain way.  He’s annoying.  But in a cute, he’s just looking for attention kind of way.  You literally make personal attacks on posters that aren’t even involved in the conversation you’re having. 

 

From my vantage point, Scott is pessimist bills fan that is bored and enjoys the banter.   I feel that you enjoy getting under peoples skin, irritating and demeaning them.  You’re not much alike as people.   You say I’m dead wrong, I hope that I am.  
 

I’ve had my share of criticism over my 20 years here.  When I was younger and boozing 5 days a week, I’d react emotionally and I’d get personal.  As time has passed I feel that I’ve learned to take the high road in most debates that get personal more often than not.   A couple glasses of wine may contribute to me getting too personal from time to time, but overall, I feel that I’ve toned down a lot over the years.  
 

Happily married 5 years, together for 9.  No kids.  Never argue.  This discussion had me thinking what your disagreements with your family would be like.   I asked because I can’t recall you ever mentioning your wife here.  I’m sure you probably have, I must’ve missed it or forgotten.  I was under the impression that you had a handful of kids. 
 

good for you that you treat your family different than members of the board.  I realize that you get a lot of negative vitriol coming your way and responding in like would be a common reaction, but knowing that you’re an intelligent, very successful in life, husband, parent, possibly grandparent, it’s just confusing to me that you would carry yourself the way that you do here.  

 

in closing, I realize that there are several kool aid drinkers here, as there are for every team and in life in general.  We can predict what several posters are going to write before even before reading their posts.   From my experience here, you’re the guy that enjoys provoking, dispelling and antagonizing the kool aid drinkers more than doing anything else.  
 

I have respect for you, I’m just disappointed that you couldn’t be more like some of the other more respected members here in the way that they receive hate and opposing views.  It would better the community if you did,  but it’s probably too late for that.  

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8 minutes ago, Rico said:

Beasley left because more than anything he was no longer a good locker room fit. Cutting him saved the team $6.1M.

 

Crowder left because one of the worst teams in the NFL wanted to upgrade from him. He was signed for 1 year, $2M. Bills took a flyer on a potential replacement that was dirt cheap.

Regardless of Beasley’s locker room fit (which is all conjecture, btw) his production fell off significantly (over 30%) with more targets. 
 

And Crowder’s average salary on the Jets was $9.5M. Of course he walked in FA. 

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18 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Again, Davis still has a lot to prove… he’s been mostly inconsistent throughout the entirety of his career…. 
 

No idea if Crowder is an upgrade, he struggled on a bad Jets team last season. 
 

By all accounts Howard looks like a shell of himself in mini camp. 

 

I don’t think it’s a top 5 skills position unit. Probably middle of the pack IMO.

 

Allen and Diggs make it top 10. Davis has had inconsistent playing time. I’m not sure what you believe has been inconsistent about his game? He’s been clutch.

 

Crowder has durability concerns. An upgrade? I don’t know. He’s a legit weapon in the slot though.  
 

Our depth at WR is a concern. I wouldn’t be surprised if they add another veteran before camp. 

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19 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

You made this point somewhere up thread, and I think in some cases you’re removing context from numbers. For example, you’ve brought up Beasley’s “production” vs Crowders. And yes, Beasley had more production Last season than Crowder. 
 

But in context, that’s not an fair comparison. Beasley is one of several vet WRs to have their career best seasons with Allen throwing them the ball. 
 

IMO, a more accurate comparison is to look at the two WR’s production before arriving in Buffalo, and Beasley’s and Crowder’s production in their seasons prior were very similar. The bigger difference was that Beasley was in Dallas with Tony Romo, and then Dak Prescott, while Crowder was on two crap teams with a string of pedestrian QBs. 
 

If Crowder is given Beasley’s role, it’s not unreasonable to expect Crowder to have a more productive ‘22 than Beasley’s ‘21.
 

And that would be an upgrade, no?

 

 

First:

 

The main reason Crowder's production is down is because he has averaged missing 4 games per season the past 4 years.    

 

Last season he was never right.........he missed 5 games with 2 separate injuries.........THEN had to exit the season finale against Buffalo injured.

 

After two down seasons and 9 games missed in that time.........Crowder was available for cheap for a reason........his ypa tumbling to 8.8 in 2021 is a red flag because he used to be a good ypa guy...........but whether he's diminished by all the injuries now or not, he's simply not been available enough.

 

Beasley was hurt all season too and it hurt his averages..........but he PLAYED and produced..........he was 18th in the NFL in receptions.

 

Second:

 

The idea that receivers are at a big disadvantage in terms of being able to produce if their QB isn't a superstar like Josh Allen(who was only the 24th most accurate passer in the NFL at 63%, fwiw) is not statistically supported.

 

DJ Moore put up 93 catches and almost 1200 yards with Sam and Cam, throwing him the ball, basically.

 

I really don't need to expand on that list of huge producers on badly QB'd teams.......there are plenty.

 

Crowder was one of them in 2019.........he had an absurd 27 targets in the 2 games against the Bills that season.

 

Crowder got 6 targets per game last season.........Beasley had 7.    They both caught about 70% of those throws and had woeful ypa's in the 8's..........but availability is the most important ability. 

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14 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

Regardless of Beasley’s locker room fit (which is all conjecture, btw) his production fell off significantly (over 30%) with more targets. 
 

And Crowder’s average salary on the Jets was $9.5M. Of course he walked in FA. 

They have one thing in common AFAIC: I had zero expectations for Beasley when he came here, and he ended up being a great Bill. I also have zero expectations for Crowder, and I would love to be surprised again.

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2 minutes ago, Rico said:

They have one thing in common AFAIC: I had zero expectations for Beasley when he came here, and he ended up being a great Bill. I also have zero expectations for Crowder, and I would love to be surprised again.

Bills gave Beasley a decent contract. Crowder came here to get a decent contract next year.

 

One guy I think is going to surprise if given an opportunity is McKenzie. I think him and Allen have a thing.

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15 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Bills gave Beasley a decent contract. Crowder came here to get a decent contract next year.

 

One guy I think is going to surprise if given an opportunity is McKenzie. I think him and Allen have a thing.

No doubt if you have chemistry with Josh, you are ahead of the game AND you have a spot on this team AND you will play. Night and day from the Packers situation (ie. Rodgers-Kumerow). Josh is going to get what he wants, and rightly so.

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29 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

First:

 

The main reason Crowder's production is down is because he has averaged missing 4 games per season the past 4 years.    

 

Last season he was never right.........he missed 5 games with 2 separate injuries.........THEN had to exit the season finale against Buffalo injured.

 

After two down seasons and 9 games missed in that time.........Crowder was available for cheap for a reason........his ypa tumbling to 8.8 in 2021 is a red flag because he used to be a good ypa guy...........but whether he's diminished by all the injuries now or not, he's simply not been available enough.

 

Beasley was hurt all season too and it hurt his averages..........but he PLAYED and produced..........he was 18th in the NFL in receptions.

 

Second:

 

The idea that receivers are at a big disadvantage in terms of being able to produce if their QB isn't a superstar like Josh Allen(who was only the 24th most accurate passer in the NFL at 63%, fwiw) is not statistically supported.

 

DJ Moore put up 93 catches and almost 1200 yards with Sam and Cam, throwing him the ball, basically.

 

I really don't need to expand on that list of huge producers on badly QB'd teams.......there are plenty.

 

Crowder was one of them in 2019.........he had an absurd 27 targets in the 2 games against the Bills that season.

 

Crowder got 6 targets per game last season.........Beasley had 7.    They both caught about 70% of those throws and had woeful ypa's in the 8's..........but availability is the most important ability. 

Well, I guess you can remove context from numbers, and then numbers from context. Beasley’s production dropped over 30% last season from the previous with more targets
 

As to your second point, league statistics have literally nothing to do with the point you’re refuting. Zay Jones, John Brown, Cole Beasley, Stephon Diggs are all vet WRs who have had career-high seasons with Allen throwing them the ball. Pointing out that that is a statistical outlier doesn’t refute my point. One could argue that it strengthens it. 

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44 minutes ago, NewEra said:

People don’t loathe you because of your opinions.  People loathe you because of the way you react to others opinions. 
 

Take Scott for example.  I like Scott.  I agree with many things he says.  I disagree with many things that he says.  More than anything, I feel bad for Scott that he usually has a pessimistic outlook on almost everything that he puts to paper on this site.  I hope, for his sake, that he doesn’t take this mantra into his everyday way of thinking.  I respect Scott a lot because he is rarely (if ever) makes personal attacks on other posters.  He harps on certain people he has debates with.  He never stops reiterating the same points over and over, even though everyone already knows he feels a certain way.  He’s annoying.  But in a cute, he’s just looking for attention kind of way.  You literally make personal attacks on posters that aren’t even involved in the conversation you’re having. 

 

From my vantage point, Scott is pessimist bills fan that is bored and enjoys the banter.   I feel that you enjoy getting under peoples skin, irritating and demeaning them.  You’re not much alike as people.   You say I’m dead wrong, I hope that I am.  
 

I’ve had my share of criticism over my 20 years here.  When I was younger and boozing 5 days a week, I’d react emotionally and I’d get personal.  As time has passed I feel that I’ve learned to take the high road in most debates that get personal more often than not.   A couple glasses of wine may contribute to me getting too personal from time to time, but overall, I feel that I’ve toned down a lot over the years.  
 

Happily married 5 years, together for 9.  No kids.  Never argue.  This discussion had me thinking what your disagreements with your family would be like.   I asked because I can’t recall you ever mentioning your wife here.  I’m sure you probably have, I must’ve missed it or forgotten.  I was under the impression that you had a handful of kids. 
 

good for you that you treat your family different than members of the board.  I realize that you get a lot of negative vitriol coming your way and responding in like would be a common reaction, but knowing that you’re an intelligent, very successful in life, husband, parent, possibly grandparent, it’s just confusing to me that you would carry yourself the way that you do here.  

 

in closing, I realize that there are several kool aid drinkers here, as there are for every team and in life in general.  We can predict what several posters are going to write before even before reading their posts.   From my experience here, you’re the guy that enjoys provoking, dispelling and antagonizing the kool aid drinkers more than doing anything else.  
 

I have respect for you, I’m just disappointed that you couldn’t be more like some of the other more respected members here in the way that they receive hate and opposing views.  It would better the community if you did,  but it’s probably too late for that.  

 

 

My takeaway from that is you had a drinking problem that you blamed for out of control behavior........and you don't have any kids but you want to make a condescending remark about how I treat posters on here (all who have initiated any negativity that followed) by using my family as a reference.

 

You're not a young man, you should know you don't go there. 

 

This is why we keep it to football on the main board.

 

If you want to speak to me about personal things.........that's what PM's are for.

 

And btw, what you don't see on TSW is that I often bypass responding to negativity and just respond to unsolicited personal attacks on the board with PM's.........and with rare exception those people shut right the f*ck up or back pedal like a mofo on PM.........which tells you all you need to know about what their intention was in the public forum.    

 

I'm not paid to do this........so you can expect me to be gracious to assh*les in one hand and take a dump in the other and see which one fills up first.   :rolleyes:

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

Well, I guess you can remove context from numbers, and then numbers from context. Beasley’s production dropped over 30% last season from the previous with more targets
 

As to your second point, league statistics have literally nothing to do with the point you’re refuting. Zay Jones, John Brown, Cole Beasley, Stephon Diggs are all vet WRs who have had career-high seasons with Allen throwing them the ball. Pointing out that that is a statistical outlier doesn’t refute my point. One could argue that it strengthens it. 

In their 1st year Diggs, Beasley, and Brown posted career best in at least 1 category of receptions, yards, touchdowns.

 

If the trend continues expect Crowder to top at least one of these stats. 847 yards, 78 catches, or 7 TDs. 
 

I think we can all admit we’d be very happy with that outcome.

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5 hours ago, MasterStrategist said:

Noted that Davis is not high on your list.  Many teammates, front office. and coaches have been singing his praises this offseason. 

 

That's what this truly boils down to for many...is Davis who we think can be a solid/consistent #2 opposite Diggs.  Those in your camp think we needed to upgrade, while others have seen enough to have faith he will deliver for us.

Davis looks great when he looks great. I am not sold he can do it consistently, but he might. I hope he does, obviously. I'd still like to have a talented player at the position for depth and in case Davis falters.

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19 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

Well, I guess you can remove context from numbers, and then numbers from context. Beasley’s production dropped over 30% last season from the previous with more targets
 

As to your second point, league statistics have literally nothing to do with the point you’re refuting. Zay Jones, John Brown, Cole Beasley, Stephon Diggs are all vet WRs who have had career-high seasons with Allen throwing them the ball. Pointing out that that is a statistical outlier doesn’t refute my point. One could argue that it strengthens it. 

 

 

Regardless of your 30% drop number........there is no argument to be made that Beasley wasn't more productive than Crowder last season........and 3 of the last 4 seasons since Crowder's injury problems began to derail his promising career.

 

I like Crowder's talent........early in his career he was better than Beasley IMO.........but he's only been "that" guy once in the last 4 seasons.

 

The Bills are hoping he bounces back after two successive down seasons and the contract fairly reflects the risk/significant chance that he's seen better days.

 

OJ Howard is the same situation.....he went from 1,000+ combined receiving yards in '18 and '19 down to nothing the past two seasons (with Tom Brady).

 

The problem is that these guys are stepping into a lineup that has lost a SIGNIFICANT amount of production in the pass game in Beasley and Sanders.

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