716er Posted April 21, 2022 Share Posted April 21, 2022 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_Pro_Bills Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 18 hours ago, Niagara Bill said: That is why professional soldiers, intelligence and elected officials get paid the big bucks. They need to make the best decision for all, Americans, Europe, Ukraine, the future. Too bad that politics at home influence too much. Local politics affected millions of deaths in 1939, 1940. Leaving it to the professionals should make everyone nervous as the recent track record on decisions to engage in foreign interventions is a disaster. And looking up and down the bench at the current administration I'd say strategic thinking is not a strength of the team. I mean, what's Washington's strategy here with Ukraine? To pump weapons into the country fueling a war of attrition down to the last Ukrainian? Because that's sure how it looks. And if you really want to invoke the 1939 analogy and some "Minority Report" approach to policy maybe we should attack China on Monday before they attempt to invade (or maybe not invade) Taiwan sometime in the future? And perhaps identify and eliminate all kinds of potential bad actors all over the world. Because they might do something really bad later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niagara Bill Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 21 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said: Leaving it to the professionals should make everyone nervous as the recent track record on decisions to engage in foreign interventions is a disaster. And looking up and down the bench at the current administration I'd say strategic thinking is not a strength of the team. I mean, what's Washington's strategy here with Ukraine? To pump weapons into the country fueling a war of attrition down to the last Ukrainian? Because that's sure how it looks. And if you really want to invoke the 1939 analogy and some "Minority Report" approach to policy maybe we should attack China on Monday before they attempt to invade (or maybe not invade) Taiwan sometime in the future? And perhaps identify and eliminate all kinds of potential bad actors all over the world. Because they might do something really bad later. First you second paragraph on China is insulting to anyone who has half a brain. Certainly the west must have position formulated and coincide with diplomacy. Second, who do you rely on to make knowledgeable decisions, Qanon, the guy in the Buffalo hat. None of us has enough info to give conclusions but collectively the governments do if politics stops interfering. Readiness is an issue for sure but where does this line get drawn. Romania, Poland, Greece, Italy, Finland? We are watching ethnic cleansing based on politics in a friendly Christian nation by our major enemy of the past 75 years. Patton was right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 2 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said: First you second paragraph on China is insulting to anyone who has half a brain. Certainly the west must have position formulated and coincide with diplomacy. Second, who do you rely on to make knowledgeable decisions, Qanon, the guy in the Buffalo hat. None of us has enough info to give conclusions but collectively the governments do if politics stops interfering. Readiness is an issue for sure but where does this line get drawn. Romania, Poland, Greece, Italy, Finland? We are watching ethnic cleansing based on politics in a friendly Christian nation by our major enemy of the past 75 years. Patton was right. Why are you just watching? Put a Ukrainian flag in your front lawn! That’ll do it. 😉 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted April 22, 2022 Author Share Posted April 22, 2022 https://www.businessinsider.com/2-russian-oligarchs-found-dead-spain-moscow-reports-2022-4 Police are investigating the deaths of Russian oligarchs Sergey Protosenya and Vladislav Avayev. The men, along with their wives and children, were found dead within days of each other. Police suspect a marital dispute in the cases, which have remarkable similarities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted April 22, 2022 Author Share Posted April 22, 2022 Howitzers and drones. https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-biden-announces-new-military-aid-e78a7db76215a84f86586bb56122cd04 “Sometimes we will speak softly and carry a large Javelin, because we’re sending a lot of those,” Biden said, paraphrasing Theodore Roosevelt and referring to an anti-tank missile system. The new U.S. military assistance is to include 72 155mm howitzers, 144,000 artillery rounds, 72 vehicles used to tow to the howitzers onto battlefields, and over 121 Phoenix Ghost tactical drones, as well as field equipment and spare parts. Pentagon press secretary John Kirby said the drones were developed by the Air Force and fit a specific need of Ukrainian forces in the battle for the Donbas. The drones are produced by a U.S. company, Aevex Aerospace, in a program that began before Russia invaded on Feb. 24. Kirby said the Phoenix Ghost is similar to the armed Switchblade kamikaze drones that the Pentagon already is providing to Ukraine. The 72 howitzers are in addition to the 18 announced last week the U.S. was transferring to Ukraine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_Pro_Bills Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Niagara Bill said: First you second paragraph on China is insulting to anyone who has half a brain. Certainly the west must have position formulated and coincide with diplomacy. Second, who do you rely on to make knowledgeable decisions, Qanon, the guy in the Buffalo hat. None of us has enough info to give conclusions but collectively the governments do if politics stops interfering. Readiness is an issue for sure but where does this line get drawn. Romania, Poland, Greece, Italy, Finland? We are watching ethnic cleansing based on politics in a friendly Christian nation by our major enemy of the past 75 years. Patton was right. I'm sorry. I expected that given your 1939 analogy I thought you'd be in alignment with the idea of attacking China. Otherwise, I assume we wait until they attack Taiwan and you can start citing references to 1941 and the Japanese Empire's invasion of China, Korea, or other Asian nations. As for diplomacy, there was little to no diplomacy in addressing Russia and their security concerns which US official dismissed without even addressing. Just do what we say was the negotiating position. That worked out great for everyone. Some inside the NATO alliance suggest many member nations want to prolong the war as long as possible as a way to weaken Russia regardless of the costs to the Ukrainian nation and citizens. I tend to believe that. My final assessment is that given the Russian military's piss poor performance against Ukraine's forces are we overstating or miscalculating the threat presented to Western Europe and the U.S. by Russian conventional forces? I expect that in a head-to-head fight against our land, sea, and air services the American military would likely annihilate the Russia forces in a matter of weeks if not days. So what are we really worried about? Edited April 22, 2022 by All_Pro_Bills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted April 22, 2022 Author Share Posted April 22, 2022 4 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said: I'm sorry. I expected that given your 1939 analogy I thought you'd be in alignment with the idea of attacking China. Otherwise, I assume we wait until they attack Taiwan and you can start citing references to 1941 and the Japanese Empire's invasion of China, Korea, or other Asian nations. As for diplomacy, there was little to no diplomacy in addressing Russia and their security concerns which US official dismissed without even addressing. Just do what we say was the negotiating position. That worked out great for everyone. Some inside the NATO alliance suggest many member nations want to prolong the war as long as possible as a way to weaken Russia regardless of the costs to the Ukrainian nation and citizens. I tend to believe that. My final assessment is that given the Russian military's piss poor performance against Ukraine's forces are we overstating or miscalculating the threat presented to Western Europe and the U.S. by Russian conventional forces? I expect that in a head-to-head fight against our land, sea, and air services the American military would likely annihilate the Russia forces in a matter of weeks if not days. So what are we really worried about? What Russian security concerns??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_Pro_Bills Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 3 minutes ago, Tiberius said: What Russian security concerns??? Its all out there. You should catch up on events and diplomatic conversations that occurred prior to the invasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted April 22, 2022 Author Share Posted April 22, 2022 10 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said: Its all out there. You should catch up on events and diplomatic conversations that occurred prior to the invasion. There were none. Ukraine was not a threat to Russia, that's just Putin's propaganda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 27 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said: My final assessment is that given the Russian military's piss poor performance against Ukraine's forces are we overstating or miscalculating the threat presented to Western Europe and the U.S. by Russian conventional forces? I expect that in a head-to-head fight against our land, sea, and air services the American military would likely annihilate the Russia forces in a matter of weeks if not days. So what are we really worried about? That may be true, but the reality is that there are many other considerations. Where do we "annihilate the Russian forces in a matter of weeks," and it wouldn't be "days." How do we get our forces to this battle? How do we house them, feed them, supply them? Make no mistake, there would be huge losses in such a conflict, and it if ever got nuclear, well, use your imagination. While you are not one who has done so, a few here who have recommended direct US involvement don't seem to have ever considered the how and where, and it is much more complicated than the uniformed view that you simply sterilize the airspace. Anyone who suggest that has never operated a tactical airplane under a significant SAM umbrella, which is what the Ukraine is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted April 22, 2022 Author Share Posted April 22, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeesforclosers Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 Per Russia, their losses are: KIA, 13,441 MIA, 7,000 WIA, no number given. 116 Sailors when down with the Moskva, 100+ are still missing and at this point are probably lost at sea. Make of this what you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted April 22, 2022 Author Share Posted April 22, 2022 Ya, missing 🙄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillStime Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted April 22, 2022 Author Share Posted April 22, 2022 3 minutes ago, BillStime said: Putin's boy Blow it up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted April 22, 2022 Author Share Posted April 22, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted April 22, 2022 Author Share Posted April 22, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 33 minutes ago, BillStime said: Who in their right mind gives a rat's about John Bolton. The single worst Trump appointee, and there were many. Some people have a "to do" list. Bolton has always had a "to invade" list and it is very long. The guy has never met a country he didn't want to go to war with, and I for one, have no interest in any of his speculations. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillStime Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 10 minutes ago, sherpa said: Who in their right mind gives a rat's about John Bolton. The single worst Trump appointee, and there were many. Some people have a "to do" list. Bolton has always had a "to invade" list and it is very long. The guy has never met a country he didn't want to go to war with, and I for one, have no interest in any of his speculations. Youre right - I should have just posted this Tweet w Conalds own words But who are you kidding? We all know Trump would have handed Ukraine over to Putin had he won just like he did Syria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeesforclosers Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 31 minutes ago, Tiberius said: I'm behind on this part of the Ukraine war news. So critically important bits of Russian industry have all started catching fire at the same time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 19 minutes ago, sherpa said: Who in their right mind gives a rat's about John Bolton. The single worst Trump appointee, and there were many. Some people have a "to do" list. Bolton has always had a "to invade" list and it is very long. The guy has never met a country he didn't want to go to war with, and I for one, have no interest in any of his speculations. Bolton is a moron. So Putin was waiting for Trump to pull out of NATO (another lie)...to do what? And when Trump lost the election, Putin still invaded Ukraine while the US was still in NATO. Solid "thinking" there, Johnny! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niagara Bill Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 3 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said: I'm sorry. I expected that given your 1939 analogy I thought you'd be in alignment with the idea of attacking China. Otherwise, I assume we wait until they attack Taiwan and you can start citing references to 1941 and the Japanese Empire's invasion of China, Korea, or other Asian nations. As for diplomacy, there was little to no diplomacy in addressing Russia and their security concerns which US official dismissed without even addressing. Just do what we say was the negotiating position. That worked out great for everyone. Some inside the NATO alliance suggest many member nations want to prolong the war as long as possible as a way to weaken Russia regardless of the costs to the Ukrainian nation and citizens. I tend to believe that. My final assessment is that given the Russian military's piss poor performance against Ukraine's forces are we overstating or miscalculating the threat presented to Western Europe and the U.S. by Russian conventional forces? I expect that in a head-to-head fight against our land, sea, and air services the American military would likely annihilate the Russia forces in a matter of weeks if not days. So what are we really worried about? 1. We should never attack first, but like Hitler, you must be ready to respond immediately. Putin knew we would nit. 2. This is not about security, it us about ethnic cleansing now. Allowing people Russians to take over Ukraine for the second time, and punishing if Ukraine fir the 3rd time in a century. 3. I think you are right about letting Russia weaken itself. 4. But Ryssia I am sure gas nit used its force. Both US and Russia could not contain issues in Afghanistan for 20 years of effort. 5. Russia has defeated Ukraine. It is the people they cannot defeat. Like the Palestinians or Taliban. Ukrainians people will not be communists again. Freedom ir death. We should be fully supporting this. Is this just not a giant Korea 1951. Good discussion All Pro😀 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted April 22, 2022 Author Share Posted April 22, 2022 28 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said: I'm behind on this part of the Ukraine war news. So critically important bits of Russian industry have all started catching fire at the same time? This is the first I’m hearing of it. Did you see the two oligarchs that killed their families and themselves? Something is up 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted April 22, 2022 Author Share Posted April 22, 2022 And this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeesforclosers Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 39 minutes ago, Tiberius said: This is the first I’m hearing of it. Did you see the two oligarchs that killed their families and themselves? Something is up What the ***** is up with that country. I might just watch Tucker Carlson tonight, so he can go on explaining why Russia's "interests" need to be respected or whatever he's on about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 1 hour ago, Niagara Bill said: 1. We should never attack first, but like Hitler, you must be ready to respond immediately. Putin knew we would nit. 2. This is not about security, it us about ethnic cleansing now. Allowing people Russians to take over Ukraine for the second time, and punishing if Ukraine fir the 3rd time in a century. 3. I think you are right about letting Russia weaken itself. 4. But Ryssia I am sure gas nit used its force. Both US and Russia could not contain issues in Afghanistan for 20 years of effort. 5. Russia has defeated Ukraine. It is the people they cannot defeat. Like the Palestinians or Taliban. Ukrainians people will not be communists again. Freedom ir death. We should be fully supporting this. Is this just not a giant Korea 1951. Good discussion All Pro😀 Very strange post, and I hesitate to quote it. Still, I have never seen a post of yours that talks about specifics regarding how to do what you want, and what the cost would be. As background, I think comparing Putin to Hitler vis a vis territorial acquisition is absurd. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted April 22, 2022 Author Share Posted April 22, 2022 Russia might be heading for turmoil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niagara Bill Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 2 hours ago, sherpa said: Very strange post, and I hesitate to quote it. Still, I have never seen a post of yours that talks about specifics regarding how to do what you want, and what the cost would be. As background, I think comparing Putin to Hitler vis a vis territorial acquisition is absurd. I will consider your comments.....nah 😆 Russians have been involved the ethnic cleansing before. Never with a nation like Ukraine. He is making same type of claims as Hitler. IMHO he is a wannabe and copy cat, Russian style. The difference is his nation dies not back him, but he does not care, Communism vs Democratic Republic. Lenin,Stalin, Putin, same mould. Trump may think Putin is brilliant, he is, but that does not make him less like Hitler, it makes him more like Hitler. Russia is a very violent society. The country is run by ex KGB. If you know anyone from there you would know. Have a good day, 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 12 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said: I will consider your comments.....nah 😆 Russians have been involved the ethnic cleansing before. Never with a nation like Ukraine. He is making same type of claims as Hitler. IMHO he is a wannabe and copy cat, Russian style. The difference is his nation dies not back him, but he does not care, Communism vs Democratic Republic. Lenin,Stalin, Putin, same mould. Trump may think Putin is brilliant, he is, but that does not make him less like Hitler, it makes him more like Hitler. Russia is a very violent society. The country is run by ex KGB. If you know anyone from there you would know. Have a good day, Nothing in this post addresses my challenge to you, which was how and where do we do what you seemingly want to do. Expressing disdain to Putin and the culture is not a strategy for efficacy. It is merely an opinion shared by all. I don't "know" Russians, but I have been to Moscow a few times and have a view. That's why I've only been there a few times. Hate the place, but that doesn't provide a realistic strategy on how to handle it without triggering WWIII. And I'm having a great day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niagara Bill Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 1 hour ago, sherpa said: Nothing in this post addresses my challenge to you, which was how and where do we do what you seemingly want to do. Expressing disdain to Putin and the culture is not a strategy for efficacy. It is merely an opinion shared by all. I don't "know" Russians, but I have been to Moscow a few times and have a view. That's why I've only been there a few times. Hate the place, but that doesn't provide a realistic strategy on how to handle it without triggering WWIII. And I'm having a great day. I don't do challenges. Glad your day is great...mine too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 21 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said: I don't do challenges. Glad your day is great...mine too Then perhaps you might consider ceasing challenges if you're not going to offer solutions. You've got tons of "do this" without any "how." Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niagara Bill Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 47 minutes ago, sherpa said: Then perhaps you might consider ceasing challenges if you're not going to offer solutions. You've got tons of "do this" without any "how." Just a thought. Bad thought. I do not pretend to know more than experts like military folks and intelligence community. I see issues, directions to consider and obvious situations that need to be addressed. I know one thing. Putin needs to be controlled, now, thru finance, thru power, thru force or thru a bullet from a comrade. How that happens is over my head. Ukraine deserves help. They are one of the few nations that stand tall for their freedom and country. Not like many others. They are spiritual, family, Christian people who want freedom. Putin will not stop here. We can talk in 4 months. The world will be different. The US will be consumed in internal elections, the rest of the world will not be important. Putin will have his way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillStime Posted April 23, 2022 Share Posted April 23, 2022 4 minutes ago, DRsGhost said: Hey @BillStime... ***** off So the Trump campaign didn’t meet with the Russians 140+ times? Coordinate campaign data and Wikileaks drops? Simple yes or no will suffice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted April 23, 2022 Author Share Posted April 23, 2022 All these howitzers going in to Ukraine can have a big effect on the battlefield once they are in place, the rain stops and Ukraine begins to counterattack in earnest. Just hope they can be protected from air attack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted April 23, 2022 Author Share Posted April 23, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeesforclosers Posted April 23, 2022 Share Posted April 23, 2022 17 hours ago, Tiberius said: Russia might be heading for turmoil Man, it's like Russia is going through all the stages of the Vietnam experience in fast forward. There's growing chatter that May 9th will be Russia's formal declaration of war against Ukraine instead of the big victory celebration. The much vaunted offensive in the Donbass is doing what everyone though it would so far, which is gain ground here and there and achieve very, very little. Now if Russia is going to declare war on May 9th, expect some kind of insane gesture to try and "reset" the situation. Like Russia also declaring war on Finland or Sweden, or the Baltics. Quite possibly on us, so they can have a life-or-death "struggle for survival" that's entirely of their own making, due to their own stupidity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted April 24, 2022 Author Share Posted April 24, 2022 21 hours ago, Coffeesforclosers said: Man, it's like Russia is going through all the stages of the Vietnam experience in fast forward. There's growing chatter that May 9th will be Russia's formal declaration of war against Ukraine instead of the big victory celebration. The much vaunted offensive in the Donbass is doing what everyone though it would so far, which is gain ground here and there and achieve very, very little. Now if Russia is going to declare war on May 9th, expect some kind of insane gesture to try and "reset" the situation. Like Russia also declaring war on Finland or Sweden, or the Baltics. Quite possibly on us, so they can have a life-or-death "struggle for survival" that's entirely of their own making, due to their own stupidity. It's like the black knight scene in Monty Python's Holy Grail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeesforclosers Posted April 24, 2022 Share Posted April 24, 2022 1 hour ago, Tiberius said: It's like the black knight scene in Monty Python's Holy Grail Sad. And why not? His pet patriarch will bless anything he does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted April 24, 2022 Share Posted April 24, 2022 It's more like the scenes in The Godfather, where they're baptizing Michael's son while the mobsters are getting whacked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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