It's Time to Mandate Vaccines

[Big Blitz]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

How many should have died to make you happy?

 

 

Whoever chooses to not get vaccinated is their business not yours.  

 

How many fully vaccinated lab rats have died due to "exposure" to unvaccinated Americans?  

 

 

What's the number?

[oldmanfan]

50 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

Whoever chooses to not get vaccinated is their business not yours.  

 

How many fully vaccinated lab rats have died due to "exposure" to unvaccinated Americans?  

 

 

What's the number?

About 8,000 out of 700,000 some deaths and out of about 180 million vaccinated. 
 

You wanted millions to die because you wanted to do nothing

[Bockeye]

What main stream media will not report…

 

https://m.theepochtimes.com/mkt_breakingnews/covid-19-cases-hospitalizations-plummet-in-southern-us-rise-in-northern-states_4040470.html?utm_source=newsnoe&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=breaking-2021-10-09-2&mktids=38f375bdab04356e671057034054aff2&est=fs4N5FE32NdLT5KMeNvS6qFM3ylElUELqVkTv1bzsc8Gk0iKCM1%2F7zFRz42ITr2lTx62HX0sqw%3D%3D

[oldmanfan]

48 minutes ago, Bockeye said:

What main stream media will not report…

 

https://m.theepochtimes.com/mkt_breakingnews/covid-19-cases-hospitalizations-plummet-in-southern-us-rise-in-northern-states_4040470.html?utm_source=newsnoe&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=breaking-2021-10-09-2&mktids=38f375bdab04356e671057034054aff2&est=fs4N5FE32NdLT5KMeNvS6qFM3ylElUELqVkTv1bzsc8Gk0iKCM1%2F7zFRz42ITr2lTx62HX0sqw%3D%3D

The Washington Post, NPR, NBC, US news and World Report among others all have had stories in the past few weeks about his the infection and hospitalization rates are falling.  Nice try.

[B-Man]

 

 

UPDATE YOUR NEWSPEAK DICTIONARIES ACCORDINGLY: 

 

 

Merriam-Webster Thought Police Just Changed The Definition Of ‘Anti-Vaxxer’ To Attack Opponents Of Government Mandates.

 

 

https://thefederalist.com/2021/10/08/merriam-webster-thought-police-just-changed-the-definition-of-anti-vaxxer-to-attack-opponents-of-government-mandates/

[Big Blitz]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

About 8,000 out of 700,000 some deaths and out of about 180 million vaccinated. 
 

You wanted millions to die because you wanted to do nothing

 

 

Millions?  Billions baby!  I was hoping we'd reset back to the stone age.

 

 

 

So......you sound like you oppose death.  Why do you support letting it continue to happen?  People are dying.  What are you doing about it and why are you good with death still happening?

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

10 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

 

 

Finally this is a public health problem.  It requires the public to work together to attack it.  We did so with previous such crises such as polio.  Why aren’t we doing so now?  I think the answer is obvious.

 

Good discussion for sure.  Appreciate your thoughts.

What is the obvious answer?  

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

7 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

About 8,000 out of 700,000 some deaths and out of about 180 million vaccinated. 
 

You wanted millions to die because you wanted to do nothing

Seriously, of course we have no idea what would have happened under a Clinton presidency, but let’s breathe a sigh of relief that DJT was the 45th when this was unleashed.   
 

Given how the virus has raged under Biden and Harris when the vax was literally placed in their hands, the death count in ‘21, and where we are today we would likely be in the tens of millions under their leadership.   All they truly needed to do was lead.  They had months to deal with the infrastructure, delivery system, message points, and to plan for outreach to those individuals likely pre-inclined to be distrustful of such things.  

[Orlando Buffalo]

7 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

 

UPDATE YOUR NEWSPEAK DICTIONARIES ACCORDINGLY: 

 

 

Merriam-Webster Thought Police Just Changed The Definition Of ‘Anti-Vaxxer’ To Attack Opponents Of Government Mandates.

 

 

https://thefederalist.com/2021/10/08/merriam-webster-thought-police-just-changed-the-definition-of-anti-vaxxer-to-attack-opponents-of-government-mandates/

We have turned people into two camps- fully trusting of our government or antivaxxer. I am a vaccinated anti vaxxer then. 

[oldmanfan]

2 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Seriously, of course we have no idea what would have happened under a Clinton presidency, but let’s breathe a sigh of relief that DJT was the 45th when this was unleashed.   
 

Given how the virus has raged under Biden and Harris when the vax was literally placed in their hands, the death count in ‘21, and where we are today we would likely be in the tens of millions under their leadership.   All they truly needed to do was lead.  They had months to deal with the infrastructure, delivery system, message points, and to plan for outreach to those individuals likely pre-inclined to be distrustful of such things.  

Because you have too many idiots in this country who refuse to believe science and instead make this into a ridiculous political issue.

7 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

Millions?  Billions baby!  I was hoping we'd reset back to the stone age.

 

 

 

So......you sound like you oppose death.  Why do you support letting it continue to happen?  People are dying.  What are you doing about it and why are you good with death still happening?

I don’t.  I want everyone who isn’t vaccinated to do so.  You are against everything that could help, vaccines, masks, etc.  As near as I can tell you’d be fine with your loved ones dying as long as it met with your political views.

[billsfan5121]

3 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Because you have too many idiots in this country who refuse to believe science and instead make this into a ridiculous political issue.

I don’t.  I want everyone who isn’t vaccinated to do so.  You are against everything that could help, vaccines, masks, etc.  As near as I can tell you’d be fine with your loved ones dying as long as it met with your political views.

Here’s where I have a problem. Someone is an idiot if they are concerned about a new vaccine?

 

Ive followed this thread for a while now and I see you are in a research field and have no problems telling us all how qualified you are to make assertions about the vaccine.

 

So I am coming to you, who is a qualified researcher in the science field as someone who is concerned with the vaccine. All I ask is you answer honestly and don’t attack. I’m willing to listen.

 

So with that said, can you answer 2 simple questions.

 

1) with your acquired knowledge and years of research, can you say with 100% certainty that we can know without a shadow of a doubt that this vaccine WILL NOT cause other medical problems 10 years from now, 15 years from now, etc.?

 

2) if you can answer yes to that claim, why would it be different this time vs others when drugs were deemed safe and were approved for use by our very own government, only to be found to cause other health problems after more research and years of being in use?

[Sundancer]

22 minutes ago, billsfan5121 said:

Here’s where I have a problem. Someone is an idiot if they are concerned about a new vaccine?

 

Ive followed this thread for a while now and I see you are in a research field and have no problems telling us all how qualified you are to make assertions about the vaccine.

 

So I am coming to you, who is a qualified researcher in the science field as someone who is concerned with the vaccine. All I ask is you answer honestly and don’t attack. I’m willing to listen.

 

So with that said, can you answer 2 simple questions.

 

1) with your acquired knowledge and years of research, can you say with 100% certainty that we can know without a shadow of a doubt that this vaccine WILL NOT cause other medical problems 10 years from now, 15 years from now, etc.?

 

2) if you can answer yes to that claim, why would it be different this time vs others when drugs were deemed safe and were approved for use by our very own government, only to be found to cause other health problems after more research and years of being in use?

Since you frame this so childishly, here’s what I can say with 100% certainty and without a shadow of a doubt: Anyone who gets the vaccine will dramatically lower their own chance of dying and going to the hospital, and significantly lower their ability to transmit and kill other people, including those at risk and other unvaccinated folk.

 

Can you make the same statement 100% without a shadow of a doubt about unvaccinated people? No, you cannot. 
 

Stop thinking with your Twitter MD and listen to the scientists. This antivax anti science movement is strongest here in the USA. Being anti progress is nothing to be proud of. 

[billsfan5121]

38 minutes ago, Sundancer said:

Since you frame this so childishly, here’s what I can say with 100% certainty and without a shadow of a doubt: Anyone who gets the vaccine will dramatically lower their own chance of dying and going to the hospital, and significantly lower their ability to transmit and kill other people, including those at risk and other unvaccinated folk.

 

Can you make the same statement 100% without a shadow of a doubt about unvaccinated people? No, you cannot. 
 

Stop thinking with your Twitter MD and listen to the scientists. This antivax anti science movement is strongest here in the USA. Being anti progress is nothing to be proud of. 

Considering this message board is the only form of “social media” I use, your stereotype that I must be antivax and get my information from social media is false. 

Also, you say I asked childishly. You are right but I did that because I was quoting a childish reply. Is it not childish to say “too many idiots” because their opinion differs? Or is that ok because its coming from your side of a debate?
 

I have been vaccinated for everything that’s required since birth, and so have my children. I apologize that I live a healthy lifestyle and follow all protocols that have been passed down since day one, so either those protocols are keeping me and the public safe, or you need to admit they are pointless. You can choose.

 

By the way, you’re promoting the vaccine on social media in the form of a discussion board. I guess because it’s your opinion that makes it ok if I got my info from social media? 
 

You should also quit saying to trust science when science changes through research. Because science say “_____” today does not mean that holds true for eternity. I assume you know that though and are simply choosing to ignore that little bit of truth.

 

Also while you’re on your high horse caring about all of society and what prevents hospitalization, I assume you’re a big advocate for diet and exercise, seeing how heart disease is the number one killer in the US. I’m well aware heart disease isn’t contagious, but you’re telling me I should get the vaccine to lower the chances of hospitalization. Do you care about the other choices I make in life?

 

Another issue I have is the claim that the unvaccinated are the ones spreading it. Let me ask this. If breakthrough infections happen, we can say with certainty that vaccinated people can still get COVID. But we will hear that it’s far less. How can we know that? If it most often keeps you asymptomatic, how do we know how many people get breakthrough infections? It’s not as if you randomly decide to get tested for the fun of it. So if there’s only reports of __ number of people, wouldn’t it stand to reason that it’s much higher? So the vaccinated are spreading it as well.

 

Also, if you’re vaccinated, why do you care so much what someone else does? Do you worry about people who may or may not have their polio vaccine? Measles? My guess is no. But why not? 

Now you might say that some people cannot get vaccinated because of a condition. Why does this condition matter more than others? Do you only eat peanuts in your house out of fear that someone near you might be highly allergic? You are picking the vaccine to make a stand when there are likely other areas of your life that would suggest you don’t always care how your decisions effect other people.

 

Also in your rebuttal, you simply tried to turn it on me but you never answered. Can we be 100% certain the vaccine will not cause problems down the road?

 

Lastly, too many people out there go out to dinner and bars and consume alcohol, then drive home putting other people at risk. I believe we should ban alcohol because it is a risk to you and others around you. Would that be ok?

Edited October 10, 2021 by billsfan5121

[unbillievable]

We have reached a turning point in society where the people are too informed; a monumental shift where knowledge is no longer exclusive to select "teachers" and "experts" that parent the ignorant masses.

 

No longer children, limited by the constraint of not knowing how or why, we now face the the much more insidious question of "Do I want to?"

 

 

[oldmanfan]

2 hours ago, billsfan5121 said:

Here’s where I have a problem. Someone is an idiot if they are concerned about a new vaccine?

 

Ive followed this thread for a while now and I see you are in a research field and have no problems telling us all how qualified you are to make assertions about the vaccine.

 

So I am coming to you, who is a qualified researcher in the science field as someone who is concerned with the vaccine. All I ask is you answer honestly and don’t attack. I’m willing to listen.

 

So with that said, can you answer 2 simple questions.

 

1) with your acquired knowledge and years of research, can you say with 100% certainty that we can know without a shadow of a doubt that this vaccine WILL NOT cause other medical problems 10 years from now, 15 years from now, etc.?

 

2) if you can answer yes to that claim, why would it be different this time vs others when drugs were deemed safe and were approved for use by our very own government, only to be found to cause other health problems after more research and years of being in use?

First this is not a drug, it is a vaccine.  Second, no one including me has ever said that we can guarantee with 100% confidence that there will not be an untoward side effect.  In fact, because of the strenuous system that has been put in place by different regulatory agencies around the world, the very rare cases of blood clots with the J&J vaccine and myocarditis with Moderna and Phizef were found.

 

As for 10-15 years from now, let’s look at results from other vaccines first.  We have never seen side effects crop up with any at that time frame after immunization.  And if you can find one let me know.  The rare side effects that have been seen from past vaccines were all seen within weeks, as again were the rare ones with the Covid vaccines.

 

 Now let’s focus on the mRNA ones since they are “new”.  First they are not new, decades of research have gone into them but yes, this is the first clinical application.  These vaccines have the mRNA, some lipids for solubility, and salts.  Which of those scientifically would cause an incident 10 years later?  Lipids or salts ?  How?  The mRNA is translated into the spike

 protein, then degraded.  It does not alter your DNA at all and is not gene therapy, and if you are a scientist and have ever taken introductory cell or molecular biology you know this.

 

Have there been bad drugs that even after all the clinical trials came up with really bad side effects that weren’t found?  Yes.  Thalidomide is the one always quoted and after that regulatory requirements were tightened.  I sit on an FDA devices panel and the regulatory requirements are very strict.  But even with that there could be an extraordinarily rare event.  One was the COX inhibitors for as anti-inflammatories which had to be pulled within months when folks started having heart attacks.  Again this was found within months, not 10-15 years later.

 

You say you are a scientist so you should know science and medicine are rarely 100% fields, unless you are talking about things like the law of gravity.  Medicine is, as I have now said numerous times, is about benefit vs. risk.  There is no question that the vaccine benefit far outweighs the risk.  There is no question masks help alleviate droplet spread, or that social distancing helps prevent spread.  But the same folks who deny the science of vaccines deny those as well.  And it’s because of politics.  And if you’re a scientist, you should look at the data and not play political games.

 

Edited October 10, 2021 by oldmanfan

[All_Pro_Bills]

40 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

You say you are a scientist so you should know science and medicine are rarely 100% fields, unless you are talking about things like the law of gravity.  Medicine is, as I have now said numerous times, is about benefit vs. risk.  There is no question that the vaccine benefit far outweighs the risk.  There is no question masks help alleviate droplet spread, or that social distancing helps prevent spread.  But the same folks who deny the science of vaccines deny those as well.  And it’s because of politics.  And if you’re a scientist, you should look at the data and not play political games.

 

The core issue with the mandates has nothing to do with science.  It's politicians and bureaucrats that are co-opting science and medicine and selectively using it (while ignoring science that doesn't support their positions) as a pretext for issuing all kinds of draconian edicts and imposing multi-tiered social restrictions and increasing levels of authoritarian rule.  And instituting some "collective" social doctrine that just doesn't exist in our system of laws and constitutional protections of the individual.  Does anyone believe these restrictions are going to go away with the COVID pandemic ending? 

 

And in the process they have done great damage to the credibility and effectiveness of science and the medical community.  The result is a large percentage of the population, some that were already distrustful, don't believe much of what is passed off as science.  Especially when so much effort is made to suppress and silence ideas and experts that express views and insights that contradict the prevailing narrative.  "Vaccines are safe and effective".  So shut up and stop bringing up any other facts or ideas.  Just do what we say or else.  Under that context why trust the science? 

 

Look at how they totally trashed Ivermectin.  What's the motivation for that?  Its not science I can say for sure.  Does it work for COVID?  Personally I can't say but there is little doubt from officials in India that it was the "cure" that suppressed their Delta outbreak.  But in the US its "horse de-wormer".  Never mind its an approved FDA drug for several serious indications in humans.  The suspicion this all creates is anything that's cheap, plentiful, and effective is a threat to the vaccine mandate and the people running policy.  So the science gets trashed. 

 

The problem isn't the vaxed or the unvaxed, its the politicians ruining science and medicine for their own objectives and their suspension of the free thinking process of discovery through the scientific method.  That's our common enemy - ignorance generated by politicians.

 

Edited October 10, 2021 by All_Pro_Bills

[billsfan5121]

33 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

First this is not a drug, it is a vaccine.  Second, no one including me has ever said that we can guarantee with 100% confidence that there will not be an untoward side effect.  In fact, because of the strenuous system that has been put in place by different regulatory agencies around the world, the very rare cases of blood clots with the J&J vaccine and myocarditis with Moderna and Phizef were found.

 

As for 10-15 years from now, let’s look at results from other vaccines first.  We have never seen side effects crop up with any at that time frame after immunization.  And if you can find one let me know.  The rare side effects that have been seen from past vaccines were all seen within weeks, as again were the rare ones with the Covid vaccines.

 

 Now let’s focus on the mRNA ones since they are “new”.  First they are not new, decades of research have gone into them but yes, this is the first clinical application.  These vaccines have the mRNA, some lipids for solubility, and salts.  Which of those scientifically would cause an incident 10 years later?  Lipids or salts ?  How?  The mRNA is translated into the spike

 protein, then degraded.  It does not alter your DNA at all and is not gene therapy, and if you are a scientist and have ever taken introductory cell or molecular biology you know this.

 

Have there been bad drugs that even after all the clinical trials came up with really bad side effects that weren’t found?  Yes.  Thalidomide is the one always quoted and after that regulatory requirements were tightened.  I sit on an FDA devices panel and the regulatory requirements are very strict.  But even with that there could be an extraordinarily rare event.  One was the COX inhibitors for as anti-inflammatories which had to be pulled within months when folks started having heart attacks.  Again this was found within months, not 10-15 years later.

 

You say you are a scientist so you should know science and medicine are rarely 100% fields, unless you are talking about things like the law of gravity.  Medicine is, as I have now said numerous times, is about benefit vs. risk.  There is no question that the vaccine benefit far outweighs the risk.  There is no question masks help alleviate droplet spread, or that social distancing helps prevent spread.  But the same folks who deny the science of vaccines deny those as well.  And it’s because of politics.  And if you’re a scientist, you should look at the data and not play political games.

 

I did not say I was a scientist. I said I was asking you the researcher and then addressed myself as someone concerned about the vaccine. And I ask questions the way I do because I am genuinely concerned about long term effects of the vaccine, not because I am antivax. But because I’m genuinely concerned, I get called antivax or an idiot by people who claim to be professionals in the field. You will never have an open dialogue about something you feel so passionate about when you belittle the very people you claim to care about. 
 

So again, I am not a scientist. I am not a researcher. However, I am not antivax nor an idiot simply because I have real concerns. I am highly educated in a non-science field so I would be more than happy to have a real conversation. Quit dismissing people and listen to the concerns. It will work much better for you in the long run. This is just a message board but we are all people, no different than your own family and friends.

 

Also, the pill to help quit smoking, Chantix, was approved (2006) and effects were not realized until last month, 15 years later, so it does happen.

Edited October 10, 2021 by billsfan5121

[Sundancer]

38 minutes ago, billsfan5121 said:

I did not say I was a scientist. I said I was asking you the researcher and then addressed myself as someone concerned about the vaccine. And I ask questions the way I do because I am genuinely concerned about long term effects of the vaccine, not because I am antivax. But because I’m genuinely concerned, I get called antivax or an idiot by people who claim to be professionals in the field. You will never have an open dialogue about something you feel so passionate about when you belittle the very people you claim to care about. 
 

So again, I am not a scientist. I am not a researcher. However, I am not antivax nor an idiot simply because I have real concerns. I am highly educated in a non-science field so I would be more than happy to have a real conversation. Quit dismissing people and listen to the concerns. It will work much better for you in the long run. This is just a message board but we are all people, no different than your own family and friends.

 

Also, the pill to help quit smoking, Chantix, was approved (2006) and effects were not realized until last month, 15 years later, so it does happen.

 

What's your doctor (and pretty much every doctor) recommend? It's exciting to feel more informed than the people whose job it is to care for your health. But also dumb. If I decided to take up smoking, I harm no one (for the most part) but me, ignore my doctor, and am being idiotic about my health. 

 

Pandemics are different of course than smoking and overeating because you're not just harming yourself, you're part of a chain of spread--with the inconvenience of two trips to a doctor's office to break that chain and ensure you're not burdening the medical system. The safest and most effective way to break that chain and keep the hospitals free of this added burden at the moment is vaccines. 

Edited October 10, 2021 by Sundancer

[oldmanfan]

36 minutes ago, billsfan5121 said:

I did not say I was a scientist. I said I was asking you the researcher and then addressed myself as someone concerned about the vaccine. And I ask questions the way I do because I am genuinely concerned about long term effects of the vaccine, not because I am antivax. But because I’m genuinely concerned, I get called antivax or an idiot by people who claim to be professionals in the field. You will never have an open dialogue about something you feel so passionate about when you belittle the very people you claim to care about. 
 

So again, I am not a scientist. I am not a researcher. However, I am not antivax nor an idiot simply because I have real concerns. I am highly educated in a non-science field so I would be more than happy to have a real conversation. Quit dismissing people and listen to the concerns. It will work much better for you in the long run. This is just a message board but we are all people, no different than your own family and friends.

 

Also, the pill to help quit smoking, Chantix, was approved (2006) and effects were not realized until last month, 15 years later, so it does happen.

Read what I wrote.  These are facts and data, they are what should be used to drive decision making and not unfounded hysteria.

40 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

The core issue with the mandates has nothing to do with science.  It's politicians and bureaucrats that are co-opting science and medicine and selectively using it (while ignoring science that doesn't support their positions) as a pretext for issuing all kinds of draconian edicts and imposing multi-tiered social restrictions and increasing levels of authoritarian rule.  And instituting some "collective" social doctrine that just doesn't exist in our system of laws and constitutional protections of the individual.  Does anyone believe these restrictions are going to go away with the COVID pandemic ending? 

 

And in the process they have done great damage to the credibility and effectiveness of science and the medical community.  The result is a large percentage of the population, some that were already distrustful, don't believe much of what is passed off as science.  Especially when so much effort is made to suppress and silence ideas and experts that express views and insights that contradict the prevailing narrative.  "Vaccines are safe and effective".  So shut up and stop bringing up any other facts or ideas.  Just do what we say or else.  Under that context why trust the science? 

 

Look at how they totally trashed Ivermectin.  What's the motivation for that?  Its not science I can say for sure.  Does it work for COVID?  Personally I can't say but there is little doubt from officials in India that it was the "cure" that suppressed their Delta outbreak.  But in the US its "horse de-wormer".  Never mind its an approved FDA drug for several serious indications in humans.  The suspicion this all creates is anything that's cheap, plentiful, and effective is a threat to the vaccine mandate and the people running policy.  So the science gets trashed. 

 

The problem isn't the vaxed or the unvaxed, its the politicians ruining science and medicine for their own objectives and their suspension of the free thinking process of discovery through the scientific method.  That's our common enemy - ignorance generated by politicians.

 

I said previously in this thread that India has pulled Ivermectin from its list of drugs used for Covid because it is not effective.  But here again you bring it up because you read it somewhere.

 

The scientific method is being used here and it favors the use of vaccines because the data is unmistakable.  And if the restrictions do not go away once this virus is under control, I’ll stand with you in opposition.  Until then, stop refusing to see what science tells you because you want to turn everything into a political conspiracy.

 

https://www.indiatoday.in/

Edited October 10, 2021 by oldmanfan

[SoCal Deek]

And the rage continues day after day after day. Have any of you noticed that you’ve not changed a SINGLE opinion? Like most people on here I’ve been fully vaccinated for months. For goodness sake’s we do NOT have a vaccine problem. We have a messaging problem! And the people who claim to be in charge have done a flat out horrible job of adapting the message. It’s time to get to fricking work Joe! It’s not as easy it looks sitting on some worthless Senate committee for decades on end questioning and overseeing other people. You’re in the big chair now Joe! You’re the one actually responsible for shaping AND delivering the message….and you clearly suck at it!

Edited October 10, 2021 by SoCal Deek