Fairburn would swap Allen for Mahomes. Would you?

[NewEra]

13 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Who's arguing that Allen is better? Some of us are arguing Allen will be better, but I haven't seen a single person say that at this moment Allen is better.

I didn’t say anyone in this thread has stated allen is better....i said that anyone who is saying allen is better is a homer and not living in reality.  I didn’t mean in this thread....it was more of a general statement.  My bad, I should’ve made that more clear.  

 

Over the past few allen/Mahomes threads......there have been posters who have said that Allen is better.  They know who they are and I don’t want to get into a back and forth about this.  If you believe that everyone on this board believes Mahomes is better, you’re entitled to that opinion.  I’m not going to dig through hundreds of pages to prove a point.  I know what I’ve read over the last few months and I’ll be ok if you don’t believe me. 
 

 

14 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Now you're being disingenuous. You made the initial accusation, not me. Most people watching that game saw Allen running for his life as an entirely and pretty seriously injured WR corps struggled to get open against a physical secondary.

 

So, you made the claim... where are all these plays?

And I answered...I don’t have time to watch the game.  As I’ve stated, I could care less if you believe me.  You don’t think there were several plays that Josh didn’t take the open check down?  That’s on you.  You’re thinking is incorrect. 

[NewEra]

15 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I thought end of 2019 Allen was actually very good, and the offense's mediocrity was much more on his supporting cast than Allen himself. The step he took from 2019 to 2020 was magnified by the addition of a true #1 WR. Everyone talks about his dumb lateral in the Houston wildcard game. We were only in that game to begin with because of Allen's play. There isn't a QB in the league that could be successful with John Brown and Duke Williams as their top 2 WRs.

you’re entitled to your opinion.  I won’t try and change it.....but the fact is, Josh stated that he fixed his throwing motion in the offseason.  There are videos showing how his throwing motion changed from 19 to 20.  Sorry, I don’t have a link to the videos (nor the desire to prove my point), without  being called disingenuous.

 

Duke williams wasn’t a  top 2 target.  Beasley and brown were. Josh (and maybe Daboll) decided to make Duke our most targeted receiver in the biggest game of the year. 
 

 

[transplantbillsfan]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

And I answered...I don’t have time to watch the game.  As I’ve stated, I could care less if you believe me.  You don’t think there were several plays that Josh didn’t take the open check down?  That’s on you.  You’re thinking is incorrect. 

 

We didn't actually land on the Moon.

 

I don't have time to prove it.

 

You don't believe me? That's on you.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

you’re entitled to your opinion.  I won’t try and change it.....but the fact is, Josh stated that he fixed his throwing motion in the offseason.  There are videos showing how his throwing motion changed from 19 to 20.  Sorry, I don’t have a link to the videos (nor the desire to prove my point), without  being called disingenuous.

 

Duke williams wasn’t a  top 2 target.  Beasley and brown were. Josh (and maybe Daboll) decided to make Duke our most targeted receiver in the biggest game of the year. 
 

 

 

Yeah Allen did improve from year 2 to year 3, but he was still quite good at the end of year 2. The larger difference is he had a legitimate #1 WR to throw the ball to and better depth at the position as well. I know I'm mostly alone in this opinion on this board, but I believe the addition of Diggs was more important to that jump than Allen himself, and I don't mean that as a slight against Allen at all.

 

If you happen to have 2 hours to spare at some point, I highly recommend this 2-part video breakdown of Allen's play in late 2019 and 2020 from a non-Bills fan:

 

Part 1: 

 

 

Part 2: 

 

I watched these videos a while ago and I really like how this guy breaks down the position. He talks about things I don't see other analysts talk about - things like depth of target and sight lines and surrounding talent and being able to throw accurately without "perfect" mechanics and understanding leverage on the field.

 

His overall point being that context matters a lot. Allen had 2 years throwing to mediocre talent at best, and the first year he had a legitimate top end talent to throw to he suddenly has a breakout season. That isn't just coincidence and it isn't just because Allen himself improved. NFL offenses have 11 players on the field and it's ridiculous to say the other 10 players can't be factored into these conversations.

 

EDIT: A quick word of warning on the videos, the first 30 minutes or so of part 1 is just the guy talking with no video breakdown, but a lot of what he says is really interesting so I still recommend listening to it all if you have the time.

Edited May 29, 2021 by HappyDays

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

you’re entitled to your opinion.  I won’t try and change it.....but the fact is, Josh stated that he fixed his throwing motion in the offseason.  There are videos showing how his throwing motion changed from 19 to 20.  Sorry, I don’t have a link to the videos (nor the desire to prove my point), without  being called disingenuous.

 

Duke williams wasn’t a  top 2 target.  Beasley and brown were. Josh (and maybe Daboll) decided to make Duke our most targeted receiver in the biggest game of the year. 
 

 

Transplant was quite literally the Pope of the Church of Tyrod. You have a better chance convincing him the sky is green when he locks in on a QB.

[NewEra]

8 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

We didn't actually land on the Moon.

 

I don't have time to prove it.

 

You don't believe me? That's on you.

Every time I make a statement, I don’t feel the need to spend hours of my time (which is LITERALLY what you asked me to do) in order prove it to another poster.  Sorry, not sorry. If you don’t believe me, I’ll sleep just fine. 

[NewEra]

9 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah Allen did improve from year 2 to year 3, but he was still quite good at the end of year 2. The larger difference is he had a legitimate #1 WR to throw the ball to and better depth at the position as well. I know I'm mostly alone in this opinion on this board, but I believe the addition of Diggs was more important to that jump than Allen himself, and I don't mean that as a slight against Allen at all.

 

If you happen to have 2 hours to spare at some point, I highly recommend this 2-part video breakdown of Allen's play in late 2019 and 2020 from a non-Bills fan:

 

Part 1: 

 

 

Part 2: 

 

I watched these videos a while ago and I really like how this guy breaks down the position. He talks about things I don't see other analysts talk about - things like depth of target and sight lines and surrounding talent and being able to throw accurately without "perfect" mechanics.

 

His overall point being that context matters a lot. Allen had 2 years throwing to mediocre talent at best, and the first year he had a legitimate top end talent to throw to he suddenly has a breakout season. That isn't just coincidence and it isn't just because Allen himself improved. NFL offenses have 11 players on the field and it's ridiculous to say the other 10 players can't be factored into these conversations.

 

EDIT: A quick word of warning on the videos, the first 30 minutes or so of part 1 is just the guy talking with no video breakdown, but a lot of what he says is really interesting so I still recommend listening to it all if you have the time.

Good post.  I watched both videos awhile back as well.  I also watched another video (months ago) in which the creator broke down his mechanics from 19 to 20 and the difference was noticeable.  
 

Diggs (and Gabe) made a huge impact on his improvement, no question.  His improvement as a thrower, imo, was the biggest difference.  His accuracy along the sideline was pinpoint all season.  Almost every throw he made to the oob marks were perfectly placed.  His ball placement and touch was much better in 20 than 19.  
 

I just see things differently with regards to Josh as a passer.  agree to disagree. 

[Shaw66]

5 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

 

Haha. Good point. What luck. It's like we could have had Jordan but hey it's okay we drafted Lebron the next year.

Now we're REALLY getting ahead of ourselves!  But in fact, that is the kind of greatness I think Mahomes and Allen can achieve.  

[GETTOTHE50]

 

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Now you're being disingenuous. You made the initial accusation, not me. Most people watching that game saw Allen running for his life as an entirely and pretty seriously injured WR corps struggled to get open against a physical secondary.

 

So, you made the claim... where are all these plays?

 

There were plays with open receivers. But Josh absolutely was running for his life. I still maintain we lost that game in the trenches.

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

Transplant was quite literally the Pope of the Church of Tyrod. You have a better chance convincing him the sky is green when he locks in on a QB.

 

This.

[NewEra]

8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

There were plays with open receivers. But Josh absolutely was running for his life. I still maintain we lost that game in the trenches.

 

This.

Oh I agree 💯.  Josh didn’t lose the game by not taking what was given, but he did miss more than a handful of open guys short because he wanted to take bigger shots.  He wasn’t taking what they were giving him.  When teams blitz, guys are open.  KC was blitzing and even when they only brought 4, they confused and manhandled our entire operation 
 

We were completely wrecked up front. We’re also not sure if the crowd may have had an impact on Josh getting the OL Into the correct checks. We hadn’t been whooped up front like that (especially in pass pro) all year.  

[HappyDays]

34 minutes ago, NewEra said:

We hadn’t been whooped up front like that (especially in pass pro) all year.  

 

It was the same against the Chiefs in the first matchup too. For some reason they were our offensive line's kryptonite last year. The Steelers and Colts also killed us in the 1st half of each of those matchups, the difference is our defense held them back long enough for our offense to figure it out. Against the Chiefs both times by the time we figured it out it was too late because they had run up the score and we couldn't slow them down. When we face them this year Daboll and Allen need to have a plan against the pass rush from the start, and the defense can't let them start scoring at will.

[Mat68]

7 hours ago, NewEra said:

Yeah........maybe. Maybe not.  Maybe.  Maybe not.  Maybe, maybe not.  That’s what this thread has turned into.  I prefer to talk about what we know.....as opposed to saying maybe.....maybe not

Ok Allen #2 in MVP Mahomes #3 case closed?

[NewEra]

38 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

Ok Allen #2 in MVP Mahomes #3 case closed?

What case?  What is your point?  That allen is better than Mahomes?

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

8 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

I've heard Greg Cossell in more than one interview call Josh Allen the most talented QB in the NFL, 2021 draft picks like Lawrence included.

 

 

Yep. I heard that same segment.

[Mat68]

18 minutes ago, NewEra said:

What case?  What is your point?  That allen is better than Mahomes?

Any one who picks Allen over Mahomes is a homer.... I talked about thier situations.  Ifs and buts..  yadda yadda...  the trending of Allens career can suggest he is player you want in 21.  Third party voters had Allen as more valuable last year over Mahomes.  Yet Bills fans are stupid in believing in it?  I guess Mafia members had a heavy hand in the MVP vote than.  Allen made himself a top 5 qb against heavy resistance among the national media.  Finaly having a guy im taking that over anyone.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

5 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Now we're REALLY getting ahead of ourselves!  But in fact, that is the kind of greatness I think Mahomes and Allen can achieve.  

 

Not to mention as great as both can be it's unlikely either ever eclipse Brady. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

9 hours ago, NewEra said:

Josh wasn’t the same QB in 18-19.  He just wasn’t.  He wasn’t as accurate.  He was the worst deep ball thrower in the nfl in 2019.  The worst.  He got with Palmer, hooked himself up to machine, found out what the problems were and he fixed them.  He changes his arm angle dramatically. 
 

you can think w/e you want, but 2019 JA was not THAT good.  MVP AND SB MVP?  I won’t say he wouldn’t have, because, again, it’s make believe we’re talking about, but I don’t think he was the same QB.  His improvement wasn’t just a result of adding Diggs.  He put in the work and made himself better

 

 Mahomes won the super bowl in his third season. Josh's third season was 2020. I agree Josh was not the same QB in 18-19. But he was on the same level as Mahomes in his third year which was the year Mahomes won the super bowl. That's way I say yes, I could imagine Allen winning the Super Bowl and MVP in his third season if the roles were reversed. 

[NewEra]

36 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

Any one who picks Allen over Mahomes is a homer.... I talked about thier situations.  Ifs and buts..  yadda yadda...  the trending of Allens career can suggest he is player you want in 21.  Third party voters had Allen as more valuable last year over Mahomes.  Yet Bills fans are stupid in believing in it?  I guess Mafia members had a heavy hand in the MVP vote than.  Allen made himself a top 5 qb against heavy resistance among the national media.  Finaly having a guy im taking that over anyone.

I picked allen over Mahomes......

 

I’d just like to know what case is closed with allen being 2nd in MVP and Mahomes 3rd?  

[NewEra]

11 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

At first glance I would agree. But when thinking about it I do see a legit path where Allen does win an MVP and Super Bowl within his first two years starting with the Chiefs as Mahomes did. Mahomes won his Super Bowl in his 3rd year. Allen's 3rd year was his breakout season. Talent wise we know the skill level would have been there for Allen. So then the question is how is the rest of the team around him? Assuming all is the same it seems more likely than not that Allen and the Chiefs would be strong candidates for a Super Bowl run.

 

37 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

 Mahomes won the super bowl in his third season. Josh's third season was 2020. I agree Josh was not the same QB in 18-19. But he was on the same level as Mahomes in his third year which was the year Mahomes won the super bowl. That's way I say yes, I could imagine Allen winning the Super Bowl and MVP in his third season if the roles were reversed. 

Gotcha.  I saw what you were saying as Allen could’ve won MVP, SB and SB mvp by the end of his 2nd year.....which would’ve been 2019. 
 

I’m now assuming that you’re saying he could’ve won them after the 2020 season, if allen redshirted year 1 and his 2nd year as a starter would’ve been 2020.  
 

He was good enough in 2020 to win MVP in 2020....but if he was the QB behind KCs OL, playing Tampa, he wouldn’t have stood a chance to win SB and Sb mvp.  Not to mention that I don’t think he was good enough in 2019 to beat that niner D

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

44 minutes ago, NewEra said:

He was good enough in 2020 to win MVP in 2020....but if he was the QB behind KCs OL, playing Tampa, he wouldn’t have stood a chance to win SB and Sb mvp.  Not to mention that I don’t think he was good enough in 2019 to beat that niner D

 

Most likely true. He would have needed Mahomes 2019 line against the Bucs just as Mahomes needed that line.  Even then though didn't appear the Chiefs had an answer for Gronk and Fournette. 

 

As for the 49ers. That was Mahomes 3rd year. 3rd year Allen was definitely good enough to hang with that 2019 49ers team. 

[transplantbillsfan]

11 hours ago, FireChans said:

Transplant was quite literally the Pope of the Church of Tyrod. You have a better chance convincing him the sky is green when he locks in on a QB.

 

Ya know... this might be an argument if there weren't so many other "more" reasonable posters making the same arguments I am.

 

But they are, so your ad hominem attack fails and makes it pretty clear you're desperate at this point... that's just too bad...

11 hours ago, NewEra said:

Every time I make a statement, I don’t feel the need to spend hours of my time (which is LITERALLY what you asked me to do) in order prove it to another poster.  Sorry, not sorry. If you don’t believe me, I’ll sleep just fine. 

 

That's fine. I don’t believe you.

[transplantbillsfan]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

There were plays with open receivers. But Josh absolutely was running for his life. I still maintain we lost that game in the trenches.

 

Well... this I agree with. This is also very, very different from what @NewEra stated.

[FireChans]

4 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Ya know... this might be an argument if there weren't so many other "more" reasonable posters making the same arguments I am.

 

But they are, so your ad hominem attack fails and makes it pretty clear you're desperate at this point... that's just too bad...

 

That's fine. I don’t believe you.

Even the church had folks other than you to man the walls.

[Shaw66]

12 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Not to mention as great as both can be it's unlikely either ever eclipse Brady. 

I don't agree with this.  It's possible, it's actually probable, that neither will win as many Super Bowls as Brady, but Super Bowls aren't the best measure of excellence in quarterbacking.  

 

Stats aren't, either, but Brady's career stats don't make him the career GOAT.   He's now piling up numbers because of longevity, but that doesn't make him the GOAT.  His stats are similar to Peyton's and Brees's.   

 

In terms of overall quarterbacking, including stats, on-field leadership, reading defenses and adjusting, etc., etc., Brady hasn't gotten substantially better in the last 10 years.   He's just had sustained excellence.   But he wasn't any better at those things in his prime than Peyton was.   No one was declaring, without an argument, that Brady was the GOAT when he was going to head-to-head with Peyton all those years.  

 

The point is, the only thing that makes Brady stand out from a few other guys is the Super Bowl rings, and in a serious discussion, I'm not willing to call him the GOAT just because he happened to play for the greatest head coach of all time.   For example, make Peyton the Pats' QB over the same time, at the same age that Brady was over those years, and I would bet that Peyton would have won as many rings, maybe more.   Brady was outstanding in some of those Super Bowl runs, late-game heroics and all, but Peyton was every bit as good.  In two fewer seasons, Peyton had six more game-winning drives.  

 

So, given that it's easier to pile up passing stats now than 20 years ago, I wouldn't say that Mahomes and/or Allen can't pass Brady in many, even all, the important passing stats.  I wouldn't say that neither will surpass Brady in game-winning drives (by the way, Mahomes has 7, Allen has 11).   Super Bowl rings seems unlikely, of course, but if Reid coaches for 15 more years, or if McDermott rises to Belichick-like excellence, even six rings is possible for either of them.  I'm not willing to say, for example, that one of them couldn't have a run of three Super Bowl wins in a five- or six-year stretch.   

 

As I've said and it seems, most people agree, Mahomes and Allen stand alone as the only guys anyone is willing to declare today as truly exceptional quarterbacking talents.   Yes, in a year or two or three we might be talking about Herbert, Burrow, Lawrence, or someone else in those terms, but right now those guys are still in the speculation category.   Mahomes and Allen already have done enough on the field to make pretty much everyone who's watching and thinking agree that 15 more years of that kind of excellence will make them both first ballot Hall of Famers and could put them in the GOAT discussion.  

 

Again, we're way ahead of ourselves, but it's fun to dream about it. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

5 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't agree with this.  It's possible, it's actually probable, that neither will win as many Super Bowls as Brady, but Super Bowls aren't the best measure of excellence in quarterbacking.  

 

Stats aren't, either, but Brady's career stats don't make him the career GOAT.   He's now piling up numbers because of longevity, but that doesn't make him the GOAT.  His stats are similar to Peyton's and Brees's.   

 

 

I don't know. Brady has the total package going right now. Rings, conference championships, stats, longevity, efficiency etc. He'll be hard to beat. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

18 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

In terms of overall quarterbacking, including stats, on-field leadership, reading defenses and adjusting, etc., etc., Brady hasn't gotten substantially better in the last 10 years.   He's just had sustained excellence.   But he wasn't any better at those things in his prime than Peyton was.   No one was declaring, without an argument, that Brady was the GOAT when he was going to head-to-head with Peyton all those years.  

 

 

I agree. Which is why earlier in the thread i compared Mahomes vs. Allen to Brady vs. Peyton as evidence that the head to head match up does not mean Mahomes is better than Allen. Early in both their careers Peyton was the better QB despite the losses to New England. But that was early in their careers. Brady has since easily eclipsed Peyton not just on longevity but by also proving that his highs can be just as high as Peyton's. Brady has three season of +110 passer ratings to only 2 for Peyton.

 

10 years ago Brady was a 33 year old QB in his prime. He hasn't gotten better but he also hasn't gotten much worse. And he was already playing at Peyton's level at age 33 so it's  not like he needed to get better.

18 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

The point is, the only thing that makes Brady stand out from a few other guys is the Super Bowl rings, and in a serious discussion, I'm not willing to call him the GOAT just because he happened to play for the greatest head coach of all time. 

His longevity also stands out. He even outlasted Drew Brees by at least 3 years and counting. What's the saying? Availability is the best ability? No QB has been more available than Brady as his career continues to tick on and he plays at a high level.

Edited May 30, 2021 by Sammy Watkins' Rib

[NewEra]

11 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Most likely true. He would have needed Mahomes 2019 line against the Bucs just as Mahomes needed that line.  Even then though didn't appear the Chiefs had an answer for Gronk and Fournette. 

 

As for the 49ers. That was Mahomes 3rd year. 3rd year Allen was definitely good enough to hang with that 2019 49ers team. 

Yeah....except, 2019 Josh was in his second year.  Make believe is fun, especially when we transport teams into the future.  It would’ve been 💯 impossible for 2020 Josh to play the 2019 niners team in the super bowl.  This is too much for me. I’m out

8 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Ya know... this might be an argument if there weren't so many other "more" reasonable posters making the same arguments I am.

 

But they are, so your ad hominem attack fails and makes it pretty clear you're desperate at this point... that's just too bad...

 

That's fine. I don’t believe you.

Cool.  Watch the game in all 22 and educate yourself on the matter like I did

[FireChans]

20 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't agree with this.  It's possible, it's actually probable, that neither will win as many Super Bowls as Brady, but Super Bowls aren't the best measure of excellence in quarterbacking.  

 

Stats aren't, either, but Brady's career stats don't make him the career GOAT.   He's now piling up numbers because of longevity, but that doesn't make him the GOAT.  His stats are similar to Peyton's and Brees's.   

 

In terms of overall quarterbacking, including stats, on-field leadership, reading defenses and adjusting, etc., etc., Brady hasn't gotten substantially better in the last 10 years.   He's just had sustained excellence.   But he wasn't any better at those things in his prime than Peyton was.   No one was declaring, without an argument, that Brady was the GOAT when he was going to head-to-head with Peyton all those years.  

 

The point is, the only thing that makes Brady stand out from a few other guys is the Super Bowl rings, and in a serious discussion, I'm not willing to call him the GOAT just because he happened to play for the greatest head coach of all time.   For example, make Peyton the Pats' QB over the same time, at the same age that Brady was over those years, and I would bet that Peyton would have won as many rings, maybe more.   Brady was outstanding in some of those Super Bowl runs, late-game heroics and all, but Peyton was every bit as good.  In two fewer seasons, Peyton had six more game-winning drives.  

 

So, given that it's easier to pile up passing stats now than 20 years ago, I wouldn't say that Mahomes and/or Allen can't pass Brady in many, even all, the important passing stats.  I wouldn't say that neither will surpass Brady in game-winning drives (by the way, Mahomes has 7, Allen has 11).   Super Bowl rings seems unlikely, of course, but if Reid coaches for 15 more years, or if McDermott rises to Belichick-like excellence, even six rings is possible for either of them.  I'm not willing to say, for example, that one of them couldn't have a run of three Super Bowl wins in a five- or six-year stretch.   

 

As I've said and it seems, most people agree, Mahomes and Allen stand alone as the only guys anyone is willing to declare today as truly exceptional quarterbacking talents.   Yes, in a year or two or three we might be talking about Herbert, Burrow, Lawrence, or someone else in those terms, but right now those guys are still in the speculation category.   Mahomes and Allen already have done enough on the field to make pretty much everyone who's watching and thinking agree that 15 more years of that kind of excellence will make them both first ballot Hall of Famers and could put them in the GOAT discussion.  

 

Again, we're way ahead of ourselves, but it's fun to dream about it. 

Not willing to call Brady the GOAT at this point puts your every single football take into question. 
 

@transplantbillsfan is this your boy!!

[Shaw66]

10 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

I agree. Which is why earlier in the thread i compared Mahomes vs. Allen to Brady vs. Peyton as evidence that the head to head match up does not mean Mahomes is better than Allen. Early in both their careers Peyton was the better QB despite the losses to New England. But that was early in their careers. Brady has since easily eclipsed Peyton not just on longevity but by also proving that his highs can be just as high as Peyton's. Brady has three season of +110 passer ratings to only 2 for Peyton.

 

10 years ago Brady was a 33 year old QB in his prime. He hasn't gotten better but he also hasn't gotten much worse. And he was already playing at Peyton's level at age 33 so it's  not like he needed to get better.

His longevity also stands out. He even outlasted Drew Brees by at least 3 years and counting. What's the saying? Availability is the best ability? No QB has been more available than Brady as his career continues to tick on and he plays at a high level.

Thanks.   This is good.  

 

And I agree, Brady's longevity does mean something, but it's not how I think of the GOAT.   Brady's longevity makes him the most remarkable QB of all time, because he has played at the highest level for an unusually long time, but I think the GOAT should be determined simply in terms of who was the best at the position for a sustained period.   And that's why I think Mahomes or Allen could become the GOAT.   I think there's a really good chance that one or both of them will put up stats that will pass Brady, and one or even both could have substantial post-season success, like, say, four rings.   If that happens, then in my mind the guy who does that is the GOAT over Brady, because there is absolutely no question that both Allen and Mahomes already are better than Brady in terms of pure play-making.   Brady never could scramble like either one of the, never could have the running success that either has had.  Brady doesn't have an arm that can compare with either of them.   

[NewEra]

15 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Not willing to call Brady the GOAT at this point puts your every single football take into question. 
 

@transplantbillsfan is this your boy!!

Ehhhh.  I disagree with his take,  but his opinion on the matter certainly does not put every single football take into question.

I’ve read and agreed with several of his takes over the years.  

He has a different thought process and it’s one that I agree with to a certain extent.  When people ask me who the greatest RB is, I say Adrian Peterson in his prime is the best RB I’ve ever seen, after having watched football extensively since 1980.  I don’t expect people to agree with me that he’s the best.....but to my eye, at his best, he was the best imo.  
 

Watching what Rodgers, Mahomes and Allen can do hrowing the ball, it’s clear to me that they have much more athletic ability and arm talent than Brady has ever had, giving them a much higher ceiling. Manning was a better pure passer.  Marino was a better pure passer. But Brady is the unquestioned GOAT because of the way he prepares, leads coupled with his will to win.  Accomplishments matter when discussing the greatest and no one has accomplished what Brady has.  Yet

[Shaw66]

9 minutes ago, NewEra said:

 Yet

Exactly.  

[NewEra]

7 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Exactly.  

But he’s clearly the GOAT as of now.

[billsfan1959]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

Not willing to call Brady the GOAT at this point puts your every single football take into question. 

 

Not really. It is difficult to compare QBs across eras as the game has evolved so much. Even when comparing those within the same era, they can be evaluated differently depending upon the criteria one chooses in defining what constitutes a great QB. To say there is no valid argument for any QB, other than Brady, as the greatest of all time is just silly.

Edited May 30, 2021 by billsfan1959

[Shaw66]

23 minutes ago, NewEra said:

But he’s clearly the GOAT as of now.

Of course.  No question.  

 

In my mind, Peyton is the only other guy in the conversation, because Peyton if the only guy other than Brady who was so good he became a true coach on the field.   Ariens admits that by late last season they started letting Brady be an active participant in game planning and play calling.   After the season, Ariens said something, and Belichick actually agreed in some way, that it was amazing that Brady's first team didn't let him have more responsibility.  

 

The same thing happened with Peyton in his first season in Denver.   They began to let Peyton install plays that hadn't been part of Denver's offense, simply because Peyton wanted them and knew they would work.  

 

Sure, Bart Starr and Otto Graham probably contributed in those ways, but that was in an era when the offenses and defenses were much less complicated.   Quarterbacking is advanced way beyond that level now.   

 

Anyone who wants to be in the GQBOAT discussion now has to become that kind of player.   Mahomes and Allen have a long way to go.  

[Nextmanup]

Yes, in a heartbeat.

So would any intelligent, objective football analyst.

 

Gotta love Bills fans---75% say keep Josh!

 

 

On 5/23/2021 at 3:57 PM, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

two different breeds of QB.

 

JA fits buffalo perfectly.

 

I'll pass on mahomes.

 

 

 

never really understood what they get out of these hypotheticals other then, to just pass time?

The only "breed" that matters is skill and quality.

 

The rest is just BS.

 

Mahomes wins the contest.

 

 

[billsfan1959]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Of course.  No question.  

 

In my mind, Peyton is the only other guy in the conversation, because Peyton if the only guy other than Brady who was so good he became a true coach on the field.   Ariens admits that by late last season they started letting Brady be an active participant in game planning and play calling.   After the season, Ariens said something, and Belichick actually agreed in some way, that it was amazing that Brady's first team didn't let him have more responsibility.  

 

The same thing happened with Peyton in his first season in Denver.   They began to let Peyton install plays that hadn't been part of Denver's offense, simply because Peyton wanted them and knew they would work.  

 

Sure, Bart Starr and Otto Graham probably contributed in those ways, but that was in an era when the offenses and defenses were much less complicated.   Quarterbacking is advanced way beyond that level now.   

 

Anyone who wants to be in the GQBOAT discussion now has to become that kind of player.   Mahomes and Allen have a long way to go.  

 

Agree with Peyton and I think Joe Montana is in that conversation as well. As far as QBs from past eras playing in less complicated schemes - it doesn't mean they wouldn't have been just as good or even better playing in the modern era. We will never know, that is part of what makes those arguments so much fun.

 

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

Not really. It is difficult to compare QBs across eras as the game has evolved so much. Even when comparing those within the same era, they be evaluated differently depending upon the criteria one chooses in defining what constitutes a great QB. To say there is no valid argument for any QB, other than Brady, as the greatest of all time is just silly.

Actually, I don't agree.   I think that's a valid argument in baseball, because the game is fundamentally unchanged.   It's still a pitcher throwing the ball and a batter trying to hit.   On the other hand, football, and to a lesser extent basketball, keep evolving, and the game keeps asking players to do more and more.   I mentioned Bart Starr and Otto Graham.   There's no question in my mind that Peyton, Brady, Mahomes, and Allen could outplay either of them, if you transported them back to those earlier eras.   For a modern QB, reading those defenses would be like reading Dick, Jane, and Sally.   Could Otto Graham do what Brady does?   Well, I suppose, maybe, but there's absolutely no way to know.  Just because Otto Graham was smart doesn't mean we can assume it and declare him to be in the GOAT discussion.   Graham was the greatest of his era, no doubt, but because he never did on the field the kinds of things Peyton and Brady did, he isn't in the GOAT discussion.   

 

Just my opinion.

 

 

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

Agree with Peyton and I think Joe Montana is in that conversation as well. As far as QBs from past eras playing in less complicated schemes - it doesn't mean they wouldn't have been just as good or even better playing in the modern era. We will never know, that is part of what makes those arguments so much fun.

 

Montana!    There's a great suggestion.   Even he played in the relative dark ages, but his era was the beginning of modern football.   The west coast offense was the beginning.   So, yeah, if we're drinking beers and arguing the GOAT, I'd listen to arguments about Montana.  

[billsfan1959]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

Actually, I don't agree.   I think that's a valid argument in baseball, because the game is fundamentally unchanged.   It's still a pitcher throwing the ball and a batter trying to hit.   On the other hand, football, and to a lesser extent basketball, keep evolving, and the game keeps asking players to do more and more.   I mentioned Bart Starr and Otto Graham.   There's no question in my mind that Peyton, Brady, Mahomes, and Allen could outplay either of them, if you transported them back to those earlier eras.   For a modern QB, reading those defenses would be like reading Dick, Jane, and Sally.   Could Otto Graham do what Brady does?   Well, I suppose, maybe, but there's absolutely no way to know.  Just because Otto Graham was smart doesn't mean we can assume it and declare him to be in the GOAT discussion.   Graham was the greatest of his era, no doubt, but because he never did on the field the kinds of things Peyton and Brady did, he isn't in the GOAT discussion.   

 

Just my opinion.

 

Certainly they could based soley on the life experiences of all of them in playing football in the eras in which they played. However, IMO, there is no way anyone could say with any degree of certainty that a QB of a past era, if raised in the modern era, couldn't be as good as as a Brady or a Manning.