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Nihilarian

Reason the Dolphins fired their OC

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10 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

No it’s really not. Results matter, and to through 2 years the results haven’t really been there. 

The results have not been great but look at the talent on offense.   Peterman at QB, Allen playing as a rookie.   The 2018 OL was terrible. The WR corps was so lean that some people think Duke Williams is an NFL starter. 
 

Now in 2020 we finally have a stable and solid OL, quality WRs, good potential at TE, and a young and dynamic 1-2 punch at RB.  Allen going into year 3 with the same system, same OC, is a good thing.  

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Bailey will get a lot of Fitz, and he is good at knowing the aptitude’s of his players and catering the team to those strengths, aka. Spiller.  They still have with all of their spending and draft picks holes on all three sides of the ball, so if Tua takes over in the second half of the year, they may be good, but not as good as us.

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7 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

Fitz had no problem... the rest of the offensive players might have had difficulty adapting to that scheme though. Probably why O'Shea is gone. 

 

Fitz, beside being a very intelligent guy, has been playing pro football for what....13 years?  He can grasp these complex plays.  Josh, not so much as this was really the first year the coaching staff committed to him as a starter.  I think Josh was drinking from a firehose, either by design or not.

4 hours ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

 

Possibly.  However, when your other ten players are performing 'Swan Lake' on the field, and you still run Gore straight up the middle, the complexity is blunted.

 

Playcalling was another problem...

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13 hours ago, Warcodered said:

A very complicated playbook could be very rough for them this year shortened offseason an all the new starters they've got.

plus learning without someone whispering in the quarterbacks ear make it even more difficult 🙂

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4 hours ago, eball said:

 

 

 

 

 

Wow, SOMEBODY couldn’t wait to get in here and trash our OC!

 

The mediocre offense couldn’t POSSIBLY be a by-product of developing a raw QB for two seasons, could it?  Nah...Daboll sucks and McD doesn’t know offense!

 

You’re consistent, I’ll give you that.


Dennison and Daboll aren’t looking good for McD’s credibility for picking OCs.  
 

I don’t think anyone would question McD’s ability to have a good defense. It’s the offense that gives a lot of people cause for concern. 

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14 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

https://sports.yahoo.com/dolphins-chad-oshea-fired-patriots-offense-too-complex-young-players-nfl-024041937.html

 

According to a report from the Miami Herald, O’Shea was let go by the Dolphins after friction with teaching the Dolphins’ young roster a playbook with the complexities typically seen in Foxborough. Multiple players reportedly supported the decision to swap out O’Shea for veteran coordinator Chan Gailey.

From the Herald:

 

One player described the situation on offense last season as a “[expletive] show,” noting O’Shea tried to teach an offense that was too complex for a young team and that teaching/instruction during film study was a “disaster.”

 

 

As one player noted, O’Shea tried to run plays that were used in New England, which was predictable because O’Shea had spent the previous 10 seasons there as wide receivers coach.

 

Additionally, a player reportedly said O’Shea made the situation worse by trying to install especially complicated elements of the Patriots offense used by Tom Brady and Patriots offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels.

 

So, Chan is back with Fitz now in Miami. 

It would be interesting to see if Miami has the lowest wonderlic score for offensive players.

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10 hours ago, TwistofFate said:

Im not sure why everyone thinks our offense is so complex, its really not.  Its actually the opposite.

Typically terminology and long play calls make an offense to be perceived to be more complex.  The longer play calls can give a team more freedom to change blocking assignments, formation, motions, alternate plays, and snap count while essentially running the same concepts - and communicating all of that withing 10-15 seconds in the huddle.  It works for both run and pass.  Buffalo's offense does not appear to be complex to me, but perhaps there is simply more verbiage in the play calls.

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4 hours ago, eball said:

 

 

 

 

 

Wow, SOMEBODY couldn’t wait to get in here and trash our OC!

 

The mediocre offense couldn’t POSSIBLY be a by-product of developing a raw QB for two seasons, could it?  Nah...Daboll sucks and McD doesn’t know offense!

 

You’re consistent, I’ll give you that.

Probably a combination of both lacking talent and questionable OC/complex offensive system.

 

Until the results are there I think it’s completely fair to question McDs judgement on offense. Sorry if this angers you. 

2 hours ago, Bob in STL said:

The results have not been great but look at the talent on offense.   Peterman at QB, Allen playing as a rookie.   The 2018 OL was terrible. The WR corps was so lean that some people think Duke Williams is an NFL starter. 
 

Now in 2020 we finally have a stable and solid OL, quality WRs, good potential at TE, and a young and dynamic 1-2 punch at RB.  Allen going into year 3 with the same system, same OC, is a good thing.  

I’ve criticized the lack of offensive talent plenty and don’t disagree Allen in year 3 in the same system is a good thing. 

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13 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

This might be us in a year...

Or we may continue to improve as the players over time get more comfortable with a winning type offense. 

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13 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

That was my thought - we suffer from the same problem here.

 

 

Don't know how they draft players in Miami, but one of the main things they look for here is that they've got to be football smart. This is part of the reason why.

 

The reason it works for the Pats is mainly two-fold, they also get football-smart guys and the culture supports the young guys having to work their asses off to get it. If the culture doesn't support it, they'll complain and cause problems. They don't in NE or here.

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While Daboll certainly is from the Patriots coaching tree, by way of Alabama, I think Buffalo is past the stage where this is a critical issue.  While Josh Allen came into the league as a very raw QB, he's also very smart.  Beane and McDermott also value intelligence in their team building approach.  Every interview I heard this year from a new player, whether drafted or free agent revealed someone who at least appeared to be bright and articulate.  I believe that is by design as the defense is also pretty complex.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Truth is Daboll has sucked everywhere he’s gone in the NFL as an OC.... fans have a legitimate gripe to question the hire and the results to this point.

 

 

Except here. And as has been pointed out a billion times before, he's been in horrible situations in his previous NFL OC positions. Terrible QBs and front offices that were sinking ships.

 

There's a reason that around the league Daboll is seen as an up-and-comer, and that he got interviews in the off-season. He's widely considered to be doing a fine job here. Yes, a few fans here complain, but that's nearly always true.

 

 

13 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

No it’s really not. Results matter, and to through 2 years the results haven’t really been there. 

 

 

Yes, it really is.

 

Results matter, but so does context. And the context here is that he's been here through a rebuild, and that particularly in his first year this regime was putting almost no resources into the offense outside of Allen himself. And he was supposed to get a year off.

 

Again, he's gotten a head coaching interview and the Bills denied the Giants the chance to interview him for OC. You don't think he's doing a good job. Fine. Most of the NFL does, though.

Edited by Thurman#1

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Except here. And as has been pointed out a billion times before, he's been in horrible situations in his previous NFL OC positions. Terrible QBs and front offices that were sinking ships.

 

There's a reason that around the league Daboll is seen as an up-and-comer, and that he got interviews in the off-season. He's widely considered to be doing a fine job here. Yes, a few fans here complain, but that's nearly always true.

 

 

Yes, it really is.

24th in YPG, 23rd in PPG in 2019.


 30th in YPG, and 30th in PPG in 2018.

 

Theres a reason fans alike question Daboll as an OC. This year will be his last as the Bills OC if a significant jump in offensive production isn’t seen.

Edited by ScottLaw

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Except here. And as has been pointed out a billion times before, he's been in horrible situations in his previous NFL OC positions. Terrible QBs and front offices that were sinking ships.

 

There's a reason that around the league Daboll is seen as an up-and-comer, and that he got interviews in the off-season. He's widely considered to be doing a fine job here. Yes, a few fans here complain, but that's nearly always true.

 

He got one interview.
 

And widely considered to be doing a fine job by who exactly? 
 

Quote

 

Yes, it really is.

 

Results matter, but so does context. And the context here is that he's been here through a rebuild, and that particularly in his first year this regime was putting almost no resources into the offense outside of Allen himself. And he was supposed to get a year off.

 

Again, he's gotten a head coaching interview and the Bills denied the Giants the chance to interview him for OC. You don't think he's doing a good job. Fine. The NFL does, though.


Just like Allen, the excuses are going to be all but dried up after this season. Either we produce an offense in the top half of the league or it’s time to fire Daboll and look at bringing in another QB.

Edited by Bangarang

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14 hours ago, Happy said:

Doesn't Daboll have the same problem?  I recall John Brown mentioning that this offense is the most complex he has been in.  

 

Main complaint with Daboll is how he calls a game.  It lacks vision to me as evidenced in the WC game.  

 

That said, the offense is complex, which just seems like another coach who wants to run his system.  It's not like what Baltimore did with Lamar Jackson identifying a scheme that he could run at this point in his career.  

 

All of this is why I suspect Buffalo loaded up with UFA offensive types last year.  Of course the QB has to grasp the concepts, but the majority of their OL and top 2 WRs were guys with plenty of NFL experience and a RB who is the NFL's version of Methuselah (and I say this as a positive).  

 

Doesn't bode well if they're trying to involve younger players into the scheme.  

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Rebuild. Young developmental QB who is seriously improving but has a long way to go. Offensive roster that was a distant second priority in 2018.

 

There is indeed a reason that some fans question Daboll as OC. They mostly don't get it. They don't see that context matters. A lot. 

 

Does he still have something to prove? Sure. But there's a reason that he's getting those interviews.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

 

He got one interview.
 

And widely considered to be doing a fine job by who exactly? 
 


Just like Allen, the excuses are going to be all but dried up after this season. Either we produce an offense in the top half of the league or it’s time to fire Daboll and look at bringing in another QB.

 

 

OK, I guess there's nothing forcing you to count the interview the Giants asked for but were denied by the Bills. It still exists in reality, though. I'll try to remember to use "be offered interviews" rather than "get" them. As far as indicating what the league-wide opinion on you is, though, it's pretty much the same thing. And that he was offered those interviews when he's coaching a team so early in their life cycle, and an offense that's far more coming together or finding it's feet than already producing at a high level again shows the way that the league sees Daboll.

 

That's who. The consensus on him around the league is he's doing a good job, given what he's had.

 

The offense has to improve? Well, you're right, of course it does, but if they don't ... it is at this point far too early to know what the reason for that will be or whether Daboll will be considered to be a major part of the problem. It certainly could happen that way. Or - especially if Allen improves significantly - they could easily improve a ton and Daboll could be considered one of the main reasons.

Edited by Thurman#1

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, TwistofFate said:

Im not sure why everyone thinks our offense is so complex, its really not.  Its actually the opposite.

 

Ah, no.    Joe B of The Athlectic had a story this week about Gabriel Davis' ability to contribute to the Bills as a rookie.   After running just 3-4 routes in college at UCF, this is what he's going to have to learn as a Bill:

 

Screen-Shot-2020-05-20-at-9.12.36-AM.png

Edited by Lurker
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14 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Yes.... I’m sure it’s played a part in why our offense has been average at best his first two years here... and every year for him as an OC.

 

Never understood the complex offensive playbook strategy and never really trusted McDermott hiring an OC. Keep it simple stupid. 

 

 

If an offense is too simple, the defense will be to read & react correctly.  Not only does this slow down the offense, it frustrates the players.

 

An offense that's too complicated makes execution (and success) difficult and also frustrates the players.

 

Somewhere in the middle is a sweet spot.   

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

OK, I guess there's nothing forcing you to count the interview the Giants asked for but were denied by the Bills. It still exists in reality, though. I'll try to remember to use "be offered interviews" rather than "get" them. As far as indicating what the league-wide opinion on you is, though, it's pretty much the same thing. And that he was offered those interviews when he's coaching a team so early in their life cycle, and an offense that's far more coming together or finding it's feet than already producing at a high level again shows the way that the league sees Daboll.

 

That's who. The consensus on him around the league is he's doing a good job, given what he's had.

 

The offense has to improve? Well, you're right, of course it does, but if they don't ... it is at this point far too early to know what the reason for that will be or whether Daboll will be considered to be a major part of the problem. It certainly could happen that way. Or - especially if Allen improves significantly - they could easily improve a ton and Daboll could be considered one of the main reasons.

Giants interview makes sense.... Judge coached with a Daboll in NE.... basically the same thing as Flores hiring O’Shea.... interestingly enough the Dolphins offense wasn’t much worse than the Bills offense. 


You do understand this is a results oriented business? You don’t get 4 years to install an offense if your first 3 years demonstrate lackluster results. Daboll is absolutely on the hot seat. This is a make or break year for him here more so than it is Allen, IMO. 

 

Edited by ScottLaw
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