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Hapless Bills Fan

NFL testing helmet masks?

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8 minutes ago, Sherlock Holmes said:

Who do I listen to then if I'm incapable of understanding such complex matters and the experts aren't telling what to do and think correctly?!?!?!?! :cry:

 

Would you fix your foundation or trust a building inspector? Are you saying that infectious disease is something so simple that you and your Google skills are equal to years of education and research? Had we actually listened to these "Experts" years ago we would have shut down the wet markets as they were predicted (by these same experts you doubt have any expertise compared to your Google skills) this wouldn't have happened. 

Edited by billsfan89

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1 hour ago, LeGOATski said:

The problem is that testing is after-the-fact. One player tests positive, then they have to lock down the teams they played the past two weeks, plus the teams those teams played the following week.

 

That gets messy real quick.

It's just gonna be a play-at-your-own risk situation. If some players choose not to play, then that kind of puts a damper on the season.

 

New research is suggesting that the majority of people who are infected aren't contagious, and that small percentage of people are "super spreaders." 

 

I'm hoping we can develop a test to determine who is contagious. 
 

Scientists are saying that about 10% of infected people are responsible for 80% of infections. That there's a minority of people who give off 10 times more infectious particles when they breathe and talk than the majority of infected people, and that the majority of infected people don't infect anyone else. 

 

There's a measure of viral load emitted when you speak that can be measured, and that's perhaps what we should be testing. 

 

[Mod Edit: Hi, if you wish general discussion of covid and recent learnings, the OTW covid discussion thread and the PPP covid threads are at your service.

I would personally be very interested in the references to the above-stated new research if you cared to share it in one of the OTW threads, because all the research of which I'm aware indicates that all infected people, including those infected asymptomatically, can spread covid-19.  I haven't seen "scientists saying" 10% of infected people are responsible for 80% of infections - With the majority of infections it's my understanding we currently don't know how they were acquired!!!]

 

However, please try to keep discussion on TSW as football-relevant - Thanks!]

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giphy.gif

 

might as well go all out and just use the bubble. seems that is pretty much what many are doing through this deal, living in a bubble. I feel the only way to strengthen the immune system is to give a fight. those with the weak immune system whether due to age or illness, those should be protected. the rest of us, battle the virus, build up you immune system so you're prepared for the next wave. callous as it may sound and has been a fact through the ages, only the strong survive.

Edited by DaBillsFanSince1973
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2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Hi, if you wish general discussion of covid and recent learnings, the OTW covid discussion thread and the PPP covid threads are at your service.

I would personally be very interested in the references to the above-stated new research because all the research of which I'm aware indicates that all infected people, including those infected asymptomatically, can spread covid-19.

 

However, please try to keep discussion on TSW as football-relevant - Thanks!

 

 

What if they developed a football helmet that tests for expelled infectious particles? 

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1 hour ago, billsfan89 said:

 

I honestly don’t see how the NFL can play football and not risk player to player transmission. Given the high contact nature of the sport there just doesn’t seem to be anyway beyond consistent testing that you could do to limit the players exposure to the virus. I think you just have to let players assume the risk themselves and test them at every turn to avoid a huge spread.

 

I agree with you completely. 

As someone else said, it's a very violent sport.  Helmets get dislodged.  Spit, sweat, and blood get sprayed about.

I don't see how a barrier could be effective against all that.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

What if they developed a football helmet that tests for expelled infectious particles? 

 

Ha!  Well if there's a rapid test for infectious particles, and I were a player/coach, I would say it would be better to apply it BEFORE the helmets go on!

 

There's actually a face mask under development that can detect viral particles.  The catch is, right now it takes 2-3 hours for the face mask to detect them 😬

By that time, everyone has gone home from the game!  So I don't see it helping to play football this fall!

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32 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

might as well go all out and just use the bubble. seems that is pretty much what many are doing through this deal, living in a bubble. I feel the only way to strengthen the immune system is to give a fight. those with the weak immune system whether due to age or illness, those should be protected. the rest of us, battle the virus, build up you immune system so you're prepared for the next wave. callous as it may sound and has been a fact through the ages, only the strong survive.

 

The strongest immune system does not mean the physically strongest, and is not so easy to determine a priori.

 

Football relevance:

If you're a healthy player who is financially stable, do you want to wager the rest of your career on the bet that your immune system is a lean, mean, disease fighting machine vs. someone whose immune system is a paper tiger?  We can identify some risk factors, but there really isn't a diagnostic test for the former.....Maybe you think you're a good bet and the risk is small, but you're worried about your wife, or your kids, or someone else you're close to.

 

I'd like to keep this open as a topic discussing whether masks in helmets (or any other precaution or technology) could help football get played this fall

 

If it can't be kept Yet Another General Covid Discussion Thread with one guy saying masks don't work,another guy saying experts aren't, and a third guy saying infected people aren't infectious (all unreferenced of course!)  I will hafta latch it.   That would make me sad.  I can be sad. 🤷‍♂️

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4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The strongest immune system does not mean the physically strongest, and is not so easy to determine a priori.

 

Football relevance:

If you're a healthy player who is financially stable, do you want to wager the rest of your career on the bet that your immune system is a lean, mean, disease fighting machine vs. someone whose immune system is a paper tiger?  We can identify some risk factors, but there really isn't a diagnostic test for the former.....

 

 

Asking just for your opinon on this as someone whose studied the crap out of this: 

 

Assuming football player x is a healthy, above average specimen of a person (as they all are to some degree or another) and has no real pre-existing issues that would magnify the seriousness of covid... If player x was to get infected, with the insanely tight monitoring and the vast healthcare availability at his disposal, what would you say his real chance of serious harm/death would be? I imagine in that scenario it would be less than 10% chance? 

 

Obviously that eliminates all of the secondary concerns such as spread and complications and those who might have random things that make them higher risk. But I think it would be hard to not play under those circumstances. 

Edited by whatdrought

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1 hour ago, Sherlock Holmes said:

Are they going to fit the helmets with a vacuum pump that sucks all carbon dioxide out?

 

Can you imagine a big name going down because they couldn't get enough oxygen in and CO2 out?

 

Would they just call it brain or heart cramps if it did happen to minimize the bad PR?

 

Yeah, I don't see how anything that actually makes a positive face seal of a respirator can work.

But, if we're going all high tech it should in principle be possible to add some CO2 absorbant.

 

I just don't see it working myself.  As someone said once the helmet gets ripped off, there goes the protection.

I guess I just think it's interesting that the NFL is actually looking at the possibility.

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I’m with Doc Graham, who is much more learned than me, but I have been in medical device sales and biotechnology which he knows what that means and worn masks for almost two decades in OR’s and Surgery Centers.  I can understand them mandating the plastic face guards to just keep the sweat and other particulates from going directly to their mouth and nose, but it is unreasonable to think an N95 mask will do anything for these guys.  Besides if they are sweating on each other especially in the lines, then when they would rub their eyes or nose, they would be just as at risk.

 

This screams of PR.  I’ve already said many times I won’t make decisions to go to games until a vaccine only because it is my choice.  I don’t care if others go, but not for me and I’m healthy as anything working out six days a week.  I just don’t see these masks doing anything other than NFL saying they look good.  Good news down here in FL is the cases are dropping week by week, so teams wanting to practice down here isn’t a bad thing.

43 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

giphy.gif

 

might as well go all out and just use the bubble. seems that is pretty much what many are doing through this deal, living in a bubble. I feel the only way to strengthen the immune system is to give a fight. those with the weak immune system whether due to age or illness, those should be protected. the rest of us, battle the virus, build up you immune system so you're prepared for the next wave. callous as it may sound and has been a fact through the ages, only the strong survive.


Now that would be funny.  Bubble football.

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1 hour ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:


fake science. Viruses are not just magically flying around in the air by themselves. They don’t have wings.
 

and no one is claiming masks cure all either, just a potential mitigation.
 

I don’t see it helping in football though, there are body fluids flying all over the place 

Yes they are, just ask the experts!

 

You're right, I try to keep my fluids contained during games but it is so hard when I see McCaffrey hit the hole or when Kuechly would run stride for stride with Gronk and bat the ball. Then for sure fluids are flying all over the place:cry:

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25 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Ha!  Well if there's a rapid test for infectious particles, and I were a player/coach, I would say it would be better to apply it BEFORE the helmets go on!

 

There's actually a face mask under development that can detect viral particles.  The catch is, right now it takes 2-3 hours for the face mask to detect them 😬

By that time, everyone has gone home from the game!  So I don't see it helping to play football this fall!

For sure. Israeli scientists are putting a breath test into trials that can tell within 60 secs if a person is infected. I'm hoping a similar test can be created for infectious particles. 

 

If this works, I'd hope the NFL uses them and has stations setup where you take the breath tesr in order to get into the facility.

 

 https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-may-13-2020/

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18 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

Asking just for your opinon on this as someone whose studied the crap out of this: 

 

Assuming football player x is a healthy, above average specimen of a person (as they all are to some degree or another) and has no real pre-existing issues that would magnify the seriousness of covid... If player x was to get infected, with the insanely tight monitoring and the vast healthcare availability at his disposal, what would you say his real chance of serious harm/death would be? I imagine in that scenario it would be less than 10% chance? 

 

Obviously that eliminates all of the secondary concerns such as spread and complications and those who might have random things that make them higher risk. But I think it would be hard to not play under those circumstances. 

I would say <1% if truly healthy... Aspiration should be preventing a lot of these deaths in the first place...

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21 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

Asking just for your opinon on this as someone whose studied the crap out of this: 

 

Assuming football player x is a healthy, above average specimen of a person (as they all are to some degree or another) and has no real pre-existing issues that would magnify the seriousness of covid... If player x was to get infected, with the insanely tight monitoring and the vast healthcare availability at his disposal, what would you say his real chance of serious harm/death would be? I imagine in that scenario it would be less than 10% chance? 

 

Obviously that eliminates all of the secondary concerns such as spread and complications and those who might have random things that make them higher risk. But I think it would be hard to not play under those circumstances. 

 

This kind of takes me aback.  If I thought I had 10% chance of death or serious harm at work...I would for reals find a new job, pronto!

 

I think the risk that this age group (football players) have for death is very very low assuming full access to the very best medical care.  Probably <0.01%.  I'm getting that from a Lancet study saying that 1% of those in their 20s that are diagnosed need hospitalization, and that the case fatality ratio in that age group is low, 0.3%. 

But for serious harm, I don't think we have any hard data yet.  HCW are too busy putting out the fires and looking at the highest risks for the worst outcomes (death) to put a number around morbidity, the risk of stroke, lung damage, and significant deterioration in physical condition.  Let's guess that almost all the 1% who are hospitalized are at risk for this, so 1% chance that if you get the disease, you may suffer significant impairment to your "money maker", your physical toolset.    You may face a prolonged rehab period to get close to what you were.

Are you thinking that players be like "1%?  Man that's puny, LETSGO!"?

 

 

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1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This kind of takes me aback.  If I thought I had 10% chance of death or serious harm at work...I would for reals find a new job, pronto!

 

I think the risk that this age group (football players) have for death is very very low.  Probably <0.1%.  I'm getting that from a Lancet study saying that 1% of those in their 20s that are diagnosed need hospitalization, and that the case fatality ratio in that age group is low, 0.3%. 

But for serious harm, I don't think we have any hard data yet.  HCW are too busy putting out the fires and looking at the highest risks for the worst outcomes (death) to put a number around morbidity, the risk of stroke, lung damage, and significant deterioration in physical condition.  Let's guess that the 1% who are hospitalized are at risk for this, so 1% chance that if you get the disease, you may suffer significant impairment to your "money maker", your physical toolset.

Are you thinking that players be like "1%?  Man that's puny, LETSGO!"?

 

 

 

Yeah, I was saying 10%  to be very generous. 

 

I do wonder about long term damage, that's a real case for concern on this that's not going to be known for some time. 

 

As for the last line- I do wonder at what point in the risk v reward analysis we get to a point where my outlined scenario has to happen. I mean, even places that were (are) shutdown had "essential" businesses and industries continuing on. The definition of essential is very different for a nasty virus with a sub 5% death rate (not sure where they're estimating it now, I've seen some that say sub 1%) than it would be for something with a 40-50% death rate. I guess all that to say, without a long term solution (vaccine, prevention, dynamite treatment, etc) how long can something like the NFL, a purely entertainment, truly non-essential enterprise be held hostage by this?

 

Not to be flippant about it, just wondering what the new normal looks like in lieu of a transformational solution. 

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20 minutes ago, Margarita said:

Von Miller who has recovered from covid-19 had some interesting opinions regarding his NFL teammates and their thoughts on the coronavirus and the upcoming season. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/05/13/von-miller-coronavirus-experience-nfl-season/

 

Interesting!  Thank you for finding this.  Two key take-aways for me is that Miller evidently had a relatively mild case, but needed to take a total of 17 days off from training!!!!!  He thinks everyone needs to be tested every day.    Also he thinks that people could attend, if they are spaced out. 

 

Q: You play a cardiovascular sport that requires conditioning and burst. What concerns do you have about long-term lung damage?

A: Taking 17 days off and then trying to get back into it, I really feel it. I still feel my lungs trying to get back in shape. It’s just all the wear and tear that it puts on your lungs. I’ve got asthma on top of that, so to try to run with asthma and then try to run after the coronavirus, that’s what I think some of the shortness of breath comes from. (....)

Q: The NFL is bracing for team facilities to reopen and seems to be charging ahead as if the 2020 season will happen as scheduled. If you were the commissioner, knowing the severity of the virus’s effects, how would you push forward?

A: If I was Commissioner Miller, I would take notes from the other leagues that are starting up before us. We got soccer coming up in Europe, and they’re going to do mass testing. That’s what we have to do. Every day we need to test all the players. It’s got to be part of the routine.

If one person gets this and it goes undetected, then that’s eight. Let’s say [Broncos wide receiver] Courtland Sutton gets tackled and he has the virus. Now you got the other team; they have the virus. I want to make sure all the players and all the staff and everybody coaching and everybody in the front office gets tested every day.

Also, if a stadium holds 65,000 people, they might cut it down to about 16,000 people and [spread people] out across the stadium. Everybody is going to have spaces to watch the game. Then you can get some of the real-life feel back, the real-life football back. (.....)

Q: Hundreds of people work at NFL team facilities. Would you be nervous to go back to work right now?

A: Yeah, and everybody’s got to stay masked up. I want to be safe. I want to make sure I can still deliver football to the fans, but I want to do it as safe as possible. I'm not cutting any corners when it comes to that.


 

 

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Spoiler alert:

 

Making 300+lb linemen wear masks while they play football will kill more NFL players than any virus from all the cardiovascular stress that mask is going to bring.   

 

 

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4 hours ago, keepthefaith said:

Dumb.  Test the players a couple times per week. 

 

This has to be sarcastic. Twice a year? How about twice a day?

 

Or Thursday  before the game, again on Saturday and before the start of the game? And again maybe Monday or Tuesday (depending on how long it takes from acquisition) to testing positive. And then the cycle begins again.

 

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I agree with you completely. 

As someone else said, it's a very violent sport.  Helmets get dislodged.  Spit, sweat, and blood get sprayed about.

I don't see how a barrier could be effective against all that.

 

 

 

There is nothing that is going to be perfect, or even close. Hell the solutions we are all using now aren't perfect and it will be worse for players playing a violent sport. 

 

Caveat: I have zero inside info here. But based on what I'm reading, they are grabbing at straws to think of something to REDUCE the risk. Masks (as we currently use) are completely impracticable and they will probably be dislodged several times a game. I'm guessing far more often than helmets coming off. Think of the enhanced face mask as one effort to stop the transmission. Guys are face to face, grunting and sweating. Would you rather have a face mask with some special anti particulate covering, or with nothing at all?

 

BTW, this is one of the reasons I think it's crazy to play the games even without fans until we have more information, more testing and tracking available.

 

If sports leagues move forward (as I expect they will) we should just KNOW some players will test positive going forward and some of them will transmit it on the practice field or during the game. I suppose we can decide how many deaths we will tolerate as a society in order to watch football going forward.

Edited by The Dean
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2 hours ago, dpberr said:

Spoiler alert:

 

Making 300+lb linemen wear masks while they play football will kill more NFL players than any virus from all the cardiovascular stress that mask is going to bring.   

 

 


so now the masks don’t prevent virus cells BUT they restrict oxygen Atoms. 

 

freelance scientists are lovely. 

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