Moral and immoral victories - This week's Buff News Fan column

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, Circlethewagon8404 said:

I can't remember, but more than likely, those two good punts were with the wind at this back.  I could be wrong.

 

The wind was apparently a total PITA switching directions and swirling around because the 67 yd punt was followed by a 35 yd punt going in the same direction in the same quarter, about 4 minutes later.

 

Either that, or Bojo is just hella inconsistent.

 

2 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

One of his two longer punts was a lousy punt that took a very fortunate bounce when the Raven decided not to try to catch it. He was pretty awful most of the day.

 

Fair

[Kelly the Dog]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

OK, I'm out of here.

 

 

Good. lol. On the first two if you watch the play live he easily has time and space to make a clean throw. In the captures the ball has left his hand and he STILL has enough space and time. He had room to step up and throw and follow through.

[dave mcbride]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The wind was apparently a total PITA switching directions and swirling around because the 67 yd punt was followed by a 35 yd punt going in the same direction in the same quarter, about 4 minutes later.

 

Either that, or Bojo is just hella inconsistant.

That's my take on him and why he's due to be replaced as soon as they can. For ST, you want consistency. He is the opposite of that despite making some monster kicks.

[Kelly the Dog]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

That's my take on him and why he's due to be replaced as soon as they can. For ST, you want consistency. He is the opposite of that despite making some monster kicks.

Yup. You would much rather have a P who kicks two 45 yarders than a 60 and a 30.

[ProcessYaDigg]

15 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Yup. You would much rather have a P who kicks two 45 yarders than a 60 and a 30.

Man, a 45 yard punt would be music to my ears the way he's been all year.  I'm tired of him giving opposing teams a short field.  Thank God for our defense to bail him out most of the time.

[Kelly the Dog]

3 minutes ago, Circlethewagon8404 said:

Man, a 45 yard punt would be music to my ears the way he's been all year.  I'm tired of him giving opposing teams a short field.  Thank God for our defense to bail him out most of the time.

Yep. he's about 27th in the league with about a 42 yard ave and 38 net. That ain't good.

[ticketssince61]

In amateur sports, there are moral victories.

 

If you are a division III basketball team playing Duke and the game is close, that is a moral victory

 

In Professional sports, there are no moral victories - you are paid to compete and theoretically should be  the equal of any of your opponents

 

Moral victories are for losers!

[CardinalScotts]

2 hours ago, Circlethewagon8404 said:

Still blows my mind that we didn't draw up a play for Beasley on that final play.  With that close to the goal, Beasley makes all the sense in the world cuz he finds ways to get open.  And it's still hard to swallow the fact that if we would've won that game, winning the division would've been completely in our control.  It can still be done, but it'll be much harder.  Or we should've just beaten Cleveland.  Either way, let's just get to double digit wins and get into the playoffs.  We will build on our losses and if we wind up playing a team for a second or third time in the playoffs, we'll be much tougher and more prepared.

he's bracketed

12 minutes ago, ticketssince61 said:

In amateur sports, there are moral victories.

 

If you are a division III basketball team playing Duke and the game is close, that is a moral victory

 

In Professional sports, there are no moral victories - you are paid to compete and theoretically should be  the equal of any of your opponents

 

Moral victories are for losers!

moral victory is the wrong term ...but measuring stick ? yep and it does build confidence 

1 hour ago, Kelly the Dog said:

The first two he clearly had time and space to throw. That isnt even a question. I'm not even sure you can see on your third one in the pic you showed, it is after he threw. He had time on all three. Did he have all day long? No. But it is a throw he needs to hit. At LEAST one of the three and probably two. The drops, for the most part, were blatant drops and nothing to do with Josh's duress, they are all on the receivers. Knox's big one was brutal. I was clearly exaggerating that Knox decided not to block Judon and I totally agree with you that he should not be placed in that situation (and I love Knox) but it was a weak effort, he barely slowed him whatsoever, and if it was Daboll or Josh that put him in that situation that is still an indictment of the offense as a whole in this game which was the point. If you or anyone thought the offense deserves a B, fine. I just think it was a C against a very good defense.

Yeah, I thought Bojo had his clown shoes on again, and Roberts was subpar on returns, but Hauschka nailed all three including a fairly long one when we needed him and needed him to regain confidence, and our coverage was good all day, so that's a B.

this is good stuff.....WGR needs to on here.....im not a josh allen excuse guy etc...there are things that prevent a good throw if  you watch other teams around the league. I wonder how many of us Bills fan don't

[Kelly the Dog]

3 hours ago, Circlethewagon8404 said:

Still blows my mind that we didn't draw up a play for Beasley on that final play.  With that close to the goal, Beasley makes all the sense in the world cuz he finds ways to get open.  And it's still hard to swallow the fact that if we would've won that game, winning the division would've been completely in our control.  It can still be done, but it'll be much harder.  Or we should've just beaten Cleveland.  Either way, let's just get to double digit wins and get into the playoffs.  We will build on our losses and if we wind up playing a team for a second or third time in the playoffs, we'll be much tougher and more prepared.

Apparently he was the second read and was open enough for a potential score. The first read was Brown and he had single coverage. I still don't think he ran a great pattern on that play at that time with just the CB on him. That could and maybe should have been a score. 

2 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Sorry OP but that offense gets a D as does the ST. Our defense has carried the remaining 66% of this team on their backs all year long.

This just proves I got it right since the other complaint about the offensive rating said it should have been a B. 

[Neo]

4 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Josh was a C. The line was a C. The receivers dropped 4-6 passes, which is a C. Singletary was good but dropped two balls, Gore and Josh did nothing for the run game so I thought it was a C. 
 

I added 4 Cs up, divided by C, and got C.

You should’ve gotten four!  Style points for H.L. Menken!

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Apparently he was the second read and was open enough for a potential score. The first read was Brown and he had single coverage. I still don't think he ran a great pattern on that play at that time with just the CB on him. That could and maybe should have been a score. 

This just proves I got it right since the other complaint about the offensive rating said it should have been a B. 

Pretty much it.

 

If the offense executes 1-2 more plays that game, we tie or win outright. And when there’s more than a handful of miscues, that means the offense wasn’t all that great.

[LSHMEAB]

6 hours ago, Motorin' said:

It's pretty simple, does the team use positives in a loss to build on and get better? That's the important thing.

Said it perfectly. I tend to disagree with the premise that there's an actual "moral" victory. You..play...to...win...the...game.

 

If they go into Pittsburgh and build on the positive things they did and negate the negative things they did, then the game may have served a positive purpose. If they go into Pittsburgh and lay an egg, then the game may have served a negative purpose.

 

Looking back at the Ravens game and trying to extrapolate whether it was a "good loss" or simply a loss is an exercise in futility. It's always THIS WEEK in the NFL and Pitt. is a CRITICAL game.

[LSHMEAB]

3 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

That's my take on him and why he's due to be replaced as soon as they can. For ST, you want consistency. He is the opposite of that despite making some monster kicks.

Exactly. Bojo is a mixed bag because there are times in which he shocks you and rocks one, but punter is the last position you'd want a "mixed bag" from on an NFL roster. You don't want some kind of huge disparity per punt. That 65 yarder is great, but the 33 yarder is more harmful than that 65 yarder is helpful.

 

You could argue kicker and QB are in the discussion, but it's only natural that a kicker is going to miss a few and a QB is going to have an off day. There's no reason to accept off days from a punter.

Edited December 11, 2019 by LSHMEAB

[Kelly the Dog]

2 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Exactly. Bojo is a mixed bag because there are times when he shocks you and rocks one, but punter is the last position you'd want a "mixed bag" from an NFL roster.

 

You could argue kicker and QB are in the discussion, but it's only natural that a kicker is going to miss a few and a QB is going to have an off day. There's no reason to accept off days from a punter.

Yep. I call him Bojo the Clown.

[billsfanmiami(oh)]

2 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Apparently he was the second read and was open enough for a potential score. The first read was Brown and he had single coverage. I still don't think he ran a great pattern on that play at that time with just the CB on him. That could and maybe should have been a score. 

This just proves I got it right since the other complaint about the offensive rating said it should have been a B. 

I re-watched the final play a few times yesterday and immediately noticed that. Beas comes out of his break right about when josh releases the ball. Minimum, he would have had an easy 1st but very well could have walked in for a score. Brown has single coverage so can’t really fault the read and Josh made a good enough throw to get the score. The DB had great positioning and made a really good play on the ball. He knew the route and made the play. Lots can be learned from the film room.

[Beast]

I’m not one for moral victories however I feel real good about where this team is heading into Pittsburgh.

 

Real good.

[BuffaloMatt]

5 hours ago, Circlethewagon8404 said:

That's why I have a good feeling about this Sunday night

Good vibrations!

[Kelly the Dog]

1 minute ago, BuffaloMatt said:

Good vibrations!

And libations!

[BuffaloMatt]

20 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

And libations!

By 8:00 pm Sunday with all the nervous drinking I'll be doing. Could get ugly. Never realized how much I liked the 1:00 start. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by BuffaloMatt

[Kelly the Dog]

2 minutes ago, BuffaloMatt said:

By 8:00 pm Sunday with all the nervous drinking I'll be doing. Could get ugly. Never realized how much I liked the 1:00 start. 

10 am here. You can't drink all day if you don't start in the morning.

[BuffaloMatt]

8 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

10 am here. You can't drink all day if you don't start in the morning.

I'm in! Definitely will be ugly Really ugly if we lose.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

209 yards and 3.1 ypp is genuinely pathetic. Yes, they scored 17, but they turned the ball over deep in their own territory, and that led to 7. I think "C" is if anything slightly generous. They were playing at home too.  I'd say that they got to 17 because their kicker outperformed his seasonal pace. 

 

EDIT: That is the only game this year in which the Ravens D held an opposing offense to under 4 ypp. It was their best performance of the season on that front, and the Bills were nearly a full yard under 4 ypp (the week before, the 49ers averaged 6.4).  Again, that is pathetic. 

 

I'm sure the SF49ers feel a great sense of moral victory because they racked up 331 yards and scored the same number of points against the Ravens

The Texans and Rams are doubtless also proud that they achieved 23 and 12 more offensive yards than we did, whilst giving up 41 and 45 points to the Ravens offense.  I'm sure the Rams are happy they didn't give up a strip sack fumble and only threw 2 INTs instead.  Houston probably happy they only got picked 1x and  fumbled 1x (1 lost) instead of 2x (1 lost).

 

I mean, seriously, you're all "it's genuinely pathetic" over 23 or 12 yds, and a strip sack fumble vs 2 INTs or 1 fumble, 1 INT?

 

There were two key game turning plays in this game. 

One was the strip-sack fumble on the Bills 24 yd line, due to Knox being completely overmatched against Judon.

The other was the busted coverage 3 plays into the 3Q, which allowed a 2 yard pass to the TE to turn into a 61 yd TD.

 

 

 

 

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm sure the SF49ers feel a great sense of moral victory because they racked up 331 yards and scored the same number of points against the Ravens

The Texans and Rams are doubtless also proud that they achieved 23 and 12 more offensive yards than we did, whilst giving up 41 and 45 points to the Ravens offense.  I'm sure the Rams are happy they didn't give up a strip sack fumble and only threw 2 INTs instead.  Houston probably happy they only got picked 1x and  fumbled 1x (1 lost) instead of 2x (1 lost).

 

I mean, seriously, you're all "it's genuinely pathetic" over 23 or 12 yds, and a strip sack fumble vs 2 INTs or 1 fumble, 1 INT?

 

There were two key game turning plays in this game. 

One was the strip-sack fumble on the Bills 24 yd line, due to Knox being completely overmatched against Judon.

The other was the busted coverage 3 plays into the 3Q, which allowed a 2 yard pass to the TE to turn into a 61 yd TD.

 

 

 

 

I’d add the 4-5 overthrown balls in the first 3 drives that were easily 30-50 yard plays if not TDs as game changing.

Edited December 11, 2019 by FireChans

[Hapless Bills Fan]

50 minutes ago, billsfanmiami(oh) said:

I re-watched the final play a few times yesterday and immediately noticed that. Beas comes out of his break right about when josh releases the ball. Minimum, he would have had an easy 1st but very well could have walked in for a score. Brown has single coverage so can’t really fault the read and Josh made a good enough throw to get the score. The DB had great positioning and made a really good play on the ball. He knew the route and made the play. Lots can be learned from the film room.

 

Or he could have been tackled short of the first down and everyone would be all "stupid decision when Brown was open down on the 1 yd line"

Humphrey looks to me like he was already recovering and switching directions, so assuming Beasley hauls it in, making the first would come down to just how quick he is and whether/how well McKensie is able to block his defender and keep him out of the play.  Lots of assumptions.

 

I can't help wondering if Brown couldn't have made some adjustment to screen Peters off from the ball.  But I don't know.

[ProcessYaDigg]

12 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

Exactly. Bojo is a mixed bag because there are times in which he shocks you and rocks one, but punter is the last position you'd want a "mixed bag" from on an NFL roster. You don't want some kind of huge disparity per punt. That 65 yarder is great, but the 33 yarder is more harmful than that 65 yarder is helpful.

 

You could argue kicker and QB are in the discussion, but it's only natural that a kicker is going to miss a few and a QB is going to have an off day. There's no reason to accept off days from a punter.

Well said!

[dave mcbride]

11 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm sure the SF49ers feel a great sense of moral victory because they racked up 331 yards and scored the same number of points against the Ravens

The Texans and Rams are doubtless also proud that they achieved 23 and 12 more offensive yards than we did, whilst giving up 41 and 45 points to the Ravens offense.  I'm sure the Rams are happy they didn't give up a strip sack fumble and only threw 2 INTs instead.  Houston probably happy they only got picked 1x and  fumbled 1x (1 lost) instead of 2x (1 lost).

 

I mean, seriously, you're all "it's genuinely pathetic" over 23 or 12 yds, and a strip sack fumble vs 2 INTs or 1 fumble, 1 INT?

 

There were two key game turning plays in this game. 

One was the strip-sack fumble on the Bills 24 yd line, due to Knox being completely overmatched against Judon.

The other was the busted coverage 3 plays into the 3Q, which allowed a 2 yard pass to the TE to turn into a 61 yd TD.

 

 

 

 

I know points are supposed to be the be and end all, but when you watch the game on a play by play basis and judge it accordingly, the fact that that the Bills couldn’t move the ball really sticks out. You can stick to you your metric, which is perfectly fine, but I watched the game and saw an offense that was almost completely overwhelmed and which looked like garbage save for a few plays.

[US Egg]

I cannot relate to moral stories.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

22 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I know points are supposed to be the be and end all, but when you watch the game on a play by play basis and judge it accordingly, the fact that that the Bills couldn’t move the ball really sticks out. You can stick to you your metric, which is perfectly fine, but I watched the game and saw an offense that was almost completely overwhelmed and which looked like garbage save for a few plays.

 

As most people here know, I don't rely on stats.  I watch the games, usually several times including the condensed game in slowmo and the all-22.

 

I guess it all depends upon your point of view.  For most of the game, the vaunted unstoppable Ravens offense couldn't move the ball either.  The exception is that one 61 yd pass play we gave up.  They scored 14 of their 24 points on that one play plus the strip sack where we gave them field position practically in the red zone (24 yd line)

 

Is that because the offense "played like garbage" or because both defenses played lights out?

 

We had plays we could have taken and didn't.  The 1Q was particularly bad in that regard.  I'm very confident in what I see there because Allen echoed it in his presser.

We also had plays we made. 

 

The point I'm trying to make, Dave, is that Context matters.  If that offensive performance had occurred facing a "meh" defense like, say, New Orleans, it would be garbage.

 

But it didn't.  It occurred against a defense that isn't getting the Loooooove that Lamar Jackson gets, but is arguably far more responsible for their success, especially over the last 6 games since they acquired Peters and made some other changes our Guest Fans delineated.  This is a defense that has been making a lot of great offenses look shabby. 

 

We lost.  That means we didn't do enough on offense.  I'm sure we agree on that.

[Kelly the Dog]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

As most people here know, I don't rely on stats.  I watch the games, usually several times including the condensed game in slowmo and the all-22.

 

I guess it all depends upon your point of view.  For most of the game, the vaunted unstoppable Ravens offense couldn't move the ball either.  The exception is that one 61 yd pass play we gave up.  They scored 14 of their 24 points on that one play plus the strip sack where we gave them field position practically in the red zone (24 yd line)

 

Is that because the offense "played like garbage" or because both defenses played lights out?

 

We had plays we could have taken and didn't.  The 1Q was particularly bad in that regard.  I'm very confident in what I see there because Allen echoed it in his presser.

We also had plays we made. 

 

The point I'm trying to make, Dave, is that Context matters.  If that offensive performance had occurred facing a "meh" defense like, say, New Orleans, it would be garbage.

 

But it didn't.  It occurred against a defense that isn't getting the Loooooove that Lamar Jackson gets, but is arguably far more responsible for their success, especially over the last 6 games since they acquired Peters and made some other changes our Guest Fans delineated.  This is a defense that has been making a lot of great offenses look shabby. 

 

We lost.  That means we didn't do enough on offense.  I'm sure we agree on that.

Name all of the players or units on offense that you consider to be “above average” versus the Ravens overall. 
 

 

2 hours ago, I am the egg man said:

I cannot relate to moral stories.

That is because you are immoral or amoral.

[US Egg]

38 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

That is because you are immoral or amoral.

Thank you Dr. Freud.

 

Can I make payments or do you want cash up front ?

[Kelly the Dog]

8 minutes ago, I am the egg man said:

Thank you Dr. Freud.

 

Can I make payments or do you want cash up front ?

Cash of course. In small, non-sequential bills, behind the second tree from the left. Come alone.

[TigerJ]

An immoral victory is any game won by the Patriots?

 

In a more serious reply, while every game is an event and both players and coaches need to have tunnel vision, focused on the next opponent.  At the same time everybody knows the real goal of a team is to make the playoffs, and then keep winning until they can hoist the Lombardi Trophy.  From the beginning of the season, every win takes the team closer to it's initial goal of making the playoffs.  Every loss is a game you'll have to make up for later in the season, until or unless you run out of chances.  Winning the Baltimore game would have put the Bills in the playoffs with 3 weeks left in the season.  Of course, everybody should feel a bit disgusted that they weren't able to pull it off, even though the Bills have 3 more chances to get it. 

 

In a completely different thought track, the overall health of the team (not talking about the physical health of the players), the close loss to the Ravens should suggest to the coaches, players and fans alike that Buffalo overall is a very good team, a team to be reckoned with by the rest of the league.  We are not a team that needs to tank for draft picks or contemplate a complete rebuild.  A few changes the next time Buffalo meets the Ravens, or a team of similar quality, and the results could be different.  A few improvements here and there should insure that the Bills are among the elite teams of the league in 2020, and maybe the reign of the New England Patriots at the top of the AFC East has reached a dead end.  Who would not be encouraged by those thoughts.

Edited December 11, 2019 by TigerJ

[Kelly the Dog]

18 minutes ago, TigerJ said:

An immoral victory is any game won by the Patriots?

Considering that morality means principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior, I would say that it was inarguable.