Moral and immoral victories - This week's Buff News Fan column

[Motorin']

Just now, Kelly the Dog said:

Agreed. Although those types of things is non-linear. It doesn't of course mean that they will or will not drop or miss less passes next week, or get better pass blocking, etc.

Exactly, that type of close loss to an elite team highlights some very specific personnel needs that can be addressed in the off season. 

 

 

[Kelly the Dog]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I thought I did.  I acknowledge the dropped balls, missed throws, and duress.  And most certainly we lost.  And the dropped balls, missed throws, and duress didn't magically appear like the cheshire cat's smile.  The Poebirds flew in with them and dropped them on us.

 

 

No they didn't, we did that totally to ourselves. On the bad passes, Josh had plenty of time. On the drops, the receivers had plenty of room. On the strip-sack, Knox just decided not to block Judon. They were unforced errors.

[JimmyNoodles]

Good topic.  The next three weeks will tell the story of this team and if they can go and win a playoff game.  The Bills need to win out and beat the Cheaters, who are ripe for the taking.  Until we beat the Cheaters, confidence will always be lacking.   

[Kelly the Dog]

1 hour ago, Boatdrinks said:

They’re different IF they win a 10th game and reserve their own place at the playoff table. If they don’t, it looks like more of the same. 

Yup. Another couple lines from the article, "The Steelers game on Sunday now becomes the third consecutive 'biggest game of the season' and playoff atmosphere. The Bills are legit top-of-the-conference contenders with a win, and yet possibly in severe danger with a loss."

[Hapless Bills Fan]

25 minutes ago, Circlethewagon8404 said:

Still blows my mind that we didn't draw up a play for Beasley on that final play.  With that close to the goal, Beasley makes all the sense in the world cuz he finds ways to get open.  And it's still hard to swallow the fact that if we would've won that game, winning the division would've been completely in our control.  It can still be done, but it'll be much harder.  Or we should've just beaten Cleveland.  Either way, let's just get to double digit wins and get into the playoffs.  We will build on our losses and if we wind up playing a team for a second or third time in the playoffs, we'll be much tougher and more prepared.

 

Well, here's my thing.  Through most of the season, Brown has been our #1 WR.  And when the game is on the line, you go to your #1.  Right now, that's still Brown.

 

The last two games, Brown has all but disappeared while Beasley has been great at times and also has bobbled and dropped balls and let a ball bounce off his thigh for a pick.  He's been taking a step recently, it appears, as Brown has been being taken out of it more, but he missed a key catch Sunday.   So maybe you have a point, but it's at best arguable.

 

The bottom line, if Brown wants to make his case for "Smoke is Dangerous" in the pro-bowl voting, he has to show up when it counts.   He has to get with his coaches or dial up his friend Larry Fitzgerald and figure out how to make those plays when the game is on the line, because contested catch or not, that's what the #1 guy does.  He had a similar non-catch where the ball hit his hands and may or may not have been deflected in the Browns game for what would have been a key 3rd down conversion. 

 

Brown makes a point that the Ravens got away with a lot of pass interference in this snippet

 

I grant this is one clip of a longer interview and could be out of context, but when a true #1 fails to haul in catch on the goalline that hits his hands, the only thing to say is "I have to find a way to make that play"

 

[Kelly the Dog]

7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, here's my thing.  Through most of the season, Brown has been our #1 WR.  And when the game is on the line, you go to your #1.  Right now, that's still Brown.

 

The last two games, Brown has all but disappeared while Beasley has been great at times and also has bobbled and dropped balls and let a ball bounce off his thigh for a pick.  He's been taking a step recently, it appears, as Brown has been being taken out of it more, but he missed a key catch Sunday.   So maybe you have a point, but it's at best arguable.

 

The bottom line, if Brown wants to make his case for "Smoke is Dangerous" in the pro-bowl voting, he has to show up when it counts.   He has to get with his coaches or dial up his friend Larry Fitzgerald and figure out how to make those plays when the game is on the line, because contested catch or not, that's what the #1 guy does.  He had a similar non-catch where the ball hit his hands and may or may not have been deflected in the Browns game for what would have been a key 3rd down conversion. 

 

Brown makes a point that the Ravens got away with a lot of pass interference in this snippet

 

I grant this is one clip of a longer interview and could be out of context, but when a true #1 fails to haul in catch on the goalline that hits his hands, the only thing to say is "I have to find a way to make that play"

 

I also thought he didn't seem to be going 100% and trying to get away from Peters, on the biggest play of the game. Maybe he thought he had a little more room or distance but I thought when I saw it and the immediate replay that he could have been faster on the pattern.

[keepthefaith]

From a team perspective, you could replace the phrase "moral victory" with "confidence building defeat".  Not that any defeat is good especially in a short football season, but a game like the Ravens game is evidence that the Bills team can hang with the best and that with some nominal improvements a winning outcome is possible next time.  That's a whole different feeling for the team than if they had gotten their butts whooped.  It should give the team some confidence in their prep for the next game and make that task simpler with fewer things to fix. 

Edited December 10, 2019 by keepthefaith

[ProcessYaDigg]

14 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, here's my thing.  Through most of the season, Brown has been our #1 WR.  And when the game is on the line, you go to your #1.  Right now, that's still Brown.

 

The last two games, Brown has all but disappeared while Beasley has been great at times and also has bobbled and dropped balls and let a ball bounce off his thigh for a pick.  He's been taking a step recently, it appears, as Brown has been being taken out of it more, but he missed a key catch Sunday.   So maybe you have a point, but it's at best arguable.

 

The bottom line, if Brown wants to make his case for "Smoke is Dangerous" in the pro-bowl voting, he has to show up when it counts.   He has to get with his coaches or dial up his friend Larry Fitzgerald and figure out how to make those plays when the game is on the line, because contested catch or not, that's what the #1 guy does.  He had a similar non-catch where the ball hit his hands and may or may not have been deflected in the Browns game for what would have been a key 3rd down conversion. 

 

Brown makes a point that the Ravens got away with a lot of pass interference in this snippet

 

I grant this is one clip of a longer interview and could be out of context, but when a true #1 fails to haul in catch on the goalline that hits his hands, the only thing to say is "I have to find a way to make that play"

 

 Brown was blanketed all game, and yes, Beasley had a couple of costly drops, but I still feel that he would've been the surer target in this particular scenario.  Especially since we utilize him a lot during 3rd down situations and has great success with that.  I do get your point with Brown being our #1 and he wants to be the #1, so he needs to show that he can be that guy on a consistent basis.  His next two match ups will be just as tough going against Fitzpatrick and Gilmore, so it's time for him to step up and prove himself.  He has the speed to blow by both guys, so I do believe that he and Josh will be dialing up a game plan this Sunday to prove his worth.

[LABILLBACKER]

Sorry OP but that offense gets a D as does the ST. Our defense has carried the remaining 66% of this team on their backs all year long.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

16 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

No they didn't, we did that totally to ourselves. On the bad passes, Josh had plenty of time. On the drops, the receivers had plenty of room. On the strip-sack, Knox just decided not to block Judon. They were unforced errors.

 

Kelly, I have a lot of respect for you, but this is a very bad take.  It's not just time, it's time and space.

First, here is what Josh's throwing motion looks like when he has "plenty of time" (and space).  This is  a deep TD throw to Brown.  Look at his hip relative to his knee and foot:

Here is Josh's throw to Brown.  You can see the Ravens are bringing the heat, including a guy who just beat Singletary and a delayed blitzer.  That's not Josh's usual throwing platform, and if he took his usual step one of the Ravens may well hit his arm, so he wisely didn't.

 

Here's the throw to Foster.  There is no pocket, and while Spain is between Josh and the rushers, he's being pushed into Josh's lap.

Here's the throw to Knox.  Again, Josh is still on his feet, but barely.  Bodies all around, and he's hit  a split second after he throws:

Here's the 2nd overthrow to Brown.  This is after Josh weaves his way through three bodies (one of whom literally upends Morse) and escapes from the pocket:

 

To the rest, Knox didn't "decide not to block" Judon, Judon just beat him to the outside and Knox stuck with him, trying to force him deep and past Josh, but he lost again.  Any plan that has Knox on Judon is just a Bad Plan - but that's because Judon is an exceptional player, not because Knox can't block or doesn't try.

 

While the drops we see as drops weren't contested catches, neither were they easy grabs (in part because of the duress Josh was under).

 

Were there things our offense could have done differently and better, Yes, but to talk as though these are "self inflicted wounds" or "unforced errors" - I can't even.  The Baltimore D deserves props, Man.  They're good, and they did force errors.

 

 

 

 

[ProcessYaDigg]

5 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Sorry OP but that offense gets a D as does the ST. Our defense has carried the remaining 66% of this team on their backs all year long.

No way does the ST get a D for that game.  The punter was atrocious, yes, but Money Haushka was money that game.  He's been unreliable lately and I was afraid to match him up against Tucker, but he proved that he's still valuable.  And it's not like we allowed them to break for any long punt or kick off returns.  We held them in check.  One thing I was frustrated with is Roberts.  I know he's hungry and wants to take one to the house, but for goodness sake, if you catch it in the endzone, just put your knee down and let your offense start on the 25 instead of the 20 or worse and avoid injuries. At worst, ST was average as a whole.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

FWIW, Cover1 on the Baltimore game plan:

 

 

34 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, here's my thing.  Through most of the season, Brown has been our #1 WR.  And when the game is on the line, you go to your #1.  Right now, that's still Brown.

 

The last two games, Brown has all but disappeared while Beasley has been great at times and also has bobbled and dropped balls and let a ball bounce off his thigh for a pick.  He's been taking a step recently, it appears, as Brown has been being taken out of it more, but he missed a key catch Sunday.   So maybe you have a point, but it's at best arguable.

 

The bottom line, if Brown wants to make his case for "Smoke is Dangerous" in the pro-bowl voting, he has to show up when it counts.   He has to get with his coaches or dial up his friend Larry Fitzgerald and figure out how to make those plays when the game is on the line, because contested catch or not, that's what the #1 guy does.  He had a similar non-catch where the ball hit his hands and may or may not have been deflected in the Browns game for what would have been a key 3rd down conversion. 

 

Brown makes a point that the Ravens got away with a lot of pass interference in this snippet

 

I grant this is one clip of a longer interview and could be out of context, but when a true #1 fails to haul in catch on the goalline that hits his hands, the only thing to say is "I have to find a way to make that play"

 

 

Gauche to follow my own post, but this from Cover1 seems to validate Brown's point (and also make the point that slowed routes may be a factor in Josh's overthrows)

 

 

[ProcessYaDigg]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Kelly, I have a lot of respect for you, but this is a very bad take.  It's not just time, it's time and space.

First, here is what Josh's throwing motion looks like when he has "plenty of time" (and space).  This is  a deep TD throw to Brown.  Look at his hip relative to his knee and foot:

Here is Josh's throw to Brown.  You can see the Ravens are bringing the heat, including a guy who just beat Singletary and a delayed blitzer.  That's not Josh's usual throwing platform, and if he took his usual step one of the Ravens may well hit his arm, so he wisely didn't.

 

Here's the throw to Foster.  There is no pocket, and while Spain is between Josh and the rushers, he's being pushed into Josh's lap.

Here's the throw to Knox.  Again, Josh is still on his feet, but barely.  Bodies all around, and he's hit  a split second after he throws:

Here's the 2nd overthrow to Brown.  This is after Josh weaves his way through three bodies (one of whom literally upends Morse) and escapes from the pocket:

 

To the rest, Knox didn't "decide not to block" Judon, Judon just beat him to the outside and Knox stuck with him, trying to force him deep and past Josh, but he lost again.  Any plan that has Knox on Judon is just a Bad Plan - but that's because Judon is an exceptional player, not because Knox can't block or doesn't try.

 

While the drops we see as drops weren't contested catches, neither were they easy grabs (in part because of the duress Josh was under).

 

Were there things our offense could have done differently and better, Yes, but to talk as though these are "self inflicted wounds" or "unforced errors" - I can't even.  The Baltimore D deserves props, Man.  They're good, and they did force errors.

 

 

 

 

Damn, good captures!  Seeing this definitely makes you feel better about Josh Allen.  Give him time and a clean pocket equals big time success for him.  The Ravens D Line was insane that game and our O Line was constantly getting beat.  JA had little to no time at all during most of this game.

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I thought I did.  I acknowledge the dropped balls, missed throws, and duress.  And most certainly we lost.  And the dropped balls, missed throws, and duress didn't magically appear like the cheshire cat's smile.  The Poebirds flew in with them and dropped them on us.

 

But at the same time, if you're going to be talking about "Moral Victories", I think it needs to be acknowledged that if you achieve close to 1 std deviation above the mean on a test, that's usually not graded "C".  And that's exactly where we were wrt the Ravens D. 

The Ravens are a damn fine defense.   If a damn fine defense makes your offense look ragged and you still manage to be in it at the end of the game, and your point is to talk about morals, there's a moral in there somewhere.

 

It's not like we faced a defense that's been giving up 300 ypg passing and 200 ypg rushing and they somehow shut us down.

 

PS 1 of those scored sacks was due to Morse stepping on Allen's ankle and tripping him.  Another was a run attempt that was stuffed in the backfield.

209 yards and 3.1 ypp is genuinely pathetic. Yes, they scored 17, but they turned the ball over deep in their own territory, and that led to 7. I think "C" is if anything slightly generous. They were playing at home too.  I'd say that they got to 17 because their kicker outperformed his seasonal pace. 

 

EDIT: That is the only game this year in which the Ravens D held an opposing offense to under 4 ypp. It was their best performance of the season on that front, and the Bills were nearly a full yard under 4 ypp (the week before, the 49ers averaged 6.4).  Again, that is pathetic. 

Edited December 10, 2019 by dave mcbride

[Kelly the Dog]

5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Kelly, I have a lot of respect for you, but this is a very bad take.  It's not just time, it's time and space.

First, here is what Josh's throwing motion looks like when he has "plenty of time" (and space).  This is  a deep TD throw to Brown.  Look at his hip relative to his knee and foot:

Here is Josh's throw to Brown.  You can see the Ravens are bringing the heat, including a guy who just beat Singletary and a delayed blitzer.  That's not Josh's usual throwing platform, and if he took his usual step one of the Ravens may well hit his arm, so he wisely didn't.

 

Here's the throw to Foster.  There is no pocket, and while Spain is between Josh and the rushers, he's being pushed into Josh's lap.

Here's the throw to Knox.  Again, Josh is still on his feet, but barely.  Bodies all around, and he's hit  a split second after he throws:

Here's the 2nd overthrow to Brown.  This is after Josh weaves his way through three bodies (one of whom literally upends Morse) and escapes from the pocket:

 

To the rest, Knox didn't "decide not to block" Judon, Judon just beat him to the outside and Knox stuck with him, trying to force him deep and past Josh, but he lost again.  Any plan that has Knox on Judon is just a Bad Plan - but that's because Judon is an exceptional player, not because Knox can't block or doesn't try.

 

While the drops we see as drops weren't contested catches, neither were they easy grabs (in part because of the duress Josh was under).

 

Were there things our offense could have done differently and better, Yes, but to talk as though these are "self inflicted wounds" or "unforced errors" - I can't even.  The Baltimore D deserves props, Man.  They're good, and they did force errors.

 

 

 

 

The first two he clearly had time and space to throw. That isnt even a question. I'm not even sure you can see on your third one in the pic you showed, it is after he threw. He had time on all three. Did he have all day long? No. But it is a throw he needs to hit. At LEAST one of the three and probably two. The drops, for the most part, were blatant drops and nothing to do with Josh's duress, they are all on the receivers. Knox's big one was brutal. I was clearly exaggerating that Knox decided not to block Judon and I totally agree with you that he should not be placed in that situation (and I love Knox) but it was a weak effort, he barely slowed him whatsoever, and if it was Daboll or Josh that put him in that situation that is still an indictment of the offense as a whole in this game which was the point. If you or anyone thought the offense deserves a B, fine. I just think it was a C against a very good defense.

10 minutes ago, Circlethewagon8404 said:

No way does the ST get a D for that game.  The punter was atrocious, yes, but Money Haushka was money that game.  He's been unreliable lately and I was afraid to match him up against Tucker, but he proved that he's still valuable.  And it's not like we allowed them to break for any long punt or kick off returns.  We held them in check.  One thing I was frustrated with is Roberts.  I know he's hungry and wants to take one to the house, but for goodness sake, if you catch it in the endzone, just put your knee down and let your offense start on the 25 instead of the 20 or worse and avoid injuries. At worst, ST was average as a whole.

Yeah, I thought Bojo had his clown shoes on again, and Roberts was subpar on returns, but Hauschka nailed all three including a fairly long one when we needed him and needed him to regain confidence, and our coverage was good all day, so that's a B.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

13 minutes ago, Circlethewagon8404 said:

No way does the ST get a D for that game.  The punter was atrocious, yes, but Money Haushka was money that game.  He's been unreliable lately and I was afraid to match him up against Tucker, but he proved that he's still valuable.  And it's not like we allowed them to break for any long punt or kick off returns.  We held them in check.  One thing I was frustrated with is Roberts.  I know he's hungry and wants to take one to the house, but for goodness sake, if you catch it in the endzone, just put your knee down and let your offense start on the 25 instead of the 20 or worse and avoid injuries. At worst, ST was average as a whole.

 

I would call Borjorques a "mixed bag" rather than atrocious.  He had some good punts (67, 52 yds), some average punts (41, 43 yds) and some sucky punts (29, 33, 35 yds)

Of course, the sucky punts didn't help us.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Circlethewagon8404 said:

Damn, good captures!  Seeing this definitely makes you feel better about Josh Allen.  Give him time and a clean pocket equals big time success for him.  The Ravens D Line was insane that game and our O Line was constantly getting beat.  JA had little to no time at all during most of this game.

 

Thanks.  Yes, the Ravens DL was on Fire.  And rewatching the game allows me to appreciate to what extent JA created what time he did have by weaving through defenders and making them miss.

 

That's not to say that he couldn't have done better by making some quick, check-down type throws and moving the chains esp in the 1Q, but based on his presser, he knows that, too.

[ProcessYaDigg]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I would call Borjorques a "mixed bag" rather than atrocious.  He had some good punts (67, 52 yds), some average punts (41, 43 yds) and some sucky punts (29, 33, 35 yds)

Of course, the sucky punts didn't help us.

 

 

I can't remember, but more than likely, those two good punts were with the wind at this back.  I could be wrong.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

The first two he clearly had time and space to throw. That isnt even a question.

 

OK, I'm out of here.

 

 

[Kelly the Dog]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I would call Borjorques a "mixed bag" rather than atrocious.  He had some good punts (67, 52 yds), some average punts (41, 43 yds) and some sucky punts (29, 33, 35 yds)

Of course, the sucky punts didn't help us.

 

 

 

 

One of his two longer punts was a lousy punt that took a very fortunate bounce when the Raven decided not to try to catch it. He was pretty awful most of the day.

[ProcessYaDigg]

5 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Yeah, I thought Bojo had his clown shoes on again, and Roberts was subpar on returns, but Hauschka nailed all three including a fairly long one when we needed him and needed him to regain confidence, and our coverage was good all day, so that's a B.

It still baffles me how Bojo made this team