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YoloinOhio

Zay Jones blocking ability - I’m impressed

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49 minutes ago, Dopey said:

We're only into 1 game of year 3 for Zay. Last year was a crap show by the offense as a whole and he still put up ok #'s, considering. It was very premature to say he wouldn't make the team this year and it's very premature to judge him for the 2019 season. We won, he played a part in it and it's all good for Zay.

 

Yup, 1 game in, absolutely has a long season to insert himself, and hope he does.  I am not condemning him for the season, and I have been critical of every WR not named Brown week 1.  I do find it weird though in a game where we threw an entire first quarter and 37 times, that Zay was not a big part of the game plan and didn't see a lot of snaps for a starting WR...especially with Foster and McKenzie barely seeing the field.  

 

And its more than fair to claim that thread and prediction was "premature" if you want, I mean I made that bold prediction before even FA began and before Brown, Cole, etc were part of the team.  

 

But, what someone really cant do is disprove the criticisms I provided and others did too that led to the belief he wasn't a lock and was gonna have to compete.  In fact, his preseason was really in line with the criticisms he has faced.  And 18 yards week 1 was just more of the same in terms of his typical production.    

 

Its all good, but before people jump to criticize my thoughts from that thread, then Zay better show it on the field first.  And he hasn't unless you think a shaky preseason highlighted by dropped TD, blown 3rd down catch for first down, and 18 yards in week 1 is somehow him "silencing" the criticisms.

Edited by Alphadawg7
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3 hours ago, BillsVet said:

Zay was in on 29 offensive snaps out of 69 and targeted 5 times. 

 

It'll be interesting to see how he is used throughout the season and how that is affected if Foster's toe improves.  Will he remain a downfield blocker with a few targets or featured more in the passing game? 

 

I'd refrain from using the word "Bipolar" if you're not clear what it means.

My apologies to anyone who may have took offense. I think my meaning is clear, but maybe my terminology was in bad taste.:blush:

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2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

40 yards or less in 10 of 13 games with Allen in at QB the majority of the game...including 18 yards in week 1 where Allen threw 37 times, the entire first quarter, and went through his progressions a lot.  I think its fair for him to have "detractors".  And he has 22 yards or less 4 times in the 7 games going back to when Allen came back from injury.  Not to mention all the drops in his first 2 years and even this preseason.

 

Between a shaky preseason and minimal week 1, Zay has yet to show any signs or measurable "growth" in his 3rd year.  At some point, the excuses need to stop for a lack of involvement, productions, and consistency in the passing game with a 3rd year WR taken in the 2nd round who set NCAA records for receptions.  

 

Most confusing, is in a game where we threw on every play but one in the first quarter and 37 times total against a weak Jets secondary, why was Zay not on the field a lot for being a starter and only got 3 real targets (2 others were basically throw aways)?  Why did Daboll not feel he needed to be more involved and on the field more in a game we threw so much, and against a team that Zay had a good game against with Barkley last year?

 

Its great he blocked well, important part of being a WR.  But when is he going to start being a dependable receiver too?  

 

All I know, is he most often is not making much of an impact with Allen led Bills games...so why is that?  Is he not beating the defense enough? Does Allen not trust him enough?  Do the coaches not trust him enough?  Is it something else or a combo of all those?  Don't know, but as or right now he has yet to really be a key factor in the majority of Allen led football games both before and after Allens injury.  

 

New week this week...and a Giants defense that should let our offense keep progressing.  Lets hope he does more this week, as someone other than Brown needs to step up as Cole made two bad mistakes last week that almost cost us the game, and Zay, Foster, and McKenzie had little impact as well all for various reasons.  

 


 

I'm not sure who you're trying to convince? I didn't say anything about either being good or bad. I was just saying that no matter what, people have made their minds up about these 2 players, and it's going to take an act of the almighty to change them.

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6 hours ago, MJS said:

If Gore would have cut that a little more outside he had nothing but green grass. Maybe he isn't quick enough to get out there in time though.

try to stay focused on the positive post from OP  : )

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3 minutes ago, MikeSpeed said:

I'm not sure who you're trying to convince? I didn't say anything about either being good or bad. I was just saying that no matter what, people have made their minds up about these 2 players, and it's going to take an act of the almighty to change them.

 

This is exactly correct. 

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1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Yup, 1 game in, absolutely has a long season to insert himself, and hope he does.  I am not condemning him for the season, and I have been critical of every WR not named Brown week 1.  I do find it weird though in a game where we threw an entire first quarter and 37 times, that Zay was not a big part of the game plan and didn't see a lot of snaps for a starting WR...especially with Foster and McKenzie barely seeing the field.  

 

And its more than fair to claim that thread and prediction was "premature" if you want, I mean I made that bold prediction before even FA began and before Brown, Cole, etc were part of the team.  

 

But, what someone really cant do is disprove the criticisms I provided and others did too that led to the belief he wasn't a lock and was gonna have to compete.  In fact, his preseason was really in line with the criticisms he has faced.  And 18 yards week 1 was just more of the same in terms of his typical production.    

 

Its all good, but before people jump to criticize my thoughts from that thread, then Zay better show it on the field first.  And he hasn't unless you think a shaky preseason highlighted by dropped TD, blown 3rd down catch for first down, and 18 yards in week 1 is somehow him "silencing" the criticisms.

 

You would be taken more seriously if you did not do things like criticize Zay for not catching three of the balls thrown his way on Sunday.  Your arguments, as well laid out as they are, always seem to be littered those gross mis-characterizations.  

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1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I do find it weird though in a game where we threw an entire first quarter and 37 times, that Zay was not a big part of the game plan and didn't see a lot of snaps for a starting WR...especially with Foster and McKenzie barely seeing the field.  

To be fair, 5/37 is still 13.5% of our passes. Also, 5 targets on 29 snaps means he was targeted over 17% of the time he was in the game which is exactly in line with Brown & Beasley (17% & 19% respectively)

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Anyone see the all 22 and validated the 3 missed balls? 

 

One was overthrown that I saw.  I can’t put my finger on the other 2. 

I’m not blindly defending Zay.  I would just like to know the facts.  

 

 

Are blocking TE’s part of the game plan? 

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2 minutes ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

Anyone see the all 22 and validated the 3 missed balls? 

 

One was overthrown that I saw.  I can’t put my finger on the other 2. 

I’m not blindly defending Zay.  I would just like to know the facts.  

 

I'll be honest, on the 'overthrow' I said in real time that that's why Foster should play instead of Zay (blamed it on Zay not being a good receiver).

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And the other overthrows are the fault of the guys targeted too then ?

 

I know Zay is an easy target (pun intended)

I prefer more facts than speculation. 

 

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42 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

You would be taken more seriously if you did not do things like criticize Zay for not catching three of the balls thrown his way on Sunday.  Your arguments, as well laid out as they are, always seem to be littered those gross mis-characterizations.  

 

Except I did not do that once.  He had 4 legit targets (one which was tipped and picked by defender) and 1 throw away by Allen where Zay got the target for being closest to the ball.  Show me where I criticized his catch rate as if that was the issue.  And I criticized Cole even harder than I did Zay this week.  

 

I literally just said what was interesting was this was a game that we threw 37 times and for the entire first quarter, Zay still saw limited snaps, was not heavily involved in the offense, and was a game where neither Foster or McKenzie saw the field much.  

 

Not one time did I mock him for not catching 3 passes, 2 of which I am well aware were not catchable and were Josh throwing the ball away in his direction.  So sorry, you're wrong in what you say I have criticized.  

Edited by Alphadawg7

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28 minutes ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

Anyone see the all 22 and validated the 3 missed balls? 

 

One was overthrown that I saw.  I can’t put my finger on the other 2. 

I’m not blindly defending Zay.  I would just like to know the facts.  

 

 

Are blocking TE’s part of the game plan? 

Overthrown on one

Tip at line for INT on another

Complete throw away for 3

 

This is if memory serves right to last Sunday. 

Edited by Real McCoy
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7 hours ago, billsfan1959 said:

Zay Jones is a good blocking WR. He needs to show up more as a pass catching WR. I like Zay and believe he has the talent; however, he has not yet lived up to being the 37th overall pick. Hoping we see it this year.

to be fair... has any WR taken in the first two rounds of that draft class lived up to expectations other than Juju? I'd say Zay has made more of an impact than Corey Davis or John Ross, arguably more than Mike Williams too due to his availability. 

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10 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Except I did not do that once.  He had 4 legit targets (one which was tipped and picked by defender) and 1 throw away by Allen where Zay got the target for being closest to the ball.  Show me where I criticized his catch rate as if that was the issue.  And I criticized Cole even harder than I did Zay this week.  

 

I literally just said what was interesting was this was a game that we threw 37 times and for the entire first quarter, Zay still saw limited snaps, was not heavily involved in the offense, and was a game where neither Foster or McKenzie saw the field much.  

 

Not one time did I mock him for not catching 3 passes, 2 of which I am well aware were not catchable and were Josh throwing the ball away in his direction.  So sorry, you're wrong in what you say I have criticized.  

The mention of 5 targets implies that the 3 non-catches were related to him. If not, why even mention it? You see why that framing taints so much of what you're up to? A person not knowing any better would be led to an incorrect conclusion. 

Edited by JoshAllenHasBigHands

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50 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

To be fair, 5/37 is still 13.5% of our passes. Also, 5 targets on 29 snaps means he was targeted over 17% of the time he was in the game which is exactly in line with Brown & Beasley (17% & 19% respectively)

 

Yeah, but that kind of math still doesn't really help his case.  It just further shows that in a game where we intended to pass a lot (the plan was to throw a lot early in the game) to exploit the weakest part of the Jets defense, Zay (our starting WR, in his 3rd year, who was a 2nd round pick) was not really a big part of the game plan.

 

At some point, the excuses need to stop and the production needs to happen. 

 

22 yards or less in 4 of his last 7 games with Allen tells me something is off.  A shaky preseason and minimal impact week 1 tells me this (so far) is just more of the same with Zay and right in line with what we have seen from him before.

 

He doesn't need a bunch of excuses from a few posters to change critics minds, he needs to show it on the field...so far, shaky preseason and minimal week 1 usage an impact isn't doing that.  

 

 

15 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

The mention of 5 targets implies that the 3 non-catches were related to him. If not, why even mention it? You see why that framing taints so much of what you're up to? A person not knowing any better would be led to an incorrect conclusion. 

 

I mention 5 targets to show the MINIMAL amount he was involved in.  I did not say anything about his catch rate, not once.  I did consistently highlight his lack of involvement.  So no disrespect, but you're forming your own narrative on that and putting words in my mouth not consistent with I actually did say.  

Edited by Alphadawg7
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25 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Yeah, but that kind of math still doesn't really help his case.  It just further shows that in a game where we intended to pass a lot (the plan was to throw a lot early in the game) to exploit the weakest part of the Jets defense, Zay (our starting WR, in his 3rd year, who was a 2nd round pick) was not really a big part of the game plan.

 

At some point, the excuses need to stop and the production needs to happen. 

 

22 yards or less in 4 of his last 7 games with Allen tells me something is off.  A shaky preseason and minimal impact week 1 tells me this (so far) is just more of the same with Zay and right in line with what we have seen from him before.

 

He doesn't need a bunch of excuses from a few posters to change critics minds, he needs to show it on the field...so far, shaky preseason and minimal week 1 usage an impact isn't doing that.  

 

 

 

I mention 5 targets to show the MINIMAL amount he was involved in.  I did not say anything about his catch rate, not once.  I did consistently highlight his lack of involvement.  So no disrespect, but you're forming your own narrative on that and putting words in my mouth not consistent with I actually did say.  

Words have meaning, man. This is what rhetoric is all about. I don’t think you’re dumb, so I assume you know better than to dismiss the point as a narrative. Or, maybe you’ve just become so defensive because you have pigeon-holed yourself into a bad take. 

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17 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

Words have meaning, man. This is what rhetoric is all about. I don’t think you’re dumb, so I assume you know better than to dismiss the point as a narrative. Or, maybe you’ve just become so defensive because you have pigeon-holed yourself into a bad take. 

 

Bad take?  Come one man lol. 

 

If you are going to call it a "bad take", why don't you actually tell me what he has done on the field to prove its a bad take?  

 

Was it his shaky preseason with drops and miscues?  Was it his limited involvement in a pass happy week and 18 yards receiving?  Was it his 22 yards or less receiving in his last 7 games with Allen since he came back from injury?  Was it all the appearances in the Allen drops video?  Is it the less than 40 yards in 10 of 13 games with Allen as the QB?  

 

Sorry dude, but the criticisms are not coming from just me.  You like to focus on me because of one thread, but there are a lot more critics than defenders of him at this point.  Yes the "prediction" part was not accurate, but so far the criticisms have been validated on the field his first 2 years and so far in preseason and week 1 he has to prove them wrong on the field.

 

You want Zay to get some breathing room and the quiet the critics...great, then call him and tell him to do it on the field.  3 years of excuses...and I am done with the excuses.  Time to be a WR and produce.  

 

I am cool if you want to keep defending him and making excuses.  All good.  But its pretty silly to call the criticisms bad takes and for you try and twist words to create narratives I am not saying just to try and discredit the points that were actually made.  

 

 

Edited by Alphadawg7

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1 hour ago, Real McCoy said:

Overthrown on one

Tip at line for INT on another

Complete throw away for 3

 

This is if memory serves right to last Sunday. 

Like a typical Tyrod type game. Lol 😂 😉 😉 

 

3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

You want Zay to get some breathing room and the quiet the critics...great, then call him and tell him to do it on the field.  3 years of excuses...and I am done with the excuses.  Time to be a WR and produce.  

Year 1 was atrocious 

year 2 improvement 

year 3 one game    See above recollection 

 

tip ball is not his fault nor is a throw away 

 

im all for criticism when criticism is due. 

 

This is his year to prove himself 💯 

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24 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Yeah, but that kind of math still doesn't really help his case.  It just further shows that in a game where we intended to pass a lot (the plan was to throw a lot early in the game) to exploit the weakest part of the Jets defense, Zay (our starting WR, in his 3rd year, who was a 2nd round pick) was not really a big part of the game plan.

 

At some point, the excuses need to stop and the production needs to happen. 

 

22 yards or less in 4 of his last 7 games with Allen tells me something is off.  A shaky preseason and minimal impact week 1 tells me this (so far) is just more of the same with Zay and right in line with what we have seen from him before.

 

He doesn't need a bunch of excuses from a few posters to change critics minds, he needs to show it on the field...so far, shaky preseason and minimal week 1 usage an impact isn't doing that.  

 

 

Alpha, you got some really good post and comments but you are like a dawg (pun intended) with a bone when it comes to Jones.

 

1st - He was NOT a starter.  The Bills started and played most of the game in 21 personnel.  Go check the box score.  Brown and Beasley started.

2nd - Zay is the 3rd WR on the team.  Not the 4th and not the 2nd and certainly not the 1st.  3rd WR is what most poster predicted for him this year and

     it seems to be that we were right.  His draft position means nothing and Daboll doesn't care.

3rd - Zay Jones is not going to be the guy that Daboll schemes around when he does a game plan.  2WR/1RB/1TE have more influence in

    game planning than he does.  Once again, he is where he is.  2nd round pick means nothing this year.

 

Now all that being said, yes it is true to many that Zay has not lived up to his 2nd round pick potential so far and may never.

BUT, it doesn't matter.  He is exactly located where he needs to be at this time as the 3rd WR.

 

It seems pretty obvious to Beane, McDermott, Daboll, the fans and even Zay himself where he is at and what is expected of him this

year but you keep trying to make an issue out of it.  Personally I don't care about his past OR whether he will be on the team next year,

the only thing I'm concerned about is how he plays against the Gmen Sunday and I hope he does well.

 

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12 minutes ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

Like a typical Tyrod type game. Lol 😂 😉 😉 

 

Year 1 was atrocious 

year 2 improvement 

year 3 one game    See above recollection 

 

tip ball is not his fault nor is a throw away 

 

im all for criticism when criticism is due. 

 

This is his year to prove himself 💯 

 

To be fair, I was harder on Cole than Zay.  Cole almost lost us the game twice Sunday.  

 

I hope Zay had a good year, but I am also done making excuses for his lack of production.  He did nothing to dispel my concerns in preseason, and he was barely involved in a pass happy gameplay week 1 despite the fact neither Foster (turf toe) and McKenzie saw the field much.  

 

I will be the first to praise him when he goes out and shows me it on the field.  Until then, my concerns about him remain.  

7 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Alpha, you got some really good post and comments but you are like a dawg (pun intended) with a bone when it comes to Jones.

 

1st - He was NOT a starter.  The Bills started and played most of the game in 21 personnel.  Go check the box score.  Brown and Beasley started.

2nd - Zay is the 3rd WR on the team.  Not the 4th and not the 2nd and certainly not the 1st.  3rd WR is what most poster predicted for him this year and

     it seems to be that we were right.  His draft position means nothing and Daboll doesn't care.

3rd - Zay Jones is not going to be the guy that Daboll schemes around when he does a game plan.  2WR/1RB/1TE have more influence in

    game planning than he does.  Once again, he is where he is.  2nd round pick means nothing this year.

 

Now all that being said, yes it is true to many that Zay has not lived up to his 2nd round pick potential so far and may never.

BUT, it doesn't matter.  He is exactly located where he needs to be at this time as the 3rd WR.

 

It seems pretty obvious to Beane, McDermott, Daboll, the fans and even Zay himself where he is at and what is expected of him this

year but you keep trying to make an issue out of it.  Personally I don't care about his past OR whether he will be on the team next year,

the only thing I'm concerned about is how he plays against the Gmen Sunday and I hope he does well.

 

 

Its all good man, I am not intending to be that.  But I keep having the same excuses thrown at me and challenged, and I am just not afraid to address.  I was harder on Coles performance week 1, but that was overlooked.   

 

And this all about Allen...my passion is Allens development.  I just want him to have the tools to succeed.

 

 

Edited by Alphadawg7
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8 hours ago, billsfan1959 said:

Zay Jones is a good blocking WR. He needs to show up more as a pass catching WR. I like Zay and believe he has the talent; however, he has not yet lived up to being the 37th overall pick. Hoping we see it this year.

 

 

Sub Josh Reed for Zay Jones, and it’s like we are right back in 2004. 🙈

 

Zay has higher up side. 

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6 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

Foster did that in preseason too 

 

 

I guess this is why he is sitting on the bench 

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9 hours ago, billsfan1959 said:

I'm not saying he should have caught more passes on the plays he was targeted in this game. I was speaking of his overall time here. I cerainly understand the offensive issues on this team during his tenure with the Bills, particularly at the QB position; however, we see receivers emerge in similar situations and put up more consistent plays and numbers than he has. Again, I think he has the talent and I have always been a supporter of his - I just don't feel he has managed to play at the level I think he is capable of. Hoping it starts this year.

 

Examples?

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2 hours ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

And the other overthrows are the fault of the guys targeted too then ?

 

I know Zay is an easy target (pun intended)

I prefer more facts than speculation. 

 

 

Nope. Overthrows are always on Zay because he’s slow or ran the wrong route. You gotta get with the program with Zay bud.

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