Happy Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 Just now, K-9 said: Change the quoted post to the correct poster, please. Because I did not post what you have attributed to me. That quote was from a Bado post, not mine. Will do. Sorry about that...I took the quote from your post since it was there. I forgot that it would be linked to you and not Badol. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock-A-Bye Beasley Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said: Mahomes landed in a much better situation in KC than he would have in Buffalo. I doubt he would be the same player had he been in Buffalo than in KC. That said, I'm excited about Josh Allen and think his ceiling is high; it might take another year or two to completely develop his potential. Not sweating passing on Mahomes. This is what I don’t get. How is it that Mahomes would have been a completely different player, yet Allen’s development wasn’t hurt at all by his situation? you can’t have it both ways. Edited June 22, 2019 by Chemical 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 1 hour ago, GunnerBill said: While I agree Lynn has had an instant impact on results - Mike McCoy was costing them minimum 2 wins per season by being absolutely freaking useless. Worryingly he was McDermott's first choice as OC. He is a dreadful, dreadful, dreadful coach. Rex got fired for the same reason...............his insistence on forcing his useless defense on a proven top 5 defensive unit certainly cost them at least 2 wins per season.........no question that was a team that should have won 11 or 12 games with that talent(as the similarly unspectacularly QB'd Chiefs did). When McD went to camp in 2017 I said then he STILL had a potential 10 win team. That's why the fact that 2 years in they are 15-17 is not only disappointing but really the opposite of the synergy that the Lynn hiring created in LA. That doesn't mean McD can't turn it around but at this point he and Lynn are what their records say they are. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 1 minute ago, Chemical said: Thai is what I don’t get. How is it that Mahomes would have been a completely different player, yet Allen’s development wasn’t hurt at all by his situation? you can’t have it both ways. Andy Reid, Tyreek Hill, Travis Kelce, Kareem Hunt. One of the best OLs in the game. Need I go on? It isn’t that Allen was hurt so much as he wasn’t nearly as advantaged. Some want to pretend that Mahomes would have turned out the same in Buffalo and perhaps he would have, but the evidence doesn’t support that supposition in the least. 6 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said: Will do. Sorry about that...I took the quote from your post since it was there. I forgot that it would be linked to you and not Badol. Much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, Chemical said: This is what I don’t get. How is it that Mahomes would have been a completely different player, yet Allen’s development wasn’t hurt at all by his situation? you can’t have it both ways. I said not the same player if in Buffalo as in KC. Coaching, offensive philosophy, and player personnel make a huge difference. Josh Allen would be a different player in, say Baltimore, than he was in Buffalo. Just the reality of the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Chemical said: This is what I don’t get. How is it that Mahomes would have been a completely different player, yet Allen’s development wasn’t hurt at all by his situation? you can’t have it both ways. When the Bills were beating KC in their own building in 2017...........with the Chiefs looking utterly punchless offensively despite having Tyreek Hill, Travis Kelce and Kareem Hunt in the lineup was ANYONE'S thought............"if only this Chiefs team had a second year QB they'd be the most dynamic offense in football!" Patrick Mahomes is a great football player. Period. It's amazing the lengths people go to defend McBeane and then in the same breath backhand them with the "well the situation McBeane was creating in Buffalo was so bad with the hirings and bad WR choices and OL choices that Mahomes would not have been able to succeed". At what point will the Bills be good enough to support a QB who has proven he can throw 50 TD passes? 6 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said: I said not the same player if in Buffalo as in KC. Coaching, offensive philosophy, and player personnel make a huge difference. Josh Allen would be a different player in, say Baltimore, than he was in Buffalo. Just the reality of the situation. Do tell us what kind of player Mahomes would have been in Buffalo..............put it out there...........what would have happened? Edited June 22, 2019 by BADOLBILZ 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 19 minutes ago, K-9 said: Andy Reid, Tyreek Hill, Travis Kelce, Kareem Hunt. One of the best OLs in the game. Need I go on? It isn’t that Allen was hurt so much as he wasn’t nearly as advantaged. Some want to pretend that Mahomes would have turned out the same in Buffalo and perhaps he would have, but the evidence doesn’t support that supposition in the least. Much appreciated. Same HC and group of players that lost to the Tyrod-lead Bills in KC in 2017. They looked utterly anemic offensively with the pedestrian(but not bad) Alex Smith at QB. The Chiefs were not considered a talented offensive unit with those players UNTIL Mahomes took over at QB. Also the casual NFL fan notion that Andy Reid is a passing game genius is wrong. Hell he had a team in KC a few years back that didn't throw a TD to a WR all season. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: When the Bills were beating KC in their own building in 2017...........with the Chiefs looking utterly punchless offensively despite having Tyreek Hill, Travis Kelce and Kareem Hunt in the lineup was ANYONE'S thought............"if only this Chiefs team had a second year QB they'd be the most dynamic offense in football!" Patrick Mahomes is a great football player. Period. It's amazing the lengths people go to defend McBeane and then in the same breath backhand them with the "well the situation McBeane was creating in Buffalo was so bad with the hirings and bad WR choices and OL choices that Mahomes would not have been able to succeed". At what point will the Bills be good enough to support a QB who has proven he can throw 50 TD passes? Right, because Alex Smith sucked and wasn’t having his best season or Mahomes as a rookie in 2017 would have been the exact same Mahomes we saw in his second year. It would kill you to give McD any credit at all for going into KC and beating a good team, wouldn’t it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 4 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Same HC and group of players that lost to the Tyrod-lead Bills in KC in 2017. They looked utterly anemic offensively with the pedestrian(but not bad) Alex Smith at QB. The Chiefs were not considered a talented offensive unit with those players UNTIL Mahomes took over at QB. Also the casual NFL fan notion that Andy Reid is a passing game genius is wrong. Hell he had a team in KC a few years back that didn't throw a TD to a WR all season. See my response above. You are impossible to have meaningful exchanges with because you SUPPOSE a rookie QB would have been the same QB and automatically have beaten the Bills and state that as fact. The Chiefs weren’t considered a talented offensive group? With a top five offense? And those four Pro Bowlers at skill positions? When you’re capable of an honest debate not dedicated to unreasonable assertions to make your points, get back to me. This is just more absurdity and not worth going any further with. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 13 minutes ago, K-9 said: See my response above. You are impossible to have meaningful exchanges with because you SUPPOSE a rookie QB would have been the same QB and automatically have beaten the Bills and state that as fact. The Chiefs weren’t considered a talented offensive group? With a top five offense? And those four Pro Bowlers at skill positions? When you’re capable of an honest debate not dedicated to unreasonable assertions to make your points, get back to me. This is just more absurdity and not worth going any further with. Ok so I will give you that the NFL's 6th highest scoring offense in 2017 was talented if you give me that the NFL's 7th highest scoring offense in 2016(that McDermott inherited) was talented. See the cop-out here is that Mahomes would have "inevitably" been plugged into a bad offensive group. McDermott made choices...........not to retain Woods and Goodwin and Watkins and he made bad choices replacing them..........so if anything saying that Mahomes wouldn't have been in a good situation is an indictment on McDermott and Beane.........not an excuse. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 Here's the deal on the latest arguments in this thread: 1. Lynn has done a good job with the Chargers. That does not mean McD has done a poor job in Buffalo. Believe it or not, two coaches can actually do a good job at the same time. 2. Mahomes looked great last year. Now go find someone who can copy a post from before the 2017 draft that predicted he would be that good his second year. There were concerns about his footwork and his coming out of a single read offense that had never sent a guy to the NFL that had any success. Every team in the league missed out, because if teams thought he'd be that good everyone would have tried to move up to get him. 3. Everyone posting on this board knows that the Bills have improvements to make. Allen is a young guy that needs to continue development, Edmunds the same. McD as a young HC the same. Everyone gets that. Everyone. 4. The Buffalo Bills of 2019 have a HC and GM going into their third year. Despite all attempts to link them to past regimes, or the owners to past ownership, such attempts are bogus and without any logic. They are carrying out their plan. The first year of the plan focused on the D and starting to get the guys they wanted in place and moving out the guys they didn't. And they made the playoffs: Let me repeat that: they made the playoffs. Playoffs. They made the playoffs. The second year was getting the future leaders for their O and D in the draft. This year is about upgrading the O to protect the young QB and give him more weapons. 5. No one yet knows how well the plan will go, no one knows yet how great the young guys will or will not be. No one knows if the plan will come to fruition or not. Most I think would agree that if the plan does not come to fruition then a new HC and/or GM will be sought although the time required to grade that is debated. But if they succeed then one can only hope that credit for that is given by all, and not just attributed to luck or whatever. That should cover it. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 30 minutes ago, K-9 said: Right, because Alex Smith sucked and wasn’t having his best season or Mahomes as a rookie in 2017 would have been the exact same Mahomes we saw in his second year. It would kill you to give McD any credit at all for going into KC and beating a good team, wouldn’t it? Actually that Chiefs team was in a tailspin......they were in the midst of losing 6 of 7 games.........it looked like a more impressive win until the lowly Jets beat the Chiefs the following week. The Jets lost 9 of 11 to finish the 2017 season......the two wins were the blowout of McDermott's Bills on TNF and that Chiefs win...........so suffice to say the Bills and Chiefs weren't playing good football at the time they played the Jets. The Chiefs win was part of a stretch of great fortune........the far-too-close home win against the 4-12 Colts and 2 games against tanking Dolphins teams....... that allowed the Bills to nose back to 9-7. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Actually that Chiefs team was in a tailspin......they were in the midst of losing 6 of 7 games.........it looked like a more impressive win until the lowly Jets beat the Chiefs the following week. The Jets lost 9 of 11 to finish the 2017 season......the two wins were the blowout of McDermott's Bills on TNF and that Chiefs win...........so suffice to say the Bills and Chiefs weren't playing good football at the time they played the Jets. The Chiefs win was part of a stretch of great fortune........the far-too-close home win against the 4-12 Colts and 2 games against tanking Dolphins teams....... that allowed the Bills to nose back to 9-7. The four wins you mention have one thing in common: they were wins. And led the team to the playoffs. Should we break down Reid and Mahomes wins based on quality of competition now? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, K-9 said: Why is it you think that those of us who don’t complain as much as you do think everything has gone “swimmingly” for McD? I don’t know a single one of his fans that think he hasn’t made mistakes or that opportunities weren’t missed. As for the rest of your post, no comment. I’ve grown to expect your myopic views on some things and they are better left alone as there is no debate value to be gained. Some people can admit shortcomings while remaining optimistic. Some are 99% negative bashing everything they can think of, but then say they are optimistic and/or hopeful. For some it’s very real, but for some it just seems to be to cover their bases. Balance is key, in my mind. Don’t fall blindly to one side or the other. . Edited June 22, 2019 by Augie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: The four wins you mention have one thing in common: they were wins. The 2017 Bills had a -57 point differential.....which was the worst by an AFC playoff team since 1989! Point differential is typically a strong indicator of team quality........so analyitically there was certainly a lot of good fortune involved in those 9 wins. By contrast the other two 9-7 Bills teams during the drought had point differentials of +54 and +111. But -57 is much better than last year where they were a -105.........that's basically averaging losing all of your 16 games by a touchdown! That number is usually indicative of a 4-5 win team but McD magic got them to 6 wins, amirite! Edited June 22, 2019 by BADOLBILZ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said: The 2017 Bills had a -57 point differential.....which was the worst by an AFC playoff team since 1989! Point differential is typically a strong indicator of team quality........so analyitically there was certainly a lot of good fortune involved in those 9 wins. By contrast the other two 9-7 Bills teams during the drought had point differentials of +54 and +111. But -57 is much better than last year where they were a -105.........that's basically averaging losing all of your 16 games by a touchdown! That number is usually indicative of a 4-5 win team but McD magic got them to 6 wins, amirite! Yes he did. They got 6 wins last year. They got 9 the year before and made the playoffs. Do you realize that? So now it's point differential that counts in your world? Ok. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Happy Gilmore said: I said not the same player if in Buffalo as in KC. Coaching, offensive philosophy, and player personnel make a huge difference. Josh Allen would be a different player in, say Baltimore, than he was in Buffalo. Just the reality of the situation. He would be the exact same player in Buffalo, but he would not have had the same statistics. Those are two different things. The whole "Yeah, he's an all-pro with [fill in the blank], but he would have sucked here" is probably the single worst take on this board, and yet I see it all the time, usually as an excuse for some egregious decision by the Bills' front office. Taken to it's absurd conclusion, this horrible line of thinking would preclude any and all comparisons of players on different teams because "[fill in the blank] would be a totally different player in [fill in the blank]." 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 I had originally wished it would have worked out that Allen could have gotten to sit behind a real pro for a good chunk of the season (or even 15 games like Mahomes did, but I’m NOT making that comparison!). Now, since he survived and seemed to grow at the end of the year, I’m happy he got the experience he did. I’m encouraged and looking forward to this year more than any in a long time. Progress. REAL progress, and I’m happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 40 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: Yes he did. They got 6 wins last year. Yes and 10 losses.......and you know what McD's 17 losses in two years have in common: they were losses! I'm sorry for trying to explain the nature of McD's scheduling good fortune in 2017........I will try to keep my responses to your takes as doddering as possible so we are on the same debate wavelength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSHMEAB Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said: @BADOLBILZ IMO, Leslie Frazier is the guy who probably needs a fire lit under him. We'll see if he is more aggressive in his defensive approach this coming season, especially since McD mentioning that he likes to see QB pressure; which is something that was missing last year. Completely agree. Maybe I'm reading too much into McD taking over the playcalling for a short time last season, but my hunch is that he was much more hands on with the defense even after the eventual switchback. What does that say about Frazier? I don't think it says anything terrific. Not sure what his deal is, but I feel like we've got to blitz more, especially with our secondary. Edited June 22, 2019 by LSHMEAB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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