Build a dominant O-Line!

[Logic]

5 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Overpay! Overpay all day!

 

2 years from now they'll look like slightly above average contracts, and the cap is only going up. 

 

There are no more than 2-3 players on this team that will need big money deals in the next 3 years, so spend away. 

 

Save me the draft picks for the expensive stuff like pass rusher, WR, and CB

I'm inclined to agree.

Particularly because we need to keep Allen upright from DAY ONE of next season, not wait around for some rookies to develop. Get me some hardened vets with the FA money (especially given the weak WR FA market) and then draft a bunch of skill players.

 

[oldmanfan]

It usually takes a while for rookie O linemen to figure it out in the NFL.  Indy has two guys in Nelson and  Smith that broke the mold, although you might have guessed Nelson would.

 

My guess is that Beane already has couple guys targeted in free agency for the O line.  I am quite sure they realize the O line needs significant upgrade, and will look more towards FA to get some experience in here.  Should they use high round picks to build the O line?  Absolutely, if they see a guy they think will be an All Pro type then go ahead and use a #9 on a G or C or T.   Talent is talent; if you can add that level of talent in front of your young QB it would definitely be worth the asset.  I just don't know if there is that level of talent in this year's draft, whereas there are a number of defensive front 7 guys that could fit the bill.

[RochesterRob]

18 minutes ago, Logic said:

There is NOTHING WORSE than watching an otherwise good football team be undone by a bad o-line. It was really painful to watch the Bills' o-line in action this season. Just gross.

That being said: If everyone wants to commit to the offensive line to the degree the Colts did -- and I agree, it's my number 1 Bills wish this offseason -- they'd better be ready to accept some silly money being given out in Free Agency and/or some premium draft picks being spent on linemen. I don't want to hear any "the 2nd round is too early for a guard!" or "they overpaid Paradis!"....if you want an o-line like Indy has, you have to pay for it, either in money or picks or both.

  You are right and if we had our QB in place before the last draft then Nelson should have been our pick if we could have leaped frogged Indy or just happened to be sitting ahead of Indy.  Heads would have exploded at the time but by November of this past year people would have enjoyed big runs by the backs and Allen being less harassed.  

[BillsVet]

18 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

Look at the Chargers....it's a scrap heap. Okung and Pouncey former high draft picks by other teams. Pouncey a cap casualty, and #15 overall. Okung was a top ten pick signed as a free agent but an all pro left tackle. Feeney a third rounder. Sam Tevi a 6th rounder. Schofield a former third rounder claimed off waivers. 

 

Again, you just have to find the pieces that fit. 

 

Maurice Pouncey requested his release from Miami. http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22775721/mike-pouncey-released-miami-dolphins-add-daniel-kilgore-trade

 

The Bills have gone about building the OL the wrong way for so many years. They've tried to buy one (Dockery, Hughes in '07) then use high picks for immediate need (Wood, Levitre '09) went cheap (Nix with Pears, Urbik, Rinehart) and now we're back to square one. 

 

There's going to be a lot of competition in the UFA market this year with teams having so much cap room.  Agree with Bandit that it's time to overpay because frankly, how do you put a true cost on keeping Allen upright and making throws downfield?  They'll do their work on guys, but going cheap isn't an option.  McBeane have put all their eggs into the 2019 basket and HAVE to win.

[MrEpsYtown]

20 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

Maurice Pouncey requested his release from Miami. http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22775721/mike-pouncey-released-miami-dolphins-add-daniel-kilgore-trade

 

The Bills have gone about building the OL the wrong way for so many years. They've tried to buy one (Dockery, Hughes in '07) then use high picks for immediate need (Wood, Levitre '09) went cheap (Nix with Pears, Urbik, Rinehart) and now we're back to square one. 

 

There's going to be a lot of competition in the UFA market this year with teams having so much cap room.  Agree with Bandit that it's time to overpay because frankly, how do you put a true cost on keeping Allen upright and making throws downfield?  They'll do their work on guys, but going cheap isn't an option.  McBeane have put all their eggs into the 2019 basket and HAVE to win.

 

I agree, but I think you have to willing to overpay in a trade or in free agency, especially while your quarterback is on a rookie deal. There is no reason not to. Overpaying in the draft is bad business as you pass on possible elite talent to fill a need. 

[BillsVet]

17 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I agree, but I think you have to willing to overpay in a trade or in free agency, especially while your quarterback is on a rookie deal. There is no reason not to. Overpaying in the draft is bad business as you pass on possible elite talent to fill a need. 

 

I'm talking specifically about overpaying in UFA, which will be required when that market opens.  The draft should typically be used to obtain players at positions that aren't available in UFA like pass rusher, perhaps OT, WR, and (forgive me BillinNYC) CB. 

 

 

[GreggTX]

I agree with this 100%. This is far and away our #1 priority. I'd love to see 3 new starters on the OL with a 1st round pick at LT and Dawkins at RT. Teller should start at one G position with a new starting G at the other and a new starting C. It might take a few games for the new line to gel, but it is necessary, IMHO.

 

Even WR is not as urgent a need with the emergence of Foster and Jones. That's not to say that WR isn't a high priority, but OL is still #1. A young RB to challenge Ivory would be good too. Also, TE could be an option if Clay doesn't rebound in 2019.

 

On defense, we need to determine if Harry Phillips can fill Kyle's shoes or we need to get a new starter at DT. Another starting CB might be in the offing, but Wallace might also be sufficient for now. I wouldn't just write the need for CB off completely just yet, however. It's too soon. In any event, we need to improve our pass rush somehow.

[Nihilarian]

3 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

Maurice Pouncey requested his release from Miami. http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22775721/mike-pouncey-released-miami-dolphins-add-daniel-kilgore-trade

 

The Bills have gone about building the OL the wrong way for so many years. They've tried to buy one (Dockery, Hughes in '07) then use high picks for immediate need (Wood, Levitre '09) went cheap (Nix with Pears, Urbik, Rinehart) and now we're back to square one. 

 

There's going to be a lot of competition in the UFA market this year with teams having so much cap room.  Agree with Bandit that it's time to overpay because frankly, how do you put a true cost on keeping Allen upright and making throws downfield?  They'll do their work on guys, but going cheap isn't an option.  McBeane have put all their eggs into the 2019 basket and HAVE to win.

High priced free agents that managed to piss off the all pro LT Jason Peters in Derrick Dockery, Langston Walker! Then let's not forget a former 14th overall first round pick brought in by Whaley in OG Chris Williams On March 12, 2014, Williams signed a four-year, $13.5 million contract with the Buffalo Bills. The deal includes $5.5 million in guaranteed money. The guy lasted an entire 3 games before an injury, and the next year he was cut. 

 

Forgive me, but I don't want to see this team over pay for offensive line players and end up getting the wrong end of the deal like they have in the past. With so many teams needing O line players and so few quality free agents I'd rather see the Bills go big in the draft and not overpay! No real five star linemen this year from what I see. 

 

First thing, if this team is going to overpay for anything ...it's for a top quality line coach who can help choose the players in the draft and undrafted free agents. Next, we all saw what having a pro bowl OG can do in helping the players around him become better players.

 

No reason not to do what the Colts did in the 2018 draft in going OG with the first pick and another OG with their second, second round pick and both offensive guards are starting this year. With two rookie offensive guards the Colts are currently fielding a top five O line and nobody sacks Andrew Luck as the Colts allowed the fewest sacks with only giving up 18 sacks all season.

 

Look at the list of teams with the lowest amount of sacks and 9 of 11 are in the playoffs. A distinct correlation in my view and the majority are pocket QBs. 

 

Colts, 18

Saints, 20

Patriots, 21 

Steelers, 24

Chiefs, 26

Ravens, 32

Panthers, 32

Bears, 33

Rams, 33

Broncos, 34

Chargers, 34

[peterpan]

On 1/6/2019 at 4:40 PM, TroutDog said:

Not being obtuse. The fact is, Beane has been involved with one draft with the Bills and that trade is part of what allowed us to move up to get a QB...and we seemingly had a replacement LT. The other losses on the line no one could see coming. 

And McDermott didn't draft the 7 guys Caorlina wanted the year where we hired Bean ten minutes after the draft and didn't let Whaley run it at all. 

 

There literally are thousands of people in this country, sitting in prison, convicted of murder, on less.circumstantial evidence, than we have where Bean was clearly involved in the 2017 Draft 

[ndirish1978]

On 1/6/2019 at 3:20 PM, peterpan said:

Don't be so obtuse.  Two drafts and two off-seasons, while trading away your franchise LT. 

 

Beane was not here in 2017, for you to base an argument on your wild speculation really discredits your point

[MrEpsYtown]

23 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

High priced free agents that managed to piss off the all pro LT Jason Peters in Derrick Dockery, Langston Walker! Then let's not forget a former 14th overall first round pick brought in by Whaley in OG Chris Williams On March 12, 2014, Williams signed a four-year, $13.5 million contract with the Buffalo Bills. The deal includes $5.5 million in guaranteed money. The guy lasted an entire 3 games before an injury, and the next year he was cut. 

 

Forgive me, but I don't want to see this team over pay for offensive line players and end up getting the wrong end of the deal like they have in the past. With so many teams needing O line players and so few quality free agents I'd rather see the Bills go big in the draft and not overpay! No real five star linemen this year from what I see. 

 

First thing, if this team is going to overpay for anything ...it's for a top quality line coach who can help choose the players in the draft and undrafted free agents. Next, we all saw what having a pro bowl OG can do in helping the players around him become better players.

 

No reason not to do what the Colts did in the 2018 draft in going OG with the first pick and another OG with their second, second round pick and both offensive guards are starting this year. With two rookie offensive guards the Colts are currently fielding a top five O line and nobody sacks Andrew Luck as the Colts allowed the fewest sacks with only giving up 18 sacks all season.

 

Look at the list of teams with the lowest amount of sacks and 9 of 11 are in the playoffs. A distinct correlation in my view and the majority are pocket QBs. 

 

Colts, 18

Saints, 20

Patriots, 21 

Steelers, 24

Chiefs, 26

Ravens, 32

Panthers, 32

Bears, 33

Rams, 33

Broncos, 34

Chargers, 34

 

Good research. 

 

I would like to add that of all of those players on all of those rosters just five guys, Russell Okung, Eric Fisher,  Ronnie Stanley, Matt Khalil and Quentin Nelson were drafted in the top ten of the NFL draft. Aside from Nelson, they are all left tackles. Fisher is largely considered a bust. Matt Khalil barely played this year and has been a huge disappointment. 

Edited January 8, 2019 by MrEpsYtown

[peterpan]

1 hour ago, ndirish1978 said:

 

Beane was not here in 2017, for you to base an argument on your wild speculation really discredits your point

You are right.  It was absolutely Whaley who found all those guys Carolina wanted and Whaley definitely orchestrated the trade up just before Carolina for Zay Jones.  I'm just wondering how Whaley did all that whilst banished from draft "war room" along with every single Bills Scout, all of what we're fired the day after the draft..  

 

 I shouldn't have assumed all those confirmed reports in the news were right

Edited January 8, 2019 by peterpan

[ndirish1978]

1 minute ago, peterpan said:

You are right.  It was absolutely Whaley who found all those guys Carolina wanted and Whaley definitely orchestrated the trade up just before Carolina for Zay Jones.  I'm just wondering how Whaley did all that whilst banished from draft "war room" along with every single Bills Scout.   I shouldn't have assumed all those confirmed reports in the news were right

 

You selling tinfoil hats?

[peterpan]

3 minutes ago, ndirish1978 said:

 

You selling tinfoil hats?

Everything I said above is well know and was widely reported at the time.  

 

There was also speculation that the bills would be fined a first round pick for tampering, but nothing ever happened with that.

[jahbonas]

Its a bit ironic that although the offensive line is the most important unit - it rarely works well in free agency (teams keep their good linmen) and you dont spend top 10 picks on offensive line.

Your line needs to be drafted -  and you get them 2nd half of rd1, in round 2,  rd 3 , rd4

[Nihilarian]

2 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

Good research. 

 

I would like to add that of all of those players on all of those rosters just five guys, Russell Okung, Eric Fisher,  Ronnie Stanley, Matt Khalil and Quentin Nelson were drafted in the top ten of the NFL draft. Aside from Nelson, they are all left tackles. Fisher is largely considered a bust. Matt Khalil barely played this year and has been a huge disappointment. 

Thank you.

 

Obviously so much depends on how good a teams scouting staff is and if they can properly evaluate a top 10 player at any position. When you draft an O lineman that early I would think that the front office would see that player as a prospective future HoFer or many time pro bowler/all pro. Nelson looks like he will fit that mold. 

 

Looking at the Saints O line they have two firsts, a second, two thirds.

 

The Patriots earliest pick is a third rounder which says that they can find above average talent without going early in the draft. I have to think that they have one of the very best O line coaches and an excellent scouting staff to do what few teams are able to do. Although, Wynn was drafted in the first round and he is currently on IR.

 

The Steelers have two first round picks at RG, OC and HoFer Mike Munchak is their line coach. I'm reading that Denver is looking at Munchak as their possible new head coach. 

 

The Chiefs have two firsts, two second round picks on their O line. LT Fisher was the first overall pick in 2013 and Andy Reid drafted him. 

 

The Ravens have a first and two thirds, LT Stanley was a 6th overall pick.

 

The Bears have a first and two second round picks on their line. 

 

The Rams have three second round picks on their line. 

 

The Chargers have two firsts and a third on their line and LT Okung was a 6th overall pick.

 

The bigger issue with the Buffalo Bills over the years as Bill from NYC pointed out that this team has been reluctant to spend a first round pick on O line players since Eric Wood (2009) and OG Ruben Brown (1995) who was a nine time pro bowler. ONE first round pick spent on the offensive line for Buffalo since 2009 and that was the second, second round pick at 28. Mike Williams drafted (2002) as a LT played at RT. 

 

Looking at the first three rounds in each draft since 2000. 

2018, QB, ILB, DT.

2017 CB, WR, OG (Dion Dawkins 2nd round)

2016 DE, ILB, DT

2015 CB, OG (John Miller 3rd round)

2014 WR, OT, LB (Cyrus Kouandjio 2nd round)

2013 QB, WR, LB, WR.

2012 DB, OG, WR. (Cordy Glenn 2nd round)

2011 DT, DB, LB. 

2010 RB, DT, DE

2009, DE, OC, DB, OG. (Eric Wood OC 2nd first round pick)(Andy Levitre OG 2nd second round pick)Levitre is still playing with Atlanta. 

2008, DB, WR, DE.

2007, RB, LB, QB. 

2006, DB, DT, DB.

2005, WR, TE.

2004, WR, QB, DT.

2003, RB, DE, LB.

2002, OT, WR, DE. (Mike Williams)

2001, DB, RB, DE, DT.

2000, DE, DB, LB. 

 

7 of 56 for the line drafted in the first three rounds. Four OGs, one OC, and TWO OTs...both busts.

 

Wood, Levitre were the best things Dick Jauron did for this team. Nix drafted Glenn. McD drafted Dawkins. 

 

 

[MrEpsYtown]

1 hour ago, Nihilarian said:

Thank you.

 

Obviously so much depends on how good a teams scouting staff is and if they can properly evaluate a top 10 player at any position. When you draft an O lineman that early I would think that the front office would see that player as a prospective future HoFer or many time pro bowler/all pro. Nelson looks like he will fit that mold. 

 

Looking at the Saints O line they have two firsts, a second, two thirds.

 

The Patriots earliest pick is a third rounder which says that they can find above average talent without going early in the draft. I have to think that they have one of the very best O line coaches and an excellent scouting staff to do what few teams are able to do. Although, Wynn was drafted in the first round and he is currently on IR.

 

The Steelers have two first round picks at RG, OC and HoFer Mike Munchak is their line coach. I'm reading that Denver is looking at Munchak as their possible new head coach. 

 

The Chiefs have two firsts, two second round picks on their O line. LT Fisher was the first overall pick in 2013 and Andy Reid drafted him. 

 

The Ravens have a first and two thirds, LT Stanley was a 6th overall pick.

 

The Bears have a first and two second round picks on their line. 

 

The Rams have three second round picks on their line. 

 

The Chargers have two firsts and a third on their line and LT Okung was a 6th overall pick.

 

The bigger issue with the Buffalo Bills over the years as Bill from NYC pointed out that this team has been reluctant to spend a first round pick on O line players since Eric Wood (2009) and OG Ruben Brown (1995) who was a nine time pro bowler. ONE first round pick spent on the offensive line for Buffalo since 2009 and that was the second, second round pick at 28. Mike Williams drafted (2002) as a LT played at RT. 

 

Looking at the first three rounds in each draft since 2000. 

2018, QB, ILB, DT.

2017 CB, WR, OG (Dion Dawkins 2nd round)

2016 DE, ILB, DT

2015 CB, OG (John Miller 3rd round)

2014 WR, OT, LB (Cyrus Kouandjio 2nd round)

2013 QB, WR, LB, WR.

2012 DB, OG, WR. (Cordy Glenn 2nd round)

2011 DT, DB, LB. 

2010 RB, DT, DE

2009, DE, OC, DB, OG. (Eric Wood OC 2nd first round pick)(Andy Levitre OG 2nd second round pick)Levitre is still playing with Atlanta. 

2008, DB, WR, DE.

2007, RB, LB, QB. 

2006, DB, DT, DB.

2005, WR, TE.

2004, WR, QB, DT.

2003, RB, DE, LB.

2002, OT, WR, DE. (Mike Williams)

2001, DB, RB, DE, DT.

2000, DE, DB, LB. 

 

7 of 56 for the line drafted in the first three rounds. Four OGs, one OC, and TWO OTs...both busts.

 

Wood, Levitre were the best things Dick Jauron did for this team. Nix drafted Glenn. McD drafted Dawkins. 

 

 

 

Great points. I do think that the reason we have been so reluctant to choose lineman in the first round is becuase we were always picking in the top ten and the value simply wasnt there. 

 

Its more compicated than that. You have to look at each draft individually. In order to draft Eric Moulds they passed on Jermaine Mayberry. In order to draft Antoine Winfield they passed on Aaron Gibson. When they did take a tackle in Mike Williams they took the wrong one. Probably should have drafted Ed Reed that year. Should they have drafted Kwame Harris over Willis McGahee? Probably could have taken Joe Staley instead of Marshawn Lynch, though Staley was considered a big reach that year. They certainly should have taken Ryan Clady or Brendan Albert over Leodis. Hindsight they definitely should have taken Tyron Smith over Dareus and they would have been the laughing stock of the league. EJ Manuel's year they passed on some damn good lineman. Unfortunately they forced themselves into a corner and taking a quarterback. 

 

My point is is that it is kind of up and down. There isn't some kind of organizational philosophy against drafting lineman. Most of the time they made the right call, if you really look back at the drafts since 96. For the most part, the guys they passed on are not good. I think they really drafted BPA for the most part. 

[thebandit27]

2 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

Thank you.

 

Obviously so much depends on how good a teams scouting staff is and if they can properly evaluate a top 10 player at any position. When you draft an O lineman that early I would think that the front office would see that player as a prospective future HoFer or many time pro bowler/all pro. Nelson looks like he will fit that mold. 

 

Looking at the Saints O line they have two firsts, a second, two thirds.

 

The Patriots earliest pick is a third rounder which says that they can find above average talent without going early in the draft. I have to think that they have one of the very best O line coaches and an excellent scouting staff to do what few teams are able to do. Although, Wynn was drafted in the first round and he is currently on IR.

 

The Steelers have two first round picks at RG, OC and HoFer Mike Munchak is their line coach. I'm reading that Denver is looking at Munchak as their possible new head coach. 

 

The Chiefs have two firsts, two second round picks on their O line. LT Fisher was the first overall pick in 2013 and Andy Reid drafted him. 

 

The Ravens have a first and two thirds, LT Stanley was a 6th overall pick.

 

The Bears have a first and two second round picks on their line. 

 

The Rams have three second round picks on their line. 

 

The Chargers have two firsts and a third on their line and LT Okung was a 6th overall pick.

 

The bigger issue with the Buffalo Bills over the years as Bill from NYC pointed out that this team has been reluctant to spend a first round pick on O line players since Eric Wood (2009) and OG Ruben Brown (1995) who was a nine time pro bowler. ONE first round pick spent on the offensive line for Buffalo since 2009 and that was the second, second round pick at 28. Mike Williams drafted (2002) as a LT played at RT. 

 

Looking at the first three rounds in each draft since 2000. 

2018, QB, ILB, DT.

2017 CB, WR, OG (Dion Dawkins 2nd round)

2016 DE, ILB, DT

2015 CB, OG (John Miller 3rd round)

2014 WR, OT, LB (Cyrus Kouandjio 2nd round)

2013 QB, WR, LB, WR.

2012 DB, OG, WR. (Cordy Glenn 2nd round)

2011 DT, DB, LB. 

2010 RB, DT, DE

2009, DE, OC, DB, OG. (Eric Wood OC 2nd first round pick)(Andy Levitre OG 2nd second round pick)Levitre is still playing with Atlanta. 

2008, DB, WR, DE.

2007, RB, LB, QB. 

2006, DB, DT, DB.

2005, WR, TE.

2004, WR, QB, DT.

2003, RB, DE, LB.

2002, OT, WR, DE. (Mike Williams)

2001, DB, RB, DE, DT.

2000, DE, DB, LB. 

 

7 of 56 for the line drafted in the first three rounds. Four OGs, one OC, and TWO OTs...both busts.

 

Wood, Levitre were the best things Dick Jauron did for this team. Nix drafted Glenn. McD drafted Dawkins. 

 

 

 

Probably worth saying: Building an OL via FA is definitely possible. The Rams did it in 2017, signing Whitworth, Sullivan, and Blythe in FA. 

 

In fact, the 2017 Rams are the exact offensive model that Buffalo should be following FA-wise and in the draft. In addition to the OL additions, they also acquired Robert Woods, Sammy Watkins, Cooper Kupp, Gerald Everett, and Tyler Higbee.

 

Basically they decided to surround their rookie QB, who was horrible in his first season, with as much offensive talent as possible.

 

And it worked.

 

Id love to see a similar effort here.

 

That's not to say that they shouldn't be drafting for the OL, just that they should be getting veteran talent in FA as much as possible to give themselves flexibility in the draft. Chasing need results in poor decisions at the podium.

Edited January 9, 2019 by thebandit27

[EmotionallyUnstable]

23 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Probably worth saying: Building an OL via FA is definitely possible. The Rams did it in 2017, signing Whitworth, Sullivan, and Blythe in FA. 

 

In fact, the 2017 Rams are the exact offensive model that Buffalo should be following FA-wise. In addition to the OL additions, they also acquired Robert Woods, Sammy Watkins, Cooper Kupp, Gerald Everett, and Tyler Higbee.

 

Basically they decided to surround their rookie QB, who was horrible in his first season, with as much offensive talent as possible.

 

And it worked.

 

Id love to see a similar effort here.

 

That's not to say that they shouldn't be drafting for the OL, just that they should be getting veteran talent in FA as much as possible to give themselves flexibility in the draft. Chasing need results in poor decisions at the podium.

 

It's totally possible, and really doesnt seem all that impractical. If we lose three starters in Mills/Miller/Clay, the draft capital and picks should potentially result in an upgrade at those positions and allow for increased talent at WR as well.

 

I know it isn't OL per say, but there is a pretty solid class of free agent TEs available this off-season. With supply up, and talent not worthy of ridiculous contracts, I could see them bringing in two via free agency. This gives them Croom/FA1/FA2 in no particular order (not advocating to drop Clay, but I could see it)

 

Getting these cost controlled, mediumly priced players at TE, gives them the flexibility to get some high level talent in the draft and a big splash WR/OL pick up, or possibly two. 

Edited January 9, 2019 by EmotionallyUnstable

[Shaw66]

On 1/5/2019 at 5:42 PM, Returntoglory said:

Watching the Colts game right now once again they put the graphic up of the offensive ranking from last year of the Colts and then with the addition of their first round pick and additional upgrades, Luck's O-Line is night and day and they are dominant!  This has to be the focus of the draft and free agency. 

One quality free agent and one high draft pick should net two starters.   That should  enough, with some growth from last season's starters.   A third new face starting would be nice, but I think two is enough.  And integrating two is possible; three new guys is like starting over, which is okay if you have to.  

 

I'd guess that among Dawkins, Bodine, Miller, Mills and Teller there are three 2019 starters.