Pegula Sports & Entertainment Hires CAA ICON to Conduct a Feasibility Study for a Potential New Bills Stadium or Major Renovations to New Era Field

[jrober38]

20 minutes ago, PittsforDave said:

Think of it as an initiation fee for your country club. My course, the initiation fee is potentially considerable.  

 

You have to pay to become part of the group. 

 

 

 

Greater Buffalo's median income is $53,000.

 

Minneapolis' median income is $73,000. 

 

Hard to imagine a place like Buffalo putting up $2500 per seat license on a 65,000 seat stadium, and then paying for tickets that double in value.

 

I get what you're saying about the Country Club. The issue is that it's meant to be exclusive. That's not a sustainable business model for an NFL team operating in a low income market. 

Edited November 28, 2018 by jrober38

[PittsforDave]

5 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

Greater Buffalo's median income is $53,000.

 

Minneapolis' median income is $73,000. 

 

Hard to imagine a place like Buffalo putting up $2500 per seat license on a 65,000 seat stadium, and then paying for tickets that double in value.

 

I get what you're saying about the Country Club. The issue is that it's meant to be exclusive. That's not a sustainable business model for an NFL team operating in a low income market. 

Good points. 

 

Didn’t realize Buffalo was so low income. $53000 average is very low.  What are these employers doing?

 

I see why welfare ticket prices exist, they’re  not sustainable without them. 

[zonabb]

Getcha wallets ready Erie County and NY taxpayers. Any consultant hired is going to recommend that his client gets "help" from taxpayers. And given that the two milquetoast, pro-corporation, lovers of transfers of wealth from taxpayers wallets to the ultra rich politicians have known this was coming per their statements today, you can bet that they've been apprised of the coming "ask" and will be "on board" with the consultants unquestioned analysis. 

 

Here's what I bet $1,000 the consultant recommends about the Bills, so save this for posterity, but also with some assumptions that are necessary to understand:

 

1. That this teams is clearly profitable now, with zero stadium debt, having bought the team for cash. It is worth by some accounts $2B, leaving the Pegulas with a substantial short term return on their investment in the hundreds of millions. Operating costs (inc. player salaries) are likely covered by the TV revenue alone. 

2. A new stadium would require debt service on the part of the Pegulas as they likely do not have $1B (hypothetical) in cash to make this purchase. 

3. If they did have cash, there are opportunity costs to consider. For them, investing that $1B in an investment that returns say even 5% annually is a better use of that money than investing in a stadium that declines in value, has high operating costs, and requires annual maintenance. Even with depreciation, it's a bad investment. 

4. That the City has been part of this portends where this is going.

 

These three issues are key to even understanding why this team would consider this study,. It is clear the city and county have been put on notice that this is happening and this is a logical step in forcing governments to get ready to cough up cash.

 

So here's what the report will say...

 

1. It won't say business as usual is OK but rather the team needs to keep up with the Krafts and Jones of the NFL.

2. A remodel of the stadium is feasible but the cost will come in very close to a new stadium.

3. A new stadium is feasible and preferred but the cost will exceed renovation of the current stadium. Given #4 above, the location will be somewhere in the City. 

4. Any investment by the Pegulas reduces their profitability and they can't do that... this is the economic development game where taxpayers get the honor of supporting billionaires

5. The govts have to help, ignoring the value of the asset, the worth of the owners, and the ability of taxpayers to pay. And more specifically, they have to help because the Pegulas can't carry the debt service and maintain existing levels of profitability. This probably won't be explicit n the report but implied. They'll want to capture all the increase in ticket and club seat and box tickets without having to pay more out of their pocket. It's socialized debt, privatized profit.

6. The report in full will never be made public, despite it's reliance on public dollars to achieve its recommendations. The above "highlights" will be pushed out instead because it's paid for by a private entity and therefore only the key recommendations that tell us to get out wallerts out will be made available.

 

The report is merely the token effort necessary to "justify" the continued taxpayer support for the NFL. 

 

[jrober38]

1 minute ago, PittsforDave said:

Good points. 

 

Didn’t realize Buffalo was so low income. $53000 average is very low.  What are these employers doing?

 

I see why welfare ticket prices exist, they’re  not sustainable without them. 

 

There's a reason the tickets are already as cheap as they are. Buffalo draws from all over WNY and Southern Ontario, but the team always has issues selling tickets late in the season.

 

The #1 priority for any stadium plan needs to involve a dome. You have to make the games in late November and December as appealing as games earlier in the season by removing the elements. People can talk about how much they love the games being outdoors, but reality is that you lose a massive portion of the population who simply aren't going to hang out outside for 6-8 hours in miserable weather (seniors, children, some women). 

[BidsJr]

14 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

Greater Buffalo's median income is $53,000.

 

Minneapolis' median income is $73,000. 

 

Hard to imagine a place like Buffalo putting up $2500 per seat license on a 65,000 seat stadium, and then paying for tickets that double in value.

 

I get what you're saying about the Country Club. The issue is that it's meant to be exclusive. That's not a sustainable business model for an NFL team operating in a low income market. 

This is in no way an apples to apples comparison.  Minneapolis St Paul is probably 5-10x the population at that increased income level.  It is far worse demographics than $53 vs $73k.  It is more like 500k at $53 vs 3million @ $73k.

 

Humongous difference.

[jrober38]

1 minute ago, BidsJr said:

This is in no way an apples to apples comparison.  Minneapolis St Paul is probably 5-10x the population at that increased income level.  It is far worse demographics than $53 vs $73k.  It is more like 500k at $53 vs 3million @ $73k.

 

Humongous difference.

 

Great point.

 

Greater Minneapolis = 3.9 million residents.

 

Greater Buffalo = 1.1 million residents.

 

Buffalo has got to be one of the smallest markets in the NFL. 

[buffalobillsfootball]

10 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

Great point.

 

Greater Minneapolis = 3.9 million residents.

 

Greater Buffalo = 1.1 million residents.

 

Buffalo has got to be one of the smallest markets in the NFL. 

 

True - Buffalo is SMALL if we only consider the population in the US but let's not forget the huge and growing population in Southern Ontario.  If we could include the population south of Hamilton - the Buffalo metro is considerably MUCH larger and more competitive.

 

 

[May Day 10]

Its larger, but we still lack the white collar/fortune 500 corporate backing and suite/amenity purchasing power.  Relying on corporations from Toronto to spend big on a Buffalo team an hour away (much more with GTA and bameday traffic/border) is fantasy.

 

A low-frills stadium focused on football game watching is what is desired.  There is certainly going to be comfort features installed.... but the level of things we see in Atlanta, Minnesota, Dallas, or SF would be a monstrous waste of money and space.  

[PetermansRedemption]

New York already takes much more than they should in taxes and gives me very little benefit back. They are just going to squander it anyways, might as well have something tangible in the area to show for it. 

[dollars 2 donuts]

1 hour ago, May Day 10 said:

Its larger, but we still lack the white collar/fortune 500 corporate backing and suite/amenity purchasing power.  Relying on corporations from Toronto to spend big on a Buffalo team an hour away (much more with GTA and bameday traffic/border) is fantasy.

 

A low-frills stadium focused on football game watching is what is desired.  There is certainly going to be comfort features installed.... but the level of things we see in Atlanta, Minnesota, Dallas, or SF would be a monstrous waste of money and space.  

 

 

I'm sorry, May Day, but you seemed to have failed to see my earlier post wherein I mentioned the new digs would be named "Duff's and Rootie's Blue Cheese Stadium."

 

[RyanC883]

22 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

Agreed that whatever weather factor there once was is overrated, and gone. A covered stadium is in order, but 70k seats is too many. The place should seat around 60k for demand/ pricing power. The whole point of a new stadium is increase corporate revenue and to be able to charge true market rate for general tickets. The current facility doesn’t support this. It has too many seats and outdated amenities.  



 

I can see the 60K point, but I think we can fill a 70K seat dome for a few reasons while still having pricing/increased revenue: 1.  more people will come to a dome game; 2.  the lux boxes at the stadium will be much better than at the Ralph, driving more corporate investment.  But I'd be fine with 60K. 

[buffalobillsfootball]

1 hour ago, May Day 10 said:

Its larger, but we still lack the white collar/fortune 500 corporate backing and suite/amenity purchasing power.  Relying on corporations from Toronto to spend big on a Buffalo team an hour away (much more with GTA and bameday traffic/border) is fantasy.

 

A low-frills stadium focused on football game watching is what is desired.  There is certainly going to be comfort features installed.... but the level of things we see in Atlanta, Minnesota, Dallas, or SF would be a monstrous waste of money and space.  

 

Agreed... yet at the end of the day - the current stadium will not last forever and will need to be replaced.... and when it does get replaced - moving it closer to the urban core and the Canadian border makes all too much sense.

 

ps: no one is calling for Jerry World... and Levi Field is nothing special

 

Edited November 28, 2018 by buffalobillsfootball

[26CornerBlitz]

 

[buffalobillsfootball]

1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

 

It's a no brainer...

[oldmanfan]

Now that you have owners committed to Buffalo for the long term, it would be the time to think bold strategies.  Here is what I'd be presenting to governments on both sides of the border:

 

I would ask for NYS and Ontario to pony up money not just for a stadium, but for design and development of rapid transit systems connecting downtown Buffalo (including the Southtowns), Toronto, and Niagara Falls.   The Niagara Frontier region could be turned into one huge tourist mecca, both in warmer and colder months. 

 

Let's say you have a long weekend in September and you could get around to each of these areas within 30 minutes by rapid rail.  You come in on a Friday, maybe take the rail up to the Falls and experience that.  Stay the night there, then rapid rail to spend Saturday in Toronto, take in a show, do some shopping, see the Metro Zoo or Science Center, Yonge Street, and such.  Maybe go to Niagara on the Lake (my daughter is a performer, and she tells me that's a highly sought gig).   Get on the rapid rail and come to downtown Buffalo for a concert that night and get dinner or wings.  Sunday you're at the Bills game and rapid transit to the airport and out.

 

Now let's say it's February.  Pretty similar, but maybe you rail down to the Southtowns for skiing or snow mobiling or such.  Go to a Sabres game instead of the Bills.  Maybe take in the Albright-Know, or check out some of the famous architecture in Buffalo.

 

The one thing I'd do different than putting a stadium in downtown would be to gut a lot of Niagara Falls downtown and put the stadium there, with overlooks of the Falls.  But I alos get focusing every thing downtown.

 

Do this right, and the entire region could become a real destination and bring loads of cash to the area as a whole. 

 

 

 

 

[buffalobillsfootball]

2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Now that you have owners committed to Buffalo for the long term, it would be the time to think bold strategies.  Here is what I'd be presenting to governments on both sides of the border:

 

I would ask for NYS and Ontario to pony up money not just for a stadium, but for design and development of rapid transit systems connecting downtown Buffalo (including the Southtowns), Toronto, and Niagara Falls.   The Niagara Frontier region could be turned into one huge tourist mecca, both in warmer and colder months. 

 

Let's say you have a long weekend in September and you could get around to each of these areas within 30 minutes by rapid rail.  You come in on a Friday, maybe take the rail up to the Falls and experience that.  Stay the night there, then rapid rail to spend Saturday in Toronto, take in a show, do some shopping, see the Metro Zoo or Science Center, Yonge Street, and such.  Maybe go to Niagara on the Lake (my daughter is a performer, and she tells me that's a highly sought gig).   Get on the rapid rail and come to downtown Buffalo for a concert that night and get dinner or wings.  Sunday you're at the Bills game and rapid transit to the airport and out.

 

Now let's say it's February.  Pretty similar, but maybe you rail down to the Southtowns for skiing or snow mobiling or such.  Go to a Sabres game instead of the Bills.  Maybe take in the Albright-Know, or check out some of the famous architecture in Buffalo.

 

The one thing I'd do different than putting a stadium in downtown would be to gut a lot of Niagara Falls downtown and put the stadium there, with overlooks of the Falls.  But I alos get focusing every thing downtown.

 

Do this right, and the entire region could become a real destination and bring loads of cash to the area as a whole. 

 

 

 

 

 

Like your thinking - big time.  This is where the Pegula's need to flex their muscle and influence both here in the states and Ontario (if they have any)...

 

 

[RochesterRob]

2 hours ago, buffalobillsfootball said:

 

True - Buffalo is SMALL if we only consider the population in the US but let's not forget the huge and growing population in Southern Ontario.  If we could include the population south of Hamilton - the Buffalo metro is considerably MUCH larger and more competitive.

 

 

  HIs perspective is lacking for whatever reason.  Just in New York there is 3 million people west of I-81 (Watertown, Syracuse, Binghamton) that could be considered potential customers along with 250,000-300,000 in NW PA.  At least a couple million people in Southern Ontario so the customer base approaches 6 million people.  If he discounts people here as not being potential customers then you have to do the same in Minn-St P.  Not all of those 73,000 dollar households will be buyers of Vikings tickets or gear.

44 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Now that you have owners committed to Buffalo for the long term, it would be the time to think bold strategies.  Here is what I'd be presenting to governments on both sides of the border:

 

I would ask for NYS and Ontario to pony up money not just for a stadium, but for design and development of rapid transit systems connecting downtown Buffalo (including the Southtowns), Toronto, and Niagara Falls.   The Niagara Frontier region could be turned into one huge tourist mecca, both in warmer and colder months. 

 

Let's say you have a long weekend in September and you could get around to each of these areas within 30 minutes by rapid rail.  You come in on a Friday, maybe take the rail up to the Falls and experience that.  Stay the night there, then rapid rail to spend Saturday in Toronto, take in a show, do some shopping, see the Metro Zoo or Science Center, Yonge Street, and such.  Maybe go to Niagara on the Lake (my daughter is a performer, and she tells me that's a highly sought gig).   Get on the rapid rail and come to downtown Buffalo for a concert that night and get dinner or wings.  Sunday you're at the Bills game and rapid transit to the airport and out.

 

Now let's say it's February.  Pretty similar, but maybe you rail down to the Southtowns for skiing or snow mobiling or such.  Go to a Sabres game instead of the Bills.  Maybe take in the Albright-Know, or check out some of the famous architecture in Buffalo.

 

The one thing I'd do different than putting a stadium in downtown would be to gut a lot of Niagara Falls downtown and put the stadium there, with overlooks of the Falls.  But I alos get focusing every thing downtown.

 

Do this right, and the entire region could become a real destination and bring loads of cash to the area as a whole. 

 

 

 

 

  Nobody is just going to put down money out of the goodness of their heart when it comes to political entities.  Best to plan for no help and be pleasantly surprised when it does come versus expecting 100's of millions for associated costs and have your hand hanging you know where expecting it will come.  Orchard Park may be awkward in its layout but it is essentially complete and those savings will loom very large as any project gets worked out.

Edited November 28, 2018 by RochesterRob

[Reed83HOF]

1 hour ago, RyanC883 said:

 

I can see the 60K point, but I think we can fill a 70K seat dome for a few reasons while still having pricing/increased revenue: 1.  more people will come to a dome game; 2.  the lux boxes at the stadium will be much better than at the Ralph, driving more corporate investment.  But I'd be fine with 60K. 

Field a good team and the fans will fill whatever size stadium we build...

[Royale with Cheese]

$540 million to repair the structure in the upper deck at New Era?  Yeah I wouldn't consider that wise move.  New stadium sounds pretty much a no brainer right now.

[RochesterRob]

6 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

Field a good team and the fans will fill whatever size stadium we build...

  I would error to the large side but not much past 70,000 seats.