A thought experiment

[TakeYouToTasker]

I offer this thread, as it's sure to come up:

 

What is the proper role of the FBI, if it encounters actual solid intelligence of a foreign entity infiltrating a Presidential campaign?

 

Bear in mind that this isn't what happened here.  In our case the FBI conspired with other intelligence agencies and various parties in order to create false and sensationalized "intelligence" in order to rig a federal election and cover up their own bad behavior and that of their superiors at the head of government.

 

I'm speaking about a fictional accounting of a situation in which the FBI acquires real, verifiable intel.

 

I look forward to your thoughts and legal opinions, amateur or otherwise.

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

If there's a CREDIBLE threat of something like that happening, I'd have no problem with them ferreting out the infiltrators.

 

But, like you said, nothing like that happened here.

 

[TakeYouToTasker]

4 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

If there's a CREDIBLE threat of something like that happening, I'd have no problem with them ferreting out the infiltrators.

 

But, like you said, nothing like that happened here.

 

 

In that instance, what is the proper approach by the FBI?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

In that instance, what is the proper approach by the FBI?

 

I'd say that the target would have to be surveilled electronically, at the very least.

 

 

[row_33]

Infiltrating as in a meme with Jesus armwrestling the Devil asking voters to let Trump win?

 

that's worth $500,000,000 in investigations...

 

 

[boyst]

The FBI is a federal police for this country and has no business:

1) overseas affairs

2) state affairs

3) origami

 

The FBI should:

1) assist with training for all levels of police forces when requested

2) maintain federal law

3) work out interstate jurisdictional squabbles

4) keep Roscoe, Ennis and Flash under control.

 

[DC Tom]

12 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

The FBI is a federal police

 

No they are not.  They are not the police.  They're not.  Don't encourage gatorman.

[GG]

I think it's the duty of law enforcement to investigate all legitimate areas of concern.  It is also their duty to suspend the investigations when there's zero evidence of said concern.

[BringBackOrton]

11 minutes ago, GG said:

I think it's the duty of law enforcement to investigate all legitimate areas of concern.  It is also their duty to suspend the investigations when there's zero evidence of said concern.

Right.  And the great debate is "Who watches the watchers?"

52 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

I offer this thread, as it's sure to come up:

 

What is the proper role of the FBI, if it encounters actual solid intelligence of a foreign entity infiltrating a Presidential campaign?

 

Bear in mind that this isn't what happened here.  In our case the FBI conspired with other intelligence agencies and various parties in order to create false and sensationalized "intelligence" in order to rig a federal election and cover up their own bad behavior and that of their superiors at the head of government.

 

I'm speaking about a fictional accounting of a situation in which the FBI acquires real, verifiable intel.

 

I look forward to your thoughts and legal opinions, amateur or otherwise.

 

As above.  The capacity for oversight in a situation like this is virtually zero. 

 

There's an alternate reality where dossiers are released to the public in 2068 about the 2016 election and who President Clinton planted in the opponents' race.  And no one cares.

[TakeYouToTasker]

16 minutes ago, GG said:

I think it's the duty of law enforcement to investigate all legitimate areas of concern.  It is also their duty to suspend the investigations when there's zero evidence of said concern.

 

Assuming an alternative universe in which the FBI acquired, through legally prescribed means, evidence that foreign agents had infiltrated the Presidential campaign of Democratic candidate Tonald Drump, in what way should their investigation/actions have proceeded differently than what happened in our reality?

[/dev/null]

21 minutes ago, GG said:

I think it's the duty of law enforcement to investigate all legitimate areas of concern.  It is also their duty to suspend the investigations when there's zero evidence of said concern.

Define legitimate

 

Is it legitimate for the FBI to investigate tax fraud?

Is it legitimate for the FEC to investigate a bombing?

Is it legitimate for the ATF to investigate a bank robbery?

Is it legitimate for the IRS to investigate gun running?

Is it legitimate for NCIS to investigate untaxed cigarette sales on an Indian Reservation?

[GG]

13 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

Assuming an alternative universe in which the FBI acquired, through legally prescribed means, evidence that foreign agents had infiltrated the Presidential campaign of Democratic candidate Tonald Drump, in what way should their investigation/actions have proceeded differently than what happened in our reality?

Again, if the facts unfolded as you described them, then FBI proceeded properly. 

 

That's not what happened. 

[Deranged Rhino]

Good topic - and tricky to answer... On the move at the moment, so I'll circle back and add more - but off the cuff:

 

If there's enough evidence to launch a legit Counterintelligence investigation into a presidential campaign, it must be launched and concluded before people go to the polls. There cannot be a delay, nor can it be done in total secrecy. Once the investigative phase is concluded - due to the enormous stakes - it must be made public with as few redactions as possible so that the public can make up their own minds before going to the polls. That presumes that the investigation can be completed in an accelerated manner (sometimes it can't)... but if it can't be completed in time, there must be some sort of joint statement of fact made by either POTUS (if he/she is not running or involved) and the leader of the minority party in the house and senate to remove as much of the political slant as possible and inform the public.  

 

...It's more complicated if the subject of the investigation is the incumbent and in control of the DOJ/FBI at the time.  

[TakeYouToTasker]

Just now, GG said:

Again, if the facts unfolded as you described them, then FBI proceeded properly. 

 

That's not what happened. 

 

Did they follow proper policy and procedure?  Does it fall into their jurisdiction? 

[DC Tom]

Just now, GG said:

Again, if the facts unfolded as you described them, then FBI proceeded properly. 

 

That's not what happened. 

 

Who are you to judge?  "Proper" is what the President says is proper.

 

[/Not fascism, not at all]

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

Did they follow proper policy and procedure?  Does it fall into their jurisdiction? 

 

The fbi has been involved in domestic counterintelligence for some time.

[TakeYouToTasker]

Just now, joesixpack said:

 

The fbi has been involved in domestic counterintelligence for some time.

 

As relates to election fraud?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

3 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

As relates to election fraud?

 

If it’s being orchestrated by a foreign power I’d assume yes.

[row_33]

16 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

As relates to election fraud?

 

people saying their side and using Facebook is not fraud.

 

(well, it's a fraudulent waste of their life to use Facebook, but that's not the point..._)

[GG]

15 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

Did they follow proper policy and procedure?  Does it fall into their jurisdiction? 

Then you have to clarify your premise, because the hypothetical scenario you described absolutely needs FBI to commence an investigation.  

 

If you're trying to build a strawman to tie it to the ongoing screw up, then don't waste my time.  

[TakeYouToTasker]

51 minutes ago, GG said:

Then you have to clarify your premise, because the hypothetical scenario you described absolutely needs FBI to commence an investigation.  

 

If you're trying to build a strawman to tie it to the ongoing screw up, then don't waste my time.  

 

Dial it back by a factor of maybe 10?

 

I pose the questions because this is how it's going to be spun, which is why it's important to discuss.

 

Now, do you want to continue to participate in good faith, or am I "wasting your time"?

[Nanker]

2 hours ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

I offer this thread, as it's sure to come up:

 

What is the proper role of the FBI, if it encounters actual solid intelligence of a foreign entity infiltrating a Presidential campaign?

 

Bear in mind that this isn't what happened here.  In our case the FBI conspired with other intelligence agencies and various parties in order to create false and sensationalized "intelligence" in order to rig a federal election and cover up their own bad behavior and that of their superiors at the head of government.

 

I'm speaking about a fictional accounting of a situation in which the FBI acquires real, verifiable intel.

 

I look forward to your thoughts and legal opinions, amateur or otherwise.

 

Glad you asked...

 

 

[B-Man]

I realize that this probably isn't the best way, but if we are talking about "proof" that a presidential campaign had been affected, rather than try and investigate and build a case against the the foreign agents, I would just release all the information immediately.

 

 

Give the American voters the facts and let it play out from there................No prosecution probably, but at least the campaign may be  made honest.

 

 

 

.

[GG]

1 hour ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

Dial it back by a factor of maybe 10?

 

I pose the questions because this is how it's going to be spun, which is why it's important to discuss.

 

Now, do you want to continue to participate in good faith, or am I "wasting your time"?

Then in that case my original response stands.  FBI should investigate credible allegations.  The allegations you described fall within FBI purview. 

[row_33]

It’s against the GOP so every lib thinks it’s righteous

 

 

[Koko78]

5 hours ago, /dev/null said:

Is it legitimate for NCIS to investigate untaxed cigarette sales on an Indian Reservation?

 

I believe they're saving that story arc for season 23.

[Doc Brown]

I'm going to wait for all the facts to come out to see if the FBI acted appropriately.  They sure botched the Hillary e-mail investigation though.

[Koko78]

6 hours ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

I offer this thread, as it's sure to come up:

 

What is the proper role of the FBI, if it encounters actual solid intelligence of a foreign entity infiltrating a Presidential campaign?

 

Bear in mind that this isn't what happened here.  In our case the FBI conspired with other intelligence agencies and various parties in order to create false and sensationalized "intelligence" in order to rig a federal election and cover up their own bad behavior and that of their superiors at the head of government.

 

I'm speaking about a fictional accounting of a situation in which the FBI acquires real, verifiable intel.

 

I look forward to your thoughts and legal opinions, amateur or otherwise.

 

 

I think it depends on how involved the infiltration is. I would hope they first go directly to the candidate for cooperation. If it needs to be made public, they should be as transparent as possible after ferreting out the infiltration, to try to ensure that the revelations impact that campaign as little as possible.

 

Of course, if made public before the election, the other candidate is going to harp on how their inept opponent allowed foreign spies into their inner circle, and thus cannot be trusted to be president and blahblahblah.

[Nanker]

7 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

I'm going to wait for all the facts to come out to see if the FBI acted appropriately.  They sure botched tanked the Hillary e-mail investigation though.

FIFY. 

[row_33]

When are all the facts going to come out, in the Great Heaven Hereafter?

 

good freakin luck

 

 

[Azalin]

On 5/21/2018 at 2:47 PM, TakeYouToTasker said:

I offer this thread, as it's sure to come up:

 

What is the proper role of the FBI, if it encounters actual solid intelligence of a foreign entity infiltrating a Presidential campaign?

 

Bear in mind that this isn't what happened here.  In our case the FBI conspired with other intelligence agencies and various parties in order to create false and sensationalized "intelligence" in order to rig a federal election and cover up their own bad behavior and that of their superiors at the head of government.

 

I'm speaking about a fictional accounting of a situation in which the FBI acquires real, verifiable intel.

 

I look forward to your thoughts and legal opinions, amateur or otherwise.

 

 

I suppose it would depend on how the intelligence was acquired, since the FBI's scope is supposed to be limited to within the US. Assuming that it was solid intel I would imagine that acquiring evidence of a foreign entity's involvement would necessitate involvement by the CIA as well. I think we're all learning a valuable lesson with everything that's coming out with regard to the supposed Russian collusion in 45's campaign, and how instead it's been people in our own government working to undermine both a presidential campaign and the subsequent administration.

 

One thing in particular that I've learned is that despite my long standing belief that there are always a few bad apples in every barrel, the apparent amount of corruption within both the FBI and the IC at large shows that I have been very naive. The phrase "drain the swamp" sounds a hell of a lot less like a cheesy slogan than it did a couple years ago.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Azalin